Lord’s Prayer Updated

[Ascetic X]

Indeed, Jesus rose from physical death, but Colossians 1:18 , is talking about rising from spiritual death, because Jesus was not the first or the second to rise from physical death.
Remember Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from physical death, long before Jesus died physically?

He…. took her by the hand and called saying, ‘Little girl arise’. - Luke 8:49-56

And remember, Jairus’s daughter, whom again was raised from physical death by Jesus, also long before Jesus Himself rose physically from death? There are more examples of people, who rose from physical death, in both the old and New Testament, but you get the point.

Jesus was the firstborn from physical death unto eternal physical life. All those others who rose from the dead had to die again physically.

 

[Jerome]

He….prayed, saying ‘O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me…. - Matthew 26:39

When Jesus drank the cup, containing the sins of all mankind, He be came a sinner, instantly died spiritually just like Adam, when Adam sinned against God. As soon as Jesus died spiritually, the door was open for him to eventually die physically. If Jesus had not died spiritually, He could not die physically, because physical death is a byproduct of spiritual death.

Sounds like the Mormon teaching that focuses the Atonement in the Garden of Gethsemane more than on the Cross? But you said you're a Baptist.

 

[BibleVendor]

I'm quite familiar with those scriptures.

I'm trying to be patient here. Tell us what sins Jesus committed. And by the way, the "cup" was not a cup of sins, but "the" cup of God's wrath.

Read Isaiah 51 and Jeremiah 25. It explains that very clearly.

You are claiming Jesus was a sinner who only resurrected spiritually.

True, Jesus never sinned, but He took upon Himself our sins and thus became a sinner, in order to pay the penalty on our behalf, which we should have paid.
You have stated that the cup, that Jesus drank in the garden was not sins, but that it was the cup of God’s wrath? Where is the contradiction? If Jesus did not take our sins, why did He have to deal with God’s wrath?
Whether Jesus drank the cup of God’s wrath or the cup of sins, the penalty was the same? Let’s be serous and not play word games, that are not helpful to anyone.

 

[BibleVendor]

Sounds like the Mormon teaching that focuses the Atonement in the Garden of Gethsemane more than on the Cross? But you said you're a Baptist.

When people are unable to argue against or discredit the truth, they switch to name calling. Most people won’t take you seriously, if you sink that low.
Lets have a civilized and respectful discussion.

 

[Ben1445]

True, Jesus never sinned, but He took upon Himself our sins and thus became a sinner, in order to pay the penalty on our behalf, which we should have paid.
You have stated that the cup, that Jesus drank in the garden was not sins, but that it was the cup of God’s wrath? Where is the contradiction? If Jesus did not take our sins, why did He have to deal with God’s wrath?
Whether Jesus drank the cup of God’s wrath or the cup of sins, the penalty was the same? Let’s be serous and not play word games, that are not helpful to anyone.

Were I to pay a fine for someone else, that would not make me the guilty party. When Jesus took our sin on Him, He did not become a sinner. He had never done anything to be a sinner. He is only, God with us, carrying our sin and not sinning.

 

[BibleVendor]

Jesus was the firstborn from physical death unto eternal physical life. All those others who rose from the dead had to die again physically.

If according to you , Jesus was the firstborn from physical death to eternal physical life, who was next? Are there other examples of this?

 

[BibleVendor]

Were I to pay a fine for someone else, that would not make me the guilty party. When Jesus took our sin on Him, He did not become a sinner. He had never done anything to be a sinner. He is only, God with us, carrying our sin and not sinning.

When the Bible says, Jesus became sin or a sinner, and you deny it, there is nothing more that I can say to you about this.

 

[Ben1445]

When the Bible says, Jesus became sin or a sinner, and you deny it, there is nothing more that I can say to you about this.

It does not say Jesus became sin or a sinner.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

There is no mention of Jesus being a sinner. There is a big difference.

 

[BibleVendor]

Bible never says Jesus became a sinner. A sinner is someone who commits sin. Jesus became sin for us and received the penalty of God’s wrath, but Jesus never sinned. He took on the sins of mankind without sinning Himself.

Bible never says Jesus died spiritually.

Psalm 75:


Isaiah 51:




1 John 3:5

But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin.


Hebrews 4:15

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.


1 Peter 3:18

For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.


Isa 53:4-6, Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The Bible is correct, when it says Jesus was without sin, He himself never sinned, but for a limited time, the very same Bible says Jesus became sin or a sinner. Jesus by definition could not be describe as a sinner, but temporarily he played the role of a sinner, to redeem the real sinners.
Both statements are true, and there is no contradiction. Don’t try to manufacture contradictions, where there is none.

 

[BibleVendor]

It does not say Jesus became sin or a sinner.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

There is no mention of Jesus being a sinner. There is a big difference.

What is the difference, of to be sin and to be a sinner? If you are running out of rational arguments, take a break and just watch & follow others.

 

[BibleVendor]

It does not say Jesus became sin or a sinner.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

There is no mention of Jesus being a sinner. There is a big difference.

You declared that there is a big difference, but fail to elaborate the big difference?

 

[Ben1445]

When the Bible says, Jesus became sin or a sinner, and you deny it, there is nothing more that I can say to you about this.

Hebrews 7:26-27
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

 

[Ben1445]

You declared that there is a big difference, but fail to elaborate the big difference?

Explain to me then when Jesus sinned.

 

[Ben1445]

What is the difference, of to be sin and to be a sinner? If you are running out of rational arguments, take a break and just watch & follow others.

It sounds like you are the one who has run out of rational arguments when the only thing you can do is tell people not to talk to you.

 

[Ben1445]

You declared that there is a big difference, but fail to elaborate the big difference?

Were I to pay a fine for someone else, that would not make me the guilty party. When Jesus took our sin on Him, He did not become a sinner. He had never done anything to be a sinner. He is only, God with us, carrying our sin and not sinning.

 

[BibleVendor]

I'm quite familiar with those scriptures.

I'm trying to be patient here. Tell us what sins Jesus committed. And by the way, the "cup" was not a cup of sins, but "the" cup of God's wrath.

Read Isaiah 51 and Jeremiah 25. It explains that very clearly.

You are claiming Jesus was a sinner who only resurrected spiritually.

I never said Jesus was only resurrected spiritually, those are your words not mine. My point is that Colossians 1:18, is not talking about the physical rising of Jesus, but His spiritual rebirth.
The fact that Jesus rose physically is not even debatable, at least among Christians. Every Christian believes and accepts it.

 

[Ben1445]

I never said Jesus was only resurrected spiritually, those are your words not mine. My point is that Colossians 1:18, is not talking about the physical rising of Jesus, but His spiritual rebirth.
The fact that Jesus rose physically is not even debatable, at least among Christians. Every Christian believes and accepts it.

How long was Jesus spiritually dead in your view?

 

[canadyjd]

As I said earlier…. Changing the words of scripture always leads to errors and ultimately, heresy.

Jesus was never a “sinner” and scripture never says he was a “sinner”.

That some are unable to comprehend the difference between God making Him “sin” (a personification) for us and Him actually “sinning” does not change the truth of scripture, it simply reveals the limits of their understanding.

When Jesus endured the cross, it wasn’t for any sin He committed. He personified our sin… our sin was being punished… God’s wrath was being poured out upon our sin, which Christ bore on the cross.

The penalty for sin is death.

If Christ had sinned, (God forgive me for even writing the words), He could only have died for His own sin.

This conversation has turned to madness.

I’m all done

Peace to you

 

[David Lamb]

True, Jesus never sinned, but He took upon Himself our sins and thus became a sinner, in order to pay the penalty on our behalf, which we should have paid.
You have stated that the cup, that Jesus drank in the garden was not sins, but that it was the cup of God’s wrath? Where is the contradiction? If Jesus did not take our sins, why did He have to deal with God’s wrath?
Whether Jesus drank the cup of God’s wrath or the cup of sins, the penalty was the same? Let’s be serous and not play word games, that are not helpful to anyone.

Yes, we are told in the Bible that Jesus Christ took His people's sins on Himself, but never, ever, do we find any Bible passage that says that He became a sinner. If He had become a sinner, then far from being Saviour, He would have needed a Saviour Himself.

 

[David Lamb]

When people are unable to argue against or discredit the truth, they switch to name calling. Most people won’t take you seriously, if you sink that low.
Lets have a civilized and respectful discussion.

But that was not name-calling. Jerome didn't call you a Mormon. He just commented that what you had written resembled Mormon teaching. Certainly saying, as you seem to, that Jesus became a sinner is not a teaching I have ever come across amongst Baptists, and I have been a Baptist for over 50 years.