Lord’s Prayer Updated

[BibleVendor]

The meaning of "blaspheme" (βλασφημέω) in the original Greek in which the NT was written (which fact you have yet to acknowledge) is to insult. (I could quote from many Greek lexicons, but surely I don't have to.) When you say that Jesus was the firstborn from the "spiritually dead," you are saying that Jesus was a lost sinner, since that is the Scriptural meaning of "spiritually dead."

So, was Jesus born spiritually dead? Absolutely not. He is the source of all spiritual life ("the way, the truth, and the life" in John 14:6), so it is impossible that He could be the firstborn of spiritual deadness. Therefore, you insulted Christ. The passage you quote from, Col. 1:18, says that Christ is firstborn from the dead, not from the "spiritually dead." He was firstborn from the literally, physically dead, meaning the first to ever rise from the physically dead.

How long was Jesus spiritually dead in your view?

Jesus was spiritually dead, from the time He took on the sin of humanity, in the garden to the time He rose from the dead, so roughly three days.

 

[BibleVendor]

Yes, we are told in the Bible that Jesus Christ took His people's sins on Himself, but never, ever, do we find any Bible passage that says that He became a sinner. If He had become a sinner, then far from being Saviour, He would have needed a Saviour Himself.

I find it hard to believe, that this should be a point of argument. I agree, that if Jesus was a sinner, who had sinned, He would have needed another savior to save Him, but Jesus became a sinner temporary , who never sinned when He took on the sin of all mankind.

 

[David Lamb]

Jesus was spiritually dead, from the time He took on the sin of humanity, in the garden to the time He rose from the dead, so roughly three days.

Can you tell us where the Bible says that Jesus was spiritually dead? If He were dead both spiritually and physically, how did He raise Himself, as the Bible tells us He did:

(Joh 10:17) "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
(Joh 10:18) No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

 

[David Lamb]

I find it hard to believe, that this should be a point of argument. I agree, that if Jesus was a sinner, who had sinned, He would have needed another savior to save Him, but Jesus became a sinner temporary , who never sinned when He took on the sin of all mankind.

In that case, why not give Bible references which show that, as you maintain, Jesus temporarily became a sinner.

 

[BibleVendor]

In that case, why not give Bible references which show that, as you maintain, Jesus temporarily became a sinner.

For He made Him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us…. - 2 Corinthians 5:21

When Jesus was made to be sin, that is when He temporarily became a sinner. But He was not a sinner originally, nor did He remain a sinner permanently, .

 

[BibleVendor]

Can you tell us where the Bible says that Jesus was spiritually dead? If He were dead both spiritually and physically, how did He raise Himself, as the Bible tells us He did:

(Joh 10:17) "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
(Joh 10:18) No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

Thanks for quoting the above scripture, but for the wrong reasons.When Jesus says, no one could take His life from Him, it is because it was impossible for Him or Adam, to die physically, without first dying spiritually.
And when Jesus voluntarily took on the sin of all mankind, He Himself opened the door to physical death or voluntarily laid down His life.
But since, His spiritual death was temporary, He was able to raise Himself physical , when He switched back to being the Son of God.

 

[BibleVendor]

Can you tell us where the Bible says that Jesus was spiritually dead? If He were dead both spiritually and physically, how did He raise Himself, as the Bible tells us He did:

(Joh 10:17) "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
(Joh 10:18) No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

Thanks for quoting the above scripture, but for the wrong reasons.

As I said earlier…. Changing the words of scripture always leads to errors and ultimately, heresy.

Jesus was never a “sinner” and scripture never says he was a “sinner”.

That some are unable to comprehend the difference between God making Him “sin” (a personification) for us and Him actually “sinning” does not change the truth of scripture, it simply reveals the limits of their understanding.

When Jesus endured the cross, it wasn’t for any sin He committed. He personified our sin… our sin was being punished… God’s wrath was being poured out upon our sin, which Christ bore on the cross.

The penalty for sin is death.

If Christ had sinned, (God forgive me for even writing the words), He could only have died for His own sin.

This conversation has turned to madness.

I’m all done

Peace to you

As I said earlier…. Changing the words of scripture always leads to errors and ultimately, heresy.

Jesus was never a “sinner” and scripture never says he was a “sinner”.

That some are unable to comprehend the difference between God making Him “sin” (a personification) for us and Him actually “sinning” does not change the truth of scripture, it simply reveals the limits of their understanding.

When Jesus endured the cross, it wasn’t for any sin He committed. He personified our sin… our sin was being punished… God’s wrath was being poured out upon our sin, which Christ bore on the cross.

The penalty for sin is death.

If Christ had sinned, (God forgive me for even writing the words), He could only have died for His own sin.

This conversation has turned to madness.

I’m all done

Peace to you

Thanks for visiting this thread. I wish you could stick around longer. Bye!

 

[BibleVendor]

Can you tell us where the Bible says that Jesus was spiritually dead? If He were dead both spiritually and physically, how did He raise Himself, as the Bible tells us He did:

(Joh 10:17) "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
(Joh 10:18) No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

Thanks for quoting the above scripture, but for the wrong reasons.

Explain to me then when Jesus sinned.

No one said Jesus sinned, but the Bible says, Jesus became sin for us, which made Him a sinner during that short period , even though He Himself never personally sinned.

 

[David Lamb]

For He made Him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us…. - 2 Corinthians 5:21

When Jesus was made to be sin, that is when He temporarily became a sinner. But He was not a sinner originally, nor did He remain a sinner permanently, .

Yes, to be sin, not to be a sinner. He committed no sin:

(1Pe 2:20) For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God.
(1Pe 2:21) For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
(1Pe 2:22) "WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH";

 

[David Lamb]

Thanks for quoting the above scripture, but for the wrong reasons.When Jesus says, no one could take His life from Him, it is because it was impossible for Him or Adam, to die physically, without first dying spiritually.
And when Jesus voluntarily took on the sin of all mankind, He Himself opened the door to physical death or voluntarily laid down His life.
But since, His spiritual death was temporary, He was able to raise Himself physical , when He switched back to being the Son of God.

But you have yet to provide any Scriptural basis for your notion that Jesus Christ died spiritually.

 

[David Lamb]

Thanks for quoting the above scripture, but for the wrong reasons.

Did you really mean to write that reply 3 times, first in a reply just to me, then in a reply to my post and a post from canadyjd, and thirdly in a reply to my post and a post from Ben1445? Just wondering, not complaining.

 

[Ben1445]

Jesus was spiritually dead, from the time He took on the sin of humanity, in the garden to the time He rose from the dead, so roughly three days.

So Jesus was spiritually dead with the thief in paradise the day that He died?

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Paradise doesn’t seem like a place for the spiritually dead.

 

[Ben1445]

For He made Him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us…. - 2 Corinthians 5:21

When Jesus was made to be sin, that is when He temporarily became a sinner. But He was not a sinner originally, nor did He remain a sinner permanently, .

No one here has denied this passage. You don’t seem to comprehend the weight of words. Nowhere does that say that Jesus was a sinner.

SIN'NER, n.

1. One that has voluntarily violated the divine law; a moral agent who has voluntarily disobeyed any divine precept, or neglected any known duty.

2. It is used in contradistinction to saint, to denote an unregenerate person; one who has not received the pardon of his sins.

3. AN offender; a criminal.


Jesus never was described being a sinner or unregenerate person.

In the sacrificial system, a lamb without blemish was brought. It was a perfect animal. When it was killed it had a blemish it has a cut throat and it is processed as a sacrifice and burned. Nowhere in that process is the lamb or any other animal offered called anything but without blemish, though they picture the carrying of the sins of the people.

 

[Ben1445]

Thanks for quoting the above scripture, but for the wrong reasons.When Jesus says, no one could take His life from Him, it is because it was impossible for Him or Adam, to die physically, without first dying spiritually.
And when Jesus voluntarily took on the sin of all mankind, He Himself opened the door to physical death or voluntarily laid down His life.
But since, His spiritual death was temporary, He was able to raise Himself physical , when He switched back to being the Son of God.

He didn’t switch back to being the Son of God. He has always been the Son of God.

 

[Ben1445]

Thanks for quoting the above scripture, but for the wrong reasons.


No one said Jesus sinned, but the Bible says, Jesus became sin for us, which made Him a sinner during that short period , even though He Himself never personally sinned.

You use the words but you don’t know what they mean.

 

[KenH]

"Our sins when laid upon Christ were yet personally ours, not his; so his righteousness when put upon us is yet personally his, not ours. What is it then?

Why, "he was made to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him," 2 Corinthians 5:21

It is therefore a justifying virtue ONLY BY IMPUTATION, or as God reckoneth it to us; even as our sins made the Lord Jesus sin, by God's reckoning of them to him.

It is absolutely necessary that this be known of us; for if the understanding be muddy as to this, it is impossible that such should be sound in the faith."

- John Bunyan, Justification by an Imputed Righteousness

 

[KenH]

But you have yet to provide any Scriptural basis for your notion that Jesus Christ died spiritually.

He can't. God is eternal and cannot die. Thus, Christ Jesus had to assume our human nature, undefiled in His case, in order to pay the sin debt of God's elect. Christ Jesus' physical body died and was then resurrected, not His eternal nature.

 

[John of Japan]

Jesus was spiritually dead, from the time He took on the sin of humanity, in the garden to the time He rose from the dead, so roughly three days.

Absolutely not. Jesus was never spiritually dead. I have already showed you that the Bible does not say that--EVER--but that He was physically dead. It is heresy to say that Jesus was spiritually dead like a lost person. (I mean by this word "heresy" in the Bible sense, which is to cause divisions. Your doctrine does that.)

This reminds me of the "God is dead" liberal theology, which goes all the way back to Nietzsche. Are you a "God is dead" progressive? If not, change your terminology.

Again, you need to humble yourself, admit that you are not the theologian or scholar you thought you were, and listen to those of us who have been doing conservative, Baptist theology for 50 years or more (David Lamb, me, others). You are making basic mistakes.

 

[John of Japan]

The Bible is correct, when it says Jesus was without sin, He himself never sinned, but for a limited time, the very same Bible says Jesus became sin or a sinner. Jesus by definition could not be describe as a sinner, but temporarily he played the role of a sinner, to redeem the real sinners.
Both statements are true, and there is no contradiction. Don’t try to manufacture contradictions, where there is none.

No, the Bible does not say "sin or a sinner." The Bible never ever says that Jesus became a sinner.

 

[John of Japan]

I find it hard to believe, that this should be a point of argument. I agree, that if Jesus was a sinner, who had sinned, He would have needed another savior to save Him, but Jesus became a sinner temporary , who never sinned when He took on the sin of all mankind.

Again, where does the Bible say Jesus "became a sinner"? Chapter and verse, please. "Became sin" and "became a sinner" are two very different meanings.