Hope of Glory
New Member
What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus and hold on and don't let go and you might be saved.
Believe on the Lord Jesus and hold on and don't let go and you might be saved.
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Lord, Lord did we not do...?
- Thread starter valueoftruth
- Start date
"So how do you know if your one of the elect?"
Why should one care? Isn't it sufficient to do what is right, to live a moral life because it is right and moral? Are not those who strive to do what is right and moral happier than those who are immoral?
If you thought you were not elect would you then strive to maximize your personal imnmorality or would you still strive for a moral life?
Read 1 John. He wrote it as a check list for knowing that one was saved. If you have a perfect score then you can know that you are saved. If not, keep working the problem and trust God.
Why should one care? Isn't it sufficient to do what is right, to live a moral life because it is right and moral? Are not those who strive to do what is right and moral happier than those who are immoral?
If you thought you were not elect would you then strive to maximize your personal imnmorality or would you still strive for a moral life?
Read 1 John. He wrote it as a check list for knowing that one was saved. If you have a perfect score then you can know that you are saved. If not, keep working the problem and trust God.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Steaver,
Christ doesn't saying, "Israel" anywhere in Matthew chapter 25. He was speaking toward his disciples as followers. He said to them, 'Ye', 'you', 'thou', many times in the context of Matthew 25. Disciples would have understood what Christ were actual talking about. They knew that Christ was speak toward them as individual. Not only toward disciples as followers, also, it apply to us as followers, that we are God's servant.
'Kingdom' is not speaking of entering millennial kingdom as what James Newman, Joey Faust, and others believe. 'Kingdom of heaven/God' is speak of eternal life.
Clear, all of three passages of Matthew chapter 25 are speak of conditional with warnings, always apply to us all, because, we are God's servant.
Matt. 25:26-30 warns us, at the judgment day, Christ shall saying to us, 'You are wicked, and lazy servant', shall be cast away into everlasting fire. Many securists dislike what Christ actual saying, so, they can twisting Christ's word, in their own interpreting in other way use for apply to a different group, not for US. No question, they KNEW this passage is speak toward us. That why they just twisting Christ's word, and to deceived people.
We must take heed what Christ actual saying, keep His word, and follow Him.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Christ doesn't saying, "Israel" anywhere in Matthew chapter 25. He was speaking toward his disciples as followers. He said to them, 'Ye', 'you', 'thou', many times in the context of Matthew 25. Disciples would have understood what Christ were actual talking about. They knew that Christ was speak toward them as individual. Not only toward disciples as followers, also, it apply to us as followers, that we are God's servant.
'Kingdom' is not speaking of entering millennial kingdom as what James Newman, Joey Faust, and others believe. 'Kingdom of heaven/God' is speak of eternal life.
Clear, all of three passages of Matthew chapter 25 are speak of conditional with warnings, always apply to us all, because, we are God's servant.
Matt. 25:26-30 warns us, at the judgment day, Christ shall saying to us, 'You are wicked, and lazy servant', shall be cast away into everlasting fire. Many securists dislike what Christ actual saying, so, they can twisting Christ's word, in their own interpreting in other way use for apply to a different group, not for US. No question, they KNEW this passage is speak toward us. That why they just twisting Christ's word, and to deceived people.
We must take heed what Christ actual saying, keep His word, and follow Him.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Are we to believe that one can say that they believe on the Lord Jesus, but at the same time continually use the Lord's name in vain, and believe it is alright to do so, and still be saved?
Can one believe on the name of Jesus, and continue to worship idols at the same time, believing that it is alright for them to do so, and be saved?
Can one believe on the name of Jesus, and continue to believe in, and have other gods also, and at the same time be saved?
Can one believe on Jesus, and continue to be an adulterer, believing it is alright to do so, and at the same time be saved?
Can one believe on Jesus name, and continue to steal from others, believing it is alright to do so, and at the same time be saved.?
How about murdering, and believing it is alright to do so, and still be saved?
Dishonoring their mother and father?
Coveting that which is not theirs?
Habitually lying?
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
Can one believe on the name of Jesus, and continue to worship idols at the same time, believing that it is alright for them to do so, and be saved?
Can one believe on the name of Jesus, and continue to believe in, and have other gods also, and at the same time be saved?
Can one believe on Jesus, and continue to be an adulterer, believing it is alright to do so, and at the same time be saved?
Can one believe on Jesus name, and continue to steal from others, believing it is alright to do so, and at the same time be saved.?
How about murdering, and believing it is alright to do so, and still be saved?
Dishonoring their mother and father?
Coveting that which is not theirs?
Habitually lying?
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
Hope of Glory
New Member
This one statement contradicts Scripture on so many points. If you think the Kingdom is something that is not real, then you deny what the Scriptures teach in plain language. (However, the way the KJV translators translated "eternal", your statement is true in some passages.)
Yes, because that work was done by the Lord Jesus Christ and our salvation is not dependent upon our works.
Our rewards, loss, or chastisement at the Judgment Seat of Christ is dependent upon our actions and attitudes.
Thank God our salvation is dependent upon the works of one who is perfect. Otherwise, we'd all be in a world of hurt.
There's not some magical line above which you're saved and below which you didn't perform well enough that decides your salvation.
Accepting the Lord Jesus as your savior determines that.
For by grace (plus nothing!) are you saved.
Believe on the Lord Jesus (plus nothing!) and you will (not may) be saved.
Don't confuse salvation and rewards.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Here is the reward for sin and rebellion --
Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Question - Why does Paul explicitly warn the saints by saying "do not be dedeived"???
Is it possible that deception was coming in on this very point??
In Christ,
Bob
The text says "Do not be deceived" to those who think the reward for sin is "heaven" and "eternal life".
Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Question - Why does Paul explicitly warn the saints by saying "do not be dedeived"???
Is it possible that deception was coming in on this very point??
In Christ,
Bob
You are seriously mistaken Hope of Glory. Perhaps you did not understand what I was saying about these individuals. I wasn't saying that they were just sinners, but that they believed it was OK for them to continue in known sin, after accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.
I met a Baptist once who basically told me, that anyone who killed themself, was doomed to hell, because they could not ask forgiveness of their sin. On the other hand, he was implying that he could be forgiven for committing adultery, becasue he would be alive to ask forgiveness after doing so. This man convinced himself that it was OK for him to commit adultery, because he could ask God for forgiveness. I told him otherwise.
It will not be well for anyone who has turned the infinite sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into a cheap get into heaven free card. There will be no excuse for those who have done so.
These are exactly the people whom Christ is addressing when He says, " I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity". Anybody who believes such, has not entered into a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. They have not spent time with Him, through the study of His word, for He is the WORD OF GOD. Thus He will say to them, " I never knew you".
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
I met a Baptist once who basically told me, that anyone who killed themself, was doomed to hell, because they could not ask forgiveness of their sin. On the other hand, he was implying that he could be forgiven for committing adultery, becasue he would be alive to ask forgiveness after doing so. This man convinced himself that it was OK for him to commit adultery, because he could ask God for forgiveness. I told him otherwise.
It will not be well for anyone who has turned the infinite sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into a cheap get into heaven free card. There will be no excuse for those who have done so.
These are exactly the people whom Christ is addressing when He says, " I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity". Anybody who believes such, has not entered into a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. They have not spent time with Him, through the study of His word, for He is the WORD OF GOD. Thus He will say to them, " I never knew you".
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
Hope of Glory
New Member
In both cases, they are committing willful sin; they are practicing lawlessness. That's one problem in many churches. Although I believe in OSAS, and I think Scripture will back it up, many churches (most of them Baptist) teach it as a license to sin. "It doesn't matter what you do, you can just ask forgiveness!"
This is disastrous teaching. The reason that so much of the Bible warns us about things is because we are responsible for our actions. Ath the Judgment Seat, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because people will see what they are missing out on.
It's about inheritance. It's a family matter. It's not common salvation.
Teaching a license to sin will leave a great burden on those who teach it.
Lawlessness leaves great responsibility for the individual as well.
This is disastrous teaching. The reason that so much of the Bible warns us about things is because we are responsible for our actions. Ath the Judgment Seat, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because people will see what they are missing out on.
It's about inheritance. It's a family matter. It's not common salvation.
Teaching a license to sin will leave a great burden on those who teach it.
Lawlessness leaves great responsibility for the individual as well.
I believe this statement is made through pure ignorance. I am not a Baptist but I have conversated with many from dozens of different churches on these Baptist boards. I have not found one who backs up what you have said about them. This is pure slander. Maybe you could give evidence supporting your words. Post a creed or a Baptist sermon or comments that support your accusation please.
God Bless!
" He came unto his own, and his own recieved him not "(John 1:11).
This doesn't say Israel. Does this mean all of us?
If by "us" you mean Christians you are gravely mistaken. Christians do not go to everlasting fire. Christians have "eternal" life. "And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish,...(John 10:28)
1) you have eternal life NOW... 2) "eternal" is unchangeable... 3) "never" does not mean someday... 4) Jesus/God cannot lie
You don't think Jesus' is telling half truths do you?
God Bless!
Great examples of those who have never been born of God. Not saved and never was. Those who are truly saved know the truth and the truth sets them free. One cannot know the truth about right and wrong but yet declare wrong to be alright.
This small sample of questions you raise are very good evangelizing tools to present to the lost. Ecspecially to those who think they are saved but their fruits declare otherwise.
Good stuff Keith!
God Bless!
Hi Bob, I am surprised that you would botch such a simple lesson that Paul is giving. 1 Cor 9:27 has nothing to do with losing salvation. The whole chapter is about Paul's ministry and his defense thereof. What Paul strives to do is live the Gospel that he preaches unless he becomes disqualified as a preacher thereof .
" Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live the gospel "(14)
But Paul wasn't just a preacher he was an apostle as well and was given a burdensome commission from God to do this task. Paul's great burden was to preach the gospel. " For necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! "(16)
17. As proof of the fact that Paul had no grounds for boasting, he adds, For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward. If it was optional for him to preach the gospel, then he would deserve remuneration. But if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. By this, the apostle is not implying that he was an unwilling servant of the Lord. He is simply drawing a distinction between what was optional for him, and what was obligatory upon him. Paul was given a stewardship to preach. That was enough. A steward recieved no pay. He was merely a slave doing his assigned task faithfully. ( Daniel R. Mitchell, Th.D. )
Paul's reward or prize he sought was not monetary or heavenly riches. He only wanted this..." What is my reward then? That I may make the gospel of Christ without charge...that I abuse not my power in the gospel " (18). He just wanted to do it for the Lord. He felt great reward in being a servant and charging nothing nor expecting anything in return. He did not want to be disqualified by recieving earthly rewards for his preaching.
Paul goes on to declare that his only mission and desire was to preach the gospel and win men to Christ. That meant being made all things to all men that some might be saved (20-22).
Paul concludes that he runs and fights and keeps under his body and brings it into subjection, " Lest...when I have preached to others , I myself should be a castaway (27).
This is not about salvation in any way shape or form! It is about Paul defending his commission as an apostle and a preacher of the gospel.
How many preachers have been castaway (their commission taken from them) because they did not live the gospel they preached? I'm sure a lot of names come to your mind.
What Paul doesn't want to happen is to have himself disqualified from preaching or the rewards he seeks, which are purely unselfesh. As for us today and preachers today the lesson is if you chose to preach the gospel you must live the gospel and Jesus does offer great rewards for service for Him, but one must follow the rules or have their services disqualified. The only true reward for preaching is the salvation of souls. Will we see much reward if we preach the gospel but do not live the gospel? I doubt it.
Bottom line, this pasage has nothing to do with a Christian losing salvation. In fact, it cannot even be remotely applied to one's salvation in any way! It is about Paul's ministry and how a preacher should behave or suffer loss either on earth or at the Judgment seat of Christ.
God Bless!
Do you know of any Christian who thinks the reward for sin is eternal life?? Are you serious?? " The wages of sin is death " isn't that one of the first things a prospective convert hears or reads before they become a new convert? If not then why would they have any inclination to recieve forgiveness? Your opinion of this passage is just plain silly!
"Do not be deceived" is for "professing Christians". I am a Christian and I am not deceived! I know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. But if I was one of these yet thought I was a Christian, then I better....
" Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates ?"(2 Cor 13:5).
....because I could just be a reprobate and might not have the Spirit of Christ in me! That means never saved and never was!
God Bless!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ok we are getting somewhere -- the "reward for evil deeds" is not "less toys" it is "hell".
Now if God should promise "reward for good deeds" (hypothetically speaking of course) where some "good deeds were better than other good deeds" then MAYBE you could begin a discussion about a REWARD or a Judgment that was simply concerned with "how many toys you get - many or few".
But if the dicussion is about "The reward for evil - the result of bad deeds" there can BE ONLY ONE reward and that is the one you identify above.
With that as our baseline of agreement lets go visit 2Cor 5 --
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ. The judgment seat was an elevated seat in the square at Corinth where Roman magistrates sat to administer justice and where the athletes who distinguished themselves in the arena received their reward. The judgment in view here is not of the unbeliever but of the believer (cf. 1 Cor. 4:5; Col 3:4). That every one may receive the things done in his body. That is, be rewarded for the deeds done in this life whether it be good or bad. While it is true that for the Christian there is "no condemnation" (Rom. 8:1), it is not correct to assume that God will not hold him responsible for the deeds done in the body. Paul has already explicated this truth in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.
Daniel R. Mitchell, Th.D. Former Professor of Theology, Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary; Retired B.A., Washington Bible College; Th.M., Capital Bible Seminary; S.T.M., Dallas Theological Seminary; Th.D., Dallas Theological Seminary.
From time to time I will quote others word for word who have devoted thousands of more hours than me to study and rightly dividing the truth when what they say is exactly how it appears to be to me as well. I post also their credentials because I feel they well deserve to be known for what they have labored in.
God Bless!
Daniel R. Mitchell, Th.D. Former Professor of Theology, Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary; Retired B.A., Washington Bible College; Th.M., Capital Bible Seminary; S.T.M., Dallas Theological Seminary; Th.D., Dallas Theological Seminary.
From time to time I will quote others word for word who have devoted thousands of more hours than me to study and rightly dividing the truth when what they say is exactly how it appears to be to me as well. I post also their credentials because I feel they well deserve to be known for what they have labored in.
God Bless!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Dispensationalists have real problem with Bible mentioned about the timing of the judgement day. Most dispensationalists are pretribs. Pretribs really have serious problem on the timing of the judgment day in the Bible. Pretribs saying that the 'judgment seat of Christ' is for Christians ONLY, 'great white throne' is for all unsaved ONLY. The problem is, does the Bible actual saying that the judgment seat of Christ placed prior tribulation comes? If so, please show us the clear verse to prove that the judgment seat of Christ shall be occur prior tribulation in the Bible.
Pretribs have actual struggling with the timing of judgment day of Psalms 96:13 "Before the LORD: for he COMETH, for he COMETH TO JUDGE the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth." Psalms 98:9 "Before the LORD; for he COMETH TO JUDGE the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity."; Daniel 7:9-10; Daniel 12:1-3; Matthew 7:21-23; Matt. 25:31-46; Luke 13:25-28; John 5:25-29; Acts 10:42; 2 Timothy 4:1; Jude 14-15; and Rev. 20:11-15.
I really don't see any series or phases of the judgement days in the Bible. I can see only ONE judgement day in the Bible.
BobRyan, I know that you are premill. But, I asking you, do you believe both 'judgment seat of Christ' & 'great white throne' are synonymous? If not, then telling me why you do not think both are synonmous, and please prove them in the Bible, that they are different, and timing.
The reason why pretribs saying, the judgement seat of Christ is for church ONLY, because Christians are already saved by Jesus Christ through the grace, so called, "Grace Age". When people who are not yet saved shall miss rapture, and will become saved during so called, 'seven year of tribulation period', then shall have another chance or opporunity for them to repent and salvation. They shall be saved, shall be at the 'judgement of nations'(Matt. 25:31-46). Pretribs have serious problem.
Dispensationalists believe when rapture occured, people shall miss rapture as the grace gone(Holy Spirit leaves according disps' teaching of 2 Thess. 2:6-7), then shall do the good works to be saved during tribulation period. That is what Dr. Peter Ruckman teaching.
Thirdly, pretribs saying that 'great white throne' is not for Church, because Christians are already saved through Jesus Christ. If so, then tell me, where in the Bible saying that 'great white throne' is NOT for Church, but for unsaved only?
Finally, I asking anyone of you, please show me in the Bible teaches there shall be two or three future judgment days beyond Christ's coming?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Pretribs have actual struggling with the timing of judgment day of Psalms 96:13 "Before the LORD: for he COMETH, for he COMETH TO JUDGE the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth." Psalms 98:9 "Before the LORD; for he COMETH TO JUDGE the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity."; Daniel 7:9-10; Daniel 12:1-3; Matthew 7:21-23; Matt. 25:31-46; Luke 13:25-28; John 5:25-29; Acts 10:42; 2 Timothy 4:1; Jude 14-15; and Rev. 20:11-15.
I really don't see any series or phases of the judgement days in the Bible. I can see only ONE judgement day in the Bible.
BobRyan, I know that you are premill. But, I asking you, do you believe both 'judgment seat of Christ' & 'great white throne' are synonymous? If not, then telling me why you do not think both are synonmous, and please prove them in the Bible, that they are different, and timing.
The reason why pretribs saying, the judgement seat of Christ is for church ONLY, because Christians are already saved by Jesus Christ through the grace, so called, "Grace Age". When people who are not yet saved shall miss rapture, and will become saved during so called, 'seven year of tribulation period', then shall have another chance or opporunity for them to repent and salvation. They shall be saved, shall be at the 'judgement of nations'(Matt. 25:31-46). Pretribs have serious problem.
Dispensationalists believe when rapture occured, people shall miss rapture as the grace gone(Holy Spirit leaves according disps' teaching of 2 Thess. 2:6-7), then shall do the good works to be saved during tribulation period. That is what Dr. Peter Ruckman teaching.
Thirdly, pretribs saying that 'great white throne' is not for Church, because Christians are already saved through Jesus Christ. If so, then tell me, where in the Bible saying that 'great white throne' is NOT for Church, but for unsaved only?
Finally, I asking anyone of you, please show me in the Bible teaches there shall be two or three future judgment days beyond Christ's coming?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Okay, that's a start.
My caution in asking was due to a situation I found myself in awhile back when I answered a question someone else had asked. The administrators didn't like my answer, and I got a nasty-gram.
An open mind (as opposed to an empty head) is essential to Biblical discussion and debate. I'm glad to have found another in you. Changing one's position is hard, but sometimes the evidence is overwhelming, and there is no other way to resopnd honestly to it but to give up a belief in favor of the proof. I've had to do it a few times, myself.
The point I was working on had to do with this post of yours:
Certainly in vv. 15-20 Jesus is speaking of false prophets. His audience would have had the Pharisees and Saducees as examples, as well as infamous OT examples such as the prophets of Baal, etc. Later on, Christians would see men such as the Judaizers (Gal 2:4-5), or those who taught that Christ had returned already (2 Thes 2:2-ff). I think your portrayal of their motives is pretty accurate.
However, in Matt 7:21-23, I'd say these people are those who are the victims of false prophets, who have been deceived by false teachings into believing they are Christians, and who have been very busy working under the impression that they were doing God's will. They will not have been diligent in studying God's word for themselves, but will have been content to accept the preacher's assurance that all is well. Unfortunately, by the time they find out otherwise, it will be too late.
You know, the point I wanted to make has eluded me. My mind was on a roll, but I don't know where it rolled off to! Maybe I'll think of it some other time.
Whether I do or not, I see the connection you made regarding the false prophets' desparation at the Judgement, and I think it has merit, but I don't think that's what's going on in Matt 7:21-23. I believe those people were just as sure of themselves as any of us are right now about the rightness of their doctrine and practice, but for a lack of a love for the truth (2 Thes 2:10), they sincerely embraced error.
I pray that none of us finds ourselves in the same situation.
In Christ,
bmerr
I believe this statement is made through pure ignorance. I am not a Baptist but I have conversated with many from dozens of different churches on these Baptist boards. I have not found one who backs up what you have said about them. This is pure slander. Maybe you could give evidence supporting your words. Post a creed or a Baptist sermon or comments that support your accusation please.
God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you steaver.....as a person who IS a baptist I must say that I was quite disturbed by what Hope of Glory posted in this regard. I have NEVER heard any baptist consciously teaching ANY passage as a "license to sin." Nor have I ever even heard anyone give that impression in any sermon or lesson Ive ever heard. In fact, we often go out of our way to be sure that people understand we do NOT believe in any license to sin, and then of course we are called legalists because of it.....
As to why I was going to post here in the first place....
In the passage originally referred to in the OP, what did those "sincere UNbelievers" base their salvation on? In that passage the people cite their good works as a reason for why they thought they were saved. IMO, we are being taught here that works are NOT a part of salvation.
Works are a part of a Christian life, but that is a slightly separate topic.
In the passage originally referred to in the OP, what did those "sincere UNbelievers" base their salvation on? In that passage the people cite their good works as a reason for why they thought they were saved. IMO, we are being taught here that works are NOT a part of salvation.
Works are a part of a Christian life, but that is a slightly separate topic.