Lordship’s “Turn From Sin” FOR Salvation

[Havensdad]

To All:

Lordship apologists continue with various mantra like comments that are disingenuous and IMO meant to distract attention away from the documented doctrinal errors of Lordship Salvation (LS). Furthermore, their extra-biblical presuppositions that flow from the circle logic of five-point Calvinism cloud and confuse what otherwise would be a balanced view of the Gospel.

The post I opened this thread with demonstrates from a published work of John MacArthur that LS is a man-centered, non-saving message that frustrates grace.

As for full disclosure of how Lordship Salvation as defined by Dr. John MacArthur is a departure from the one true Gospel of Jesus Christ I have several sources that thoroughly address this.

My book, In Defense of the Gospel (296 pages). The Revised & Expanded Edition will be published later this year.

My blog, with over three dozen articles dedicated to a thorough discussion of Lordship Salvation. The most recent, Is Lordship Salvation a "Barter" System?

Any objective readers of my book and blog note that I have quoted LS advocates liberally so that their views are portrayed accurately.

The problem for LS apologists is that the exposure of the obvious and unscriptural ramifications of LS make them very uncomfortable especially since some of them do not read and/or understand what they are trying to defend in the first place.

I will continue to let LS advocates speak for themselves and provide the Biblical Answers to Lordship Salvation.

Kind regards,


LM

To All:

Lou Martuneac wants all of you to buy his book. He seems completely incapable of posting scripture, though. In fact, his entire 296 page book "In Defense of a Forgery" (did I get that right?) Talks about Macarthur, and how MacArthur just cannot be right, because His underwear is the wrong color, and he likes beets. No Christian can like beets.

Sorry, Lou, I am not buying your book. I can get toilet paper much cheaper from Wal mart.

 

[webdog]

You are a class act, Havensdad. You are giving Christ a great name.

 

[Havensdad]

You are a class act, Havensdad. You are giving Christ a great name.

Hehe. Trying to lighten the mood. Do you need a sense of humor? I have some I can spare...
:laugh:
Quite frankly, I am just tired of Lou saying "MacArthur is wrong because I say so". Some scripture WOULD be nice.

 

[webdog]

Lightening the mood by attacking someone might give you your kicks, and that's a sad thing for a believer, but attack the position and not the individual.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Lordship apologists continue with various mantra like comments that are disingenuous and IMO meant to distract attention away from the documented doctrinal errors of Lordship Salvation (LS).

What? Asking you to demonstrate that Lordship Salvation is in error from the teachings of Jesus? How in the world is that disingenuous? Unless you think that Jesus was teaching doctrinal error, there is no way it is disingenuous.

Furthermore, their extra-biblical presuppositions that flow from the circle logic of five-point Calvinism cloud and confuse what otherwise would be a balanced view of the Gospel.

A number of us are not five-point Calvinists, so this allegation is bunk.

The post I opened this thread with demonstrates from a published work of John MacArthur that LS is a man-centered, non-saving message that frustrates grace.

You haven't shown it is contrary to the gospel of Jesus.

As for full disclosure of how Lordship Salvation as defined by Dr. John MacArthur is a departure from the one true Gospel of Jesus Christ I have several sources that thoroughly address this.

My book, In Defense of the Gospel (296 pages). The Revised & Expanded Edition will be published later this year.

Ah yes, you're selling a book...

My blog, with over three dozen articles dedicated to a thorough discussion of Lordship Salvation. The most recent, Is Lordship Salvation a "Barter" System?

But you won't discuss the teachings of Jesus here? That's not much of a defense of the gospel.

I will continue to let LS advocates speak for themselves and provide the Biblical Answers to Lordship Salvation.

Uh huh. Are you also fighting for Truth, Justice, and the American Way?

 

[annsni]

Baptist Believer, JM believes in pre faith regeneration. He believes that an upfront commitment to turn from sin happens because as annsi has stated she believes also, that person has already been given spiritual life. I agree that one spiritually alive is the ONLY person that can turn from sin...BUT...this happens AFTER faith in Christ, as an unregenerated person is incapable of doing so. Scripture teaches regeneration upon faith in Christ. JM and Lordship Salvation erroniously base their views clearly on another gospel...pre faith regeneration.

I find it telling that the votes are double for "no" in the poll at this point.

I do think that they come about the same time. God makes the heart such that it can respond to Him. Not that a person is saved without knowing it.

 

[Havensdad]

Lightening the mood by attacking someone might give you your kicks, and that's a sad thing for a believer, but attack the position and not the individual.

Bro, If joking is a sad thing for a believer, I truly feel for you. Why haven't you leveled your same criticisms against Lou? I think we all know why.

Besides, I cannot discuss nor attack His scriptural position. He refuses to elucidate it, because He knows it will be thrashed. He is just here to sell His book, and attack preachers of God's word.

 

[Jon-Marc]

What we are told to do is "repent", "believe", and "call upon the Lord." Then the Holy Spirit will work within us to make us like Christ. We cannot change ourselves; God must do it.

 

[Havensdad]

What we are told to do is "repent", "believe", and "call upon the Lord." Then the Holy Spirit will work within us to make us like Christ. We cannot change ourselves; God must do it.

AMEN!

:applause:

THAT is why the poll is skewed, BTW.

 

[Baptist Believer]

...I cannot discuss nor attack His scriptural position. He refuses to elucidate it, because He knows it will be thrashed. He is just here to sell His book...

That is certainly the way it appears. I'm happy and interested to have a discussion of the real issues. If he truly believes that Lordship Salvation is contrary to the teaching of Jesus, I'd like to hear his reasoning. I just might learn something or even change my mind! Yet, instead of actually entering into a discussion, he promotes his book, his blog (a forum he can control), and his apparent condescending tone toward those who question his position.

I realize that he has a significant amount invested in not being wrong, since he has committed himself in print to a position, and it takes enormous humility and integrity to repent and withdraw a book from publication. So I can understand why he might not want to have a real discussion of the issues.

 

[webdog]

That is certainly the way it appears. I'm happy and interested to have a discussion of the real issues. If he truly believes that Lordship Salvation is contrary to the teaching of Jesus, I'd like to hear his reasoning. I just might learn something or even change my mind! Yet, instead of actually entering into a discussion, he promotes his book, his blog (a forum he can control), and his apparent condescending tone toward those who question his position.

I realize that he has a significant amount invested in not being wrong, since he has committed himself in print to a position, and it takes enormous humility and integrity to repent and withdraw a book from publication. So I can understand why he might not want to have a real discussion of the issues.

You keep bringing up the "teachings of Jesus" as they are separate from the rest of Scripture.

Let me ask you something, is turning from sin considered a work? If not...what is it exactly? Is it "fruit"?

Since you are not a calvinist, do you believe someone can turn from sin without the working of God in their life?

 

[webdog]

Here is a site from an LS apologist. If one cannot see the errors of this doctrine, I don't know what else to say...

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/lordship.htm

It's amazing the faulty premises one needs to start with in order to believe this.

 

[Havensdad]

You keep bringing up the "teachings of Jesus" as they are separate from the rest of Scripture.

Let me ask you something, is turning from sin considered a work? If not...what is it exactly?

Since you are not a calvinist, do you believe someone can turn from sin without the working of God in their life?

"turning from sin" is not a work, any more than "having faith" is a work. They are both directions, or our "focus". "Faith" is believing and trusting something or someone.If I have "faith" in my seatbelt, I put it on.

When Christ speaks of such things, it is always in either/or categories. EITHER you have faith in the world, in your sin, etc., OR you have faith in Christ. EITHER you serve God, OR you serve the Devil. When you are saved, you do not say "Jesus save me, but I want to keep on sinning". No. You say "Jesus forgive me, a sinner".

We cannot "serve two masters". When we turn TO one, we automatically turn FROM the other. "Forsaking sin", is not an action, any more than faith is an action. "Forsaking sin" is a PART OF faith, which always shows itself in action.

 

[Havensdad]

Here is a site from an LS apologist. If one cannot see the errors of this doctrine, I don't know what else to say...

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/lordship.htm

It's amazing the faulty premises one needs to start with in order to believe this.

This guy does not know what he is talking about. If you are going to point people there for our position, I am going to point people to Zane Hodges and Rob Bell for yours...

 

[webdog]

"turning from sin" is not a work, any more than "having faith" is a work. They are both directions, or our "focus". "Faith" is believing and trusting something or someone.If I have "faith" in my seatbelt, I put it on.

Turning from sin is only a "direction"? Can you elaborate on that? Why is turning from sin considered a "fruit" in Scripture...and how is "fruit" not associated with works?

When Christ speaks of such things, it is always in either/or categories. EITHER you have faith in the world, in your sin, etc., OR you have faith in Christ. EITHER you serve God, OR you serve the Devil. When you are saved, you do not say "Jesus save me, but I want to keep on sinning". No. You say "Jesus forgive me, a sinner".

BINGO! This is the heart of what true repentance entails! It is turning one's being from self centered to God centered. Turning from sin is a RESULT of this faith / repentance, NOT a prerequisite for salvation.

We cannot "serve two masters". When we turn TO one, we automatically turn FROM the other. "Forsaking sin", is not an action, any more than faith is an action. "Forsaking sin" is a PART OF faith, which always shows itself in action.

What happens when a beleiver sins...are they no longer part of The Master? I disagree that faith always shows itself in action. One only has to read the biblical accounts of Lot and David to see this is false.

 

[Havensdad]

Turning from sin is only a "direction"? Can you elaborate on that? Why is turning from sin considered a "fruit" in Scripture...and how is "fruit" not associated with works?

You are confusing "turning from sin" (a matter of the will/mind/heart) and "physically stopping ones sinning". Living righteously and not sinning is a fruit of salvation. Turning ones focus from sin to God is part of faith and repentance.

BINGO! This is the heart of what true repentance entails! It is turning one's being from self centered to God centered. Turning from sin is a RESULT of this faith / repentance, NOT a prerequisite for salvation.

I agree. We turn our focus from sin, to God. This is "repentance", a changing of ones mind from the things of the world (sin) to the things of God (or more precisely, God himself as revealed in Christ). This is what L.S. teaches.

What happens when a beleiver sins...are they no longer part of The Master? I disagree that faith always shows itself in action. One only has to read the biblical accounts of Lot and David to see this is false.

No. We know from scripture, that when it speaks of repentance, it speaks about it as an ongoing thing. We will continue to stumble and fall. The mark of the believer is NOT that he "stops sinning", but rather that he continues to repent and have faith. We continually turn ourselves from things in the world, TO Christ.

This is what we see with David for example. Yet David always turned back to God: God made sure of that. When David sinned with Bathsheba, God sent Nathan to place David back on the path.

Faith DOES always show itself in action though; even GES churches teach this. When we sin, for example, by stealing, it is because of a lack of faith in God that He will provide for us. As scripture says, 1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him"

 

[Baptist Believer]

You keep bringing up the "teachings of Jesus" as they are separate from the rest of Scripture.

Not separate, but certainly definitive when we are discussing The Gospel According to Jesus.

Moreover, if Jesus is indeed the very incarnation of God who came to seek and save those who are perishing, don't you think His teaching on the subject, as recording in the gospels, is highly relevant?

Let me ask you something, is turning from sin considered a work?

It is an effort, certainly. I realize that the term "work" is heavily loaded with theological baggage, but it could also be considered a "work" in a limited fashion. But it is not earning or merit.

Jesus teaches that effort to enter into the narrow gate/door is required. (Luke 13:24) Furthermore, Jesus called people to leave their old lives behind and follow Him. The teachings of Jesus clearly indicate that those who wish to enter into Christ's life must turn from their old ways to new ways.

If not...what is it exactly? Is it "fruit"?

I think it is also fruit.

Since you are not a calvinist, do you believe someone can turn from sin without the working of God in their life?

No. God's Spirit must give someone the ability to repent, but the choice is still up to them. They can certainly reject the Spirit's work.

 

[EdSutton]

To All:

Lou Martuneac wants all of you to buy his book. He seems completely incapable of posting scripture, though. In fact, his entire 296 page book "In Defense of a Forgery" (did I get that right?) Talks about Macarthur, and how MacArthur just cannot be right, because His underwear is the wrong color, and he likes beets. No Christian can like beets.

Sorry, Lou, I am not buying your book. I can get toilet paper much cheaper from Wal mart.

You have the right to get paper anywhere you wish, or use any you have purchased, for that matter, for any purpose.

However, whether or not one agrees or disagrees theologically with either Lou Martuneac, Havensdad, or John MacArthur, this post was entirely uncalled for!

Ed

 

[Havensdad]

You have the right to get paper anywhere you wish, or use any you have purchased, for that matter, for any purpose.

However, whether or not one agrees or disagrees theologically with either Lou Martuneac, Havensdad, or John MacArthur, this post was entirely uncalled for!

Ed

Ed,

So was this one:

Lordship apologists continue with various mantra like comments that are disingenuous

Disingenuous: Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating: “an ambitious, disingenuous, philistine, and hypocritical operator, who … exemplified … the most disagreeable traits of his time” (David Cannadine).

Now, just because Mr. Martuneac wishes to veil his insults in more highbrow language, that some might not fully appreciate, in no way lessens what he is saying.

 

[Havensdad]

Besides I have been reading Martin Luther for three weeks. That was tame!