Lordship’s “Turn From Sin” FOR Salvation

[skypair]

Although this subject has been debated ad nauseam, it is VERY clear in scripture, that salvation and discipleship cannot be separated.

I beg to disagree, dear Hdad.

Acts 2:38, answering "What shall we do" to receive this salvation is pretty clear. "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

No mention of discipleship there. How about the Philippian jailer and his family, Acts 16:30 -- "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Is there mention of discipleship in what is, perhaps, the plainest presentation of the gospel in scripture, 1Cor 15:1-8? No. Paul did become a "disciple" and "apostle" but only after spending a 3 years in the wilderness studying and learning from Christ, Gal 1:17-18.

Salvation is finding out what Christ has done for you -- discipleship is learning how to live in the light of that knowledge. You could actually omit discipleship (re: the thief on the cross, etal.) and still be saved. But the call of Christ is to 1) "unity of the Spirit" first (Eph 4:3) and then to 2) "unity in the knowledge and faith of Christ" (Eph 4:13) "for the perfecting of the saints."

BTW, that is why Peter says "make your calling [salvation] and election [discipleship] sure."

skypair

 

[Havensdad]

Ed,

The reason I quoted the verb form, is that MacArthur is referring to the verb form. I really don't care what Mr. Martuneac does. It really does not matter either way: both definitions include abhorrence of one's past sins IN the definition, not as some kind of "fruit"

In regards to the word "repent", I just cannot disagree with you more. You must take scripture as a whole on these things.

For instance, "Noieo" is used in terms of salvation, not just as one of the roots of "repent". Notice...

Joh 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."

Notice the "noieo" is from the heart, not from the head. They would not "understand" from their heart, and turn. Turn from what? Lets look at "repentance"in action...

Luk 5:8 But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord."

Luk 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other.

Luk 7:37 And behold, a woman of the city, who was a sinner, when she learned that he was reclining at table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment,
Luk 7:38 and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head and kissed his feet and anointed them with the ointment.
Luk 7:48 And he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

In the passages above, we see biblical repentance. All of them are obviously convicted over their sins. Jesus said that "understanding with your heart(innermost being) is necessary to "turn", NOT "head knowledge". This seems to point to repentance being exactly what Macarthur describes...a "change of the heart", which LEADS to a change in action (such as the woman weeping and wiping Jesus' feet). When taken with Jesus deriding of the people who "honor Him" with their "lips" but their "Hearts are far from me", it seems to fall directly in line with what the L.S. people are saying.

Can I ask you Ed, what you do with all of the passages, that are found in MOST of the books of the Bible, which seem to say those who are "saved" but keep on doing the same old things are "appointed their portion with the hypocrites", "cast into the fire", etc.? What about fruit, Ed? Trees that do not bear fruit are cut down and thrown in the fire.

BTW, I call it "Cheap Grace", because the grace they espouse is NOT the grace offered by God. I believe in "Free Grace". I just don't believe in "Cheap" (ineffectual) grace. God does not save us and leave us to wander around aimlessly. Those who are His are "Disciplined" and "instructed", and scripture is very clear if you are NOT, you are NO SON.

 

[Havensdad]

I beg to disagree, dear Hdad.

Acts 2:38, answering "What shall we do" to receive this salvation is pretty clear. "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

And then He said "And now you have to decide whether you want to become a disciple...wait, thats not there?!"

Repentance and belief brings about salvation, and it is at that moment you become a disciple.

No mention of discipleship there. How about the Philippian jailer and his family, Acts 16:30 -- "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

And then He said "Go about your life, now, and someday you may decide to follow Christ, and become his disciple!" Wait, that not there EITHER....

Is there mention of discipleship in what is, perhaps, the plainest presentation of the gospel in scripture, 1Cor 15:1-8? No.

Actually there is. Let me show you.

1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

{break: Hmm. I wonder what He means by unless you "believed in vain"(the word "vain" means idly, or lightly, without success) Oh well, lets keep reading}
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1Co 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

Hmm. but what about that "vain" thing? And why did we stop there? There is no natural break. In fact, the next sentence starts with "for" indicating a continuation of THIS thought. Lets keep reading a couple of verses then...

1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

O.k. Lets look at some things from the verses above, and list out some points...

#1 You are "being saved" IF you "hold fast", and your belief is not "in vain".
#2 In verse 10, Paul states that HIS belief was not "in vain"
#3 The REASON Paul states his belief was not "in vain", was because He "worked". In fact, the word "contrary" in the verses, would mean that in this context producing "works" is the OPPOSITE of "in vain".
#4 These works that were produced, were NOT something He "chose", or that He could take "glory" in. Why? Because it was God IN HIM that performed those works.

So again, discipleship and salvation, cannot be separated. It is TRUE, that we are saved by grace through faith alone. But those who are not "disciplined" and are not "instructed", are NOT SONS according to scripture.

Paul did become a "disciple" and "apostle" but only after spending a 3 years in the wilderness studying and learning from Christ, Gal 1:17-18.

Paul became a "follower" of Christ, the moment He was saved. Jesus told Him to go to Ananias, and he did so.

Salvation is finding out what Christ has done for you -- discipleship is learning how to live in the light of that knowledge. You could actually omit discipleship (re: the thief on the cross, etal.) and still be saved. But the call of Christ is to 1) "unity of the Spirit" first (Eph 4:3) and then to 2) "unity in the knowledge and faith of Christ" (Eph 4:13) "for the perfecting of the saints."

BTW, that is why Peter says "make your calling [salvation] and election [discipleship] sure."

skypair

The word "disciple", means a follower. That is how scripture uses it. When Paul comes across other people in Acts, who are"saved", Luke (the writer of Acts) calls them "disciples". We are led by God through the Holy Spirit. Scripture states that ALL believers are indwelt by and led by the Spirit.

Paul is VERY clear that discipleship is not the following of other "Christians". In fact, if you read the first part of 1 Corinthians you will see the very idea of this angers Paul. We are disciples of CHRIST, not of men.

Our Sanctification (growing in our walk, a.k.a discipleship) comes directly from the Spirit of God.
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
That is passive. We are not active participants, as Paul notes in 1 Co above.

Also,

Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith--

We "grow in our walk", or become "perfected" the same way we were SAVED according to Paul. The idea that it is some separate process of rules or some separate decision one makes, is clearly condemned here.

All of this to say: at the moment of Salvation, we become disciples.

 

[J.D.]

And then He said "And now you have to decide whether you want to become a disciple...wait, thats not there?!"

Repentance and belief brings about salvation, and it is at that moment you become a disciple.


And then He said "Go about your life, now, and someday you may decide to follow Christ, and become his disciple!" Wait, that not there EITHER....


Actually there is. Let me show you.

1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

{break: Hmm. I wonder what He means by unless you "believed in vain"(the word "vain" means idly, or lightly, without success) Oh well, lets keep reading}
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1Co 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

Hmm. but what about that "vain" thing? And why did we stop there? There is no natural break. In fact, the next sentence starts with "for" indicating a continuation of THIS thought. Lets keep reading a couple of verses then...

1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

O.k. Lets look at some things from the verses above, and list out some points...

#1 You are "being saved" IF you "hold fast", and your belief is not "in vain".
#2 In verse 10, Paul states that HIS belief was not "in vain"
#3 The REASON Paul states his belief was not "in vain", was because He "worked". In fact, the word "contrary" in the verses, would mean that in this context producing "works" is the OPPOSITE of "in vain".
#4 These works that were produced, were NOT something He "chose", or that He could take "glory" in. Why? Because it was God IN HIM that performed those works.

So again, discipleship and salvation, cannot be separated. It is TRUE, that we are saved by grace through faith alone. But those who are not "disciplined" and are not "instructed", are NOT SONS according to scripture.


Paul became a "follower" of Christ, the moment He was saved. Jesus told Him to go to Ananias, and he did so.



The word "disciple", means a follower. That is how scripture uses it. When Paul comes across other people in Acts, who are"saved", Luke (the writer of Acts) calls them "disciples". We are led by God through the Holy Spirit. Scripture states that ALL believers are indwelt by and led by the Spirit.

Paul is VERY clear that discipleship is not the following of other "Christians". In fact, if you read the first part of 1 Corinthians you will see the very idea of this angers Paul. We are disciples of CHRIST, not of men.

Our Sanctification (growing in our walk, a.k.a discipleship) comes directly from the Spirit of God.
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
That is passive. We are not active participants, as Paul notes in 1 Co above.

Also,

Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith--

We "grow in our walk", or become "perfected" the same way we were SAVED according to Paul. The idea that it is some separate process of rules or some separate decision one makes, is clearly condemned here.

All of this to say: at the moment of Salvation, we become disciples.

Very good explanation of the scripture!

 

[JustChristian]

Sorry HD, but you are in error because you who have been deceived by the teaching of LS. LS is rooted in the extra-biblical presuppositions of the circle logic of five point Calvinism. You think the extra-biblical presuppositions negate and/or change the obvious works based teaching of LS. That is sad and unfortunate.

Did you notice that I used quotation marks in my article? That indicates that those things are contained in the book which I cited them from. Ans while we are citing from MacArthur's book let's add the followng from the same page (#178), "Repentance is...a redirection of the human will, a purposeful decision to forsake all unrighteousness and pursue righteousness instead."

So, it is very obvious that MacArthur's LS repentance has as much or more to do with changing the behavior FOR salvation as it does with "changing the mind." There is no way around it: LS conditions salvation upon a lost man's commtment to change his behavior.


LM

PS: What ever "sin loving gospel" you refer to, I have no affinity for.

Lordship Salvation has nothing necessarily to do with Calvinism. It's simply the Biblical gospel. It's the gospel I believed in when 50 years ago I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior. For all those years I've taken the Lordship aspect very seriously. That doesn't mean that I've been perfect but when I strayed I at some point became ashamed of my behavior and came back to Him. Salvation isn't just being given a passport to Heaven. Salvation is about living the Christian life. This has nothing to do with the 5 points.

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

What commandments? Very simple. Love God and love your neighbor. If we accept Christ as our Lord (meaning repent of our sins as well) and Savior (meaning we're not saving ourselves through works) then we are saved. It really is simple. In fact.

Mar 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and [his] disciples rebuked those that brought [them].
Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.


What I have outlined is the simple faith that even a child can understand.

 

[pinoybaptist]

And therein I think is one more root of this matter. LM's aversion to the doctrines of JM is a manifestation of his disdain for Calvinism.

Here's my take on what JM is teaching: In my neck of Baptist woods, it's called gospel salvation. Apart and distinct from eternal salvation.

Commitments, obedience, and discipleship, as well as submission to His Lordship, are requirements for those who have been told of their eternal salvation, have heard the gospel, and profess to love Christ.

Again, I reiterate. When Jesus Christ and His apostles stood on Mt. Olivet, prior to His ascension AFTER (not yelling, just emphasizing) He shed His blood on the cross here in time and He uttered "it is finished) there were NOBODY ELSE besides Him, the Apostles, and the rest of the 120 who were in the upper room, knew of a risen Savior, and a finished salvation, IN ALL THE EARTH, or all the world, for the benefit of Arminians.

Therefore, the Lord's instructions, were to go, teach, baptize. Not go, save, teach, then baptize, because He had already done the eternal saving of His people's souls, even those that were yet to be born, unless He had to be crucified again for them.

From that point on, the task for His church was to go, teach, baptize. And those who obey will be saved, in the gospel sense. Saved from an untoward generation, saved from false gods (remember there was no Christianity at yet with all its divisions and "learned" men) and false religions and philosophies.

If they profess Christ as Savior, and as their Lord, then it is incumbent upon them to repent, obey, and submit to Christ.

 

[webdog]

Here's my take on what JM is teaching: In my neck of Baptist woods, it's called gospel salvation. Apart and distinct from eternal salvation.

I knew Lordship Salvation was false doctrine, but this takes it to a whole new level.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

BB: You wrote,

“Lordship Salvation has nothing necessarily to do with Calvinism.”

The roots of Lordship Salvation are found in the tenets of Calvinism. Richard P. Belcher is a committed advocate of Lordship Salvation. Belcher explains the connection:

Lordship Salvation flows from a Calvinistic foundation. God has chosen people and He will save them. He regenerates them and grants them the gifts of repentance and faith. Such a work of salvation transforms them...Through trials, difficulties, and even failures, they are not only eternally secure but will persevere in holiness and faith. (A Layman’s Guide to the Lordship Salvation Controversy)

In reference to that debate, in the context of the Reformed origins and current support of Lordship, Dr. Robert Lightner wrote,

The lordship salvation view did not begin in the 1950s. In reality the view is as old as covenant reformed theology, with which it is very compatible, although not all who embrace a nondispensational theology subscribe to lordship salvation, and some dispensationalists embrace it. Chantry was right when he said lordship salvation “is largely associated with Reformed theology (and rightly so).” Supportive of this is the fact that the most recent full-scale defense of lordship salvation from one who claims to be a dispensationalist cites dozens of Reformed writers such as O. T. Allis, Berkhof, Boice, C. Hodge, J. I. Packer, Pink, and Warfield. (Sin, the Savior, and Salvation, pp. 203-4.)

In the latter portion of the quote above Dr. Lightner refers first to Walter J. Chantry who authored Today’s Gospel: Authentic or Synthetic, a pro-lordship book published in 1970. He then refers to “the most recent full-scale defense of lordship salvation,” which is John MacArthur’s The Gospel According to Jesus.

LM

 

[Lou Martuneac]

“The gospel call of Jesus was a call to forsake sin as much as it was a summons to believe in Him. It was a call to turn from sin. From His first message to His last, the Savior’s theme was calling sinners to turn from their sin, to embrace God, to pursue righteousness. It was not only that they had a new perspective on who He was, but that they turn from sin to follow Him.” (John MacArthur: The Call to Repentance, Part 3 from the four sermon series on the Lordship of Christ.)

In the sermon John MacArthur speaks of the Gospel, what he considers God’s redemptive plan for the lost. The message FOR salvation, as defined MacArthur, equates a change in behavior as co-equal with believing. The Gospel according to John MacArthur calls on the lost to “forsake sin, turn from sin, and pursue righteousness.”

This is a message that conditions eternal salvation on the lost man making a commitment to “forsake” (stop) sinning, start obeying and keep obeying over a life time. That is WORKS salvation! Lordship Salvation is a corruption of the “simplicity that is in Christ,” (2 Cor. 11:3).


LM

 

[Jarthur001]

“The gospel call of Jesus was a call to forsake sin as much as it was a summons to believe in Him. It was a call to turn from sin. From His first message to His last, the Savior’s theme was calling sinners to turn from their sin, to embrace God, to pursue righteousness. It was not only that they had a new perspective on who He was, but that they turn from sin to follow Him.” (John MacArthur: The Call to Repentance, Part 3 from the four sermon series on the Lordship of Christ.)

In the sermon John MacArthur speaks of the Gospel, what he considers God’s redemptive plan for the lost. The message FOR salvation, as defined MacArthur, equates a change in behavior as co-equal with believing. The Gospel according to John MacArthur calls on the lost to “forsake sin, turn from sin, and pursue righteousness.”

[/QUOTE]

I agree with MacArthur's statement, and you are wrong it has nothing to do with works.

It is clear you don't understand what salvation is. We do not become a believer just for a ticket to Heaven. Ask yourself...."Being saved from what?" Saved from Hell? NO!!


We are saved from sin. We are saved from the thing that places us in Hell.

MacArthur never says man must stop sinning in order to be saved from sin, but this is the reason behind the sinner believing. Believing in....Christ as your own help to be saved from your sin. Not believing the facts about what Christ has done. The Devil believes the facts, but the Devil sees no need to be saved from sin.
The sinner takes Christ, for his desire is to please God and be whole. Again, this does not mean he is prefect.

Lou, Now would be a good time for you to repent from relentless attacks and misleading others. It is my guess you will not stop, because no matter how many people PROVE you are wrong, you believe what you believe because of your pride. Loss the pride Lou.

 

[webdog]

Are you the pot or kettle, James?

 

[Lou Martuneac]

“The gospel call of Jesus was a call to forsake sin as much as it was a summons to believe in Him. It was a call to turn from sin. From His first message to His last, the Savior’s theme was calling sinners to turn from their sin, to embrace God, to pursue righteousness. It was not only that they had a new perspective on who He was, but that they turn from sin to follow Him.” (John MacArthur: The Call to Repentance, Part 3 from the four sermon series on the Lordship of Christ.)

I know you men who are loyal to MacArthur and LS are having hard time with the documented proof and reality of this works based teaching.

The LS Gospel calls on lost men to resolve to stop “forsake” sinning FOR salvation. It is the clear and obvious teaching of LS. It is WORKS salvation!

LS corrupts the “simplicity that is in Christ,” (2 Cor. 11:3).


LM

 

[pinoybaptist]

I knew Lordship Salvation was false doctrine, but this takes it to a whole new level.

Not really, web.

In your neck of Baptist woods, you probably call it "Discipling". And when the professing believer does not seem to be responding correctly you "doubt" whether or not the professing one is truly born again, and when more discipling doesn't seem to work, you resort to what the Bible says, not verbatim, "turn him over to the devil".

 

[pinoybaptist]

I know you men who are loyal to MacArthur and LS are having hard time with the documented proof and reality of this works based teaching.

The LS Gospel calls on lost men to resolve to stop “forsake” sinning FOR salvation. It is the clear and obvious teaching of LS. It is WORKS salvation!

LS corrupts the “simplicity that is in Christ,” (2 Cor. 11:3).


LM

Lou:

You bolded in your own quote what you are missing.

JM said it was the "gospel call" of Jesus to sinners. A good news. Like: hey, guys, here's this good news that I brought to you from Heaven, my Father's kingdom. We have agreed that I am going to be your "cleft in the rock" where you will be hidden like Moses from the lightnings of God's wrath. I will wash your sins away with my own blood, and afterwards I will be your Advocate in heaven.
Now, like I said to the woman: "Go and sin no more".

 

[skypair]

Oops -- double post. :laugh: Cheerio!

 

[skypair]

And then He said "And now you have to decide whether you want to become a disciple...wait, thats not there?!"

Top of the morning to you, Hdad! :wavey:

Well, again, silence is not an affirmative argument. In fact, it begs the question whether or not discipleship is necessary to salvation.

1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

Even I thought to include this so I am glad to say what I see as well.

Here's the order I see Paul speaking of: 1) believe unto salvation, 2) "hold fast" that belief, and 3) that will produce works. IOW, I do not see the direct connection between believing to salvation and works if there is not a "holding fast." And, in fact, we are taught how to hold fast in 2Pet 1:4-10.

It is TRUE, that we are saved by grace through faith alone.

I've always thought this saying was too glib -- "We're saved by grace alone through faith alone..." Perthaps LS explains it . Cause, see, if you must have both, then neither one is "alone," is it. If salvation is "given," "all of God," then that's it. If salvation depends on "faith alone," then at the very least, grace wasn't "alone." Have you figured it out?

Isn't this the same argument Paul makes in Rom 4:16 where he summarizes "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;..." Truly, isn't salvation by "faith alone" that it might be given by "grace?" Isn't what Paul is saying is in contradistinction to grace --- isn't it "works of the law" rather than "works of faith?"

Here's what I find unsettling about LS salvation begins with a "work of faith" --- "confessing with the mouth" that which is in the heart. But to the Calvie/LS POV, all works are disallowed because Paul says salvation is either of works or grace. But Paul understood "works" to be "works of the law." He did not discount that work which is of faith. And so "believing NOT in vain" would be doing a "work of faith" but believing in vain" would be omitting to respond in faith. So maybe you can explain this all to me??????????? Especially if you believe the "call" is to discipleship.

When Paul comes across other people in Acts, who are"saved", Luke (the writer of Acts) calls them "disciples".

Yeah, they were OT believers (saved under the "law") but disciples of John the Baptist. Does that explain 1) how they can be disciples of someone other than Christ and 2) be saved?

Scripture states that ALL believers are indwelt by and led by the Spirit.

Not those disciples. They had never heard of the Spirit but received Him upon naming Christ as Savior. These would be perfect examples of "branches" that were not "cut out" of the "olive tree" in "unbelief," Rom 11.

We "grow in our walk", or become "perfected" the same way we were SAVED according to Paul. The idea that it is some separate process of rules or some separate decision one makes, is clearly condemned here.

Maybe your answering of my question above will illuminate this issue as well. To me, if you are going to say that salvation begins with our first "work of faith" and continues therein, then perhaps you are right about the discipleship aspect and only wrong about man being the judge of who does and who doesn't believe.

All of this to say: at the moment of Salvation, we become disciples.

I would agree with that. I do believe that at the moment of salvation we take Him as Lord of our lives either knowingly or unknowingly. I believe that receiving Christ changes our lives forever but I disagree that every believer will display that change so that we can prove LS as described my JM as a requirement of salvation.

skypair

 

[skypair]

If they profess Christ as Savior, and as their Lord, then it is incumbent upon them to repent, obey, and submit to Christ.

And if we impose this on them as Calvin did in Geneva or as JM is attempting to do now, we will have a whole passle of hypocrites!

What Calvin then and JM now are really attempting to do is stand in the place of the Holy Spirit much as the Pope is trying to stand in the place of Christ in this world. And why should they have to do so? Because they believe that the Spirit and Christ don't speak to their flock. So they tell them what they believe the Holy Spirit ought to tell them. However, often they themselves are misled -- "blind guides" in search of "disciples" (like those in 1Cor 1:12.).

Look, JM wants people to be saved. I know this. But siince he denies the first "work of faith" -- us choosing Christ through a "sinner's prayer" -- he must posit an almost "legalistic" system of salvation that looks fruitful. And it really borders on no one knowing till the "end of life" whether they are saved or not -- salvation by sanctification.

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Are you the pot or kettle, James?

In what context?

 

[skypair]

I think what we have here is ...

... a debate where each side is conceding an aspect of the other's case.

For LS, they are confessing some "work of faith" brings about salvation (which pure Calvinism would never admit).

For free willers, there appears to be an admission that Jesus must be Lord of salvation and life but it is indefinite as to how that is or should be manifested in the believer's life.

Perhaps we could all agree that we are called to salvation and discipleship at the same time through the same faith and are then, or later, "elect" to certain "offices," "gifts," etc. wherein/wherewith we serve as disciples. This, indeed, seems to be the "pattern" for 1) kids who come to salvation and 2) the OT saints who will be resurrected and minister to the world in the MK.

skypair

 

[Havensdad]

I think what we have here is ...

... a debate where each side is conceding an aspect of the other's case.

For LS, they are confessing some "work of faith" brings about salvation (which pure Calvinism would never admit).



skypair

No "work of faith" brings about salvation, at least in the way you are speaking of it.

Let me give you an example of what Paul is speaking of when He talks of "works" which were not "of Him", which showed His faith was not "in vain"....

I am walking down the street. I see a homeless man. He's hungry. He's hurt. Moved to compassion, by the Holy Spirit within me, I help Him up, take him to the Hospital, and get Him help. Then I take him to a cafe, feed him, and tell Him about Christ.

That is faith or "believing" that is not "in vain". God helped that man, NOT me. I can take no credit for it. These are the "works" Paul is talking of in Corinthians.


Another scenario. I am walking down the street. I see a homeless guy. He is hurt. "Stinking hobo! How disgusting!" I think to myself. Hurrying by, I continue on my way to church.

That is faith or "belief" that is in vain. This person demonstrates that the "love of Christ" is NOT in Him.

Faith without works is a dead faith. It CANNOT save, according to scripture. Every single person that is saved IS being sanctified, IS a new person, etc.

Or as James puts it:

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (This sentence construction has the implied answer>NO, it cannot)

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder! (simple belief is not enough! It is a submissive faith!)
Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? (Was he justified by works? Other verses say not. Rather He was justified by a works producing faith!)
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; (an incomplete "in vain" faith, does not save!)
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead (deceased, departed, SPIRITUALLY DEAD!).