Lordship necessary for salvation

[John of Japan]

Many attribute the rise of Lordship Salvation to the MVs, and Romans 10:9 in particular.

KJB

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

NIV

Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Just goes to show that the KJB and NIV do not convey the same understanding.

While I disagree with the NIV translation, of course, I don't think it can be blamed for the LS doctrine. I first heard it taught at BJU in 1971-1972 by Arend Ten Pas, years before the NIV came out.

Ten Pas was allegedly fired from BJU in '72, but I'm not sure of the reasons. His book The Lordship of Christ (1978) is in the bibliography of John MacArthur's The Gospel According to Jesus.

 

[Berean]

Lordship is a by product of Salvation by Gracerace

 

[John of Japan]

What book of the Bible specifically declares itself to be the book to teach how to believe, and in spite of that why does it never commands anyone to believe in the Lord or accept Christ as Lord or acknowledge Him as Lord or confess Him as Lord? (Hint: it's not Romans.)

Will no one take this challenge? :type:

 

[jrscott]

I would assume you are speaking of the Gospel of John. (Jn. 20.31)
And you are correct - John focuses on the importance of belief. However, reading the entire gospel in context will reveal the kind of belief he is speaking of. Never once does John give the idea that the belief he is speaking of is only mental acceptance or a faith that does not show itself in works. John's writing in 1 John makes this absolutely clear.

"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." (Jn. 3.20-21) Can someone who is saved truly hate the Light?

"He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven in above all." (Jn. 3.31 - By the way, this sounds like a Lord to me)

Again, noone has said that works are required for salvation. I appreciate and defend the non-LS's in their insistence that salvation is by faith alone. The mistake is that many of them (NOT all, but several) make belief into nothing more than a mental acceptance of gospel facts. James 2 condemns this very kind of belief ("...if someone SAYS he has faith... that THAT faith save him?"..Js. 2.14) Real faith will show itself in works.

By the way, lest you think that I believe non-LS guys are the only ones who get it wrong from time to time - I have been around many LS guys who take it way too far. One person in my last church did not believe a new convert was truly saved because he didn't want to attend his 6:30 in the morning Bible Study! Another guy accused me of sinning and questioning my salvation because I flew through Las Vegas (I didn't go to LV, I simply had a 3 hour layover - flying back from a Pastor's Conference of all things!) That is legalism and abuse. From the heart springs all the issues of life. When God gives us a new heart, new actions will come from it. When old actions come, there will be a godly sorrow leading to repentance.

Randy

 

[Winman]

Will no one take this challenge? :type:

I'll take a stab at this, the book of John?

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The book of John was written that we might believe Jesus is the Christ. It never says we must believe Jesus is the Lord.

 

[Winman]

Way to go Randy, you beat me to the punch! :tongue3:

I can't imagine anyone trusting Jesus and not believeing him to be Lord.

And I can't imagine anyone believeing that they can simply trust Jesus and then just sin freely afterward. Perhaps some do, but I have never met anyone like this, and this certainly wasn't my attitude when I came to Jesus.

But this is altogether different from believeing that you must make a commitment to stop sinning to be saved, that is a salvation dependent upon our own works.

To even be saved, a person must have a change of attitude about sin itself. The unsaved man sees sin as a good thing, something that makes life better or more pleasurable. Jesus said the reason people will not come to him is because they love darkness. They actually love sin and all the pleasure it brings them.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

So, the scriptures teach that whoever loves darkness, that is, evil and sin, will never come to the light, Jesus.

But the person who has been sincerely convicted by the word of God and the Holy Spirit sees sin for what it really is, evil that brings death and destruction to them and others. When a person truly sees this they will have a change of attitude toward sin and hate it.

When I realized I was a sinner and that the wages of sin was death I hated sin, I wanted to be rid of it, and still do.

 

[Luke2427]

Will no one take this challenge? :type:

Several things here.

First of all, I hope you and your wife are feeling better. I have been praying for you. I also hope you had a good weekend in the service of Christ there in Japan. God bless you for your dedication to our Savior's cause.

1. The declaration by John that his Gospel was written that we might believe and have eternal life does not in any way dilute the truth that plenty of other books of the Bible intend to fulfill that same purpose- books which clearly teach that Jesus Christ must be Lord.

2. The title "Lord" is used 45 times in the Gospel of John.

3. In fact the book opens, after a brief exposition on the origins of the Christ as being God robed in human flesh, which certainly includes his Lordship, the book opens with John the Baptist preaching, "Make straight the way of the LORD." (All four Gospels include this) This is how the book of John opens- that he is God and Lord.

4. The book closes with Thomas declaring, "My Lord and my God!" The book closes, then, the same way it opens- with a declaration that Jesus is God and Lord.

This same author tells us how time is going to begin to wrap up in Revelation 11:15 saying that the Kingdom of the world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ.

 

[Luke2427]

I was educated at Tennessee Temple and other schools and have preached the Gospel for 40 years and never preached the LS doctrine. My father was educated at Wheaton in the 1940s and preached the Gospel for 60 years, but never preached the LS doctrine. My grandfather (mother's side) was educated at SBC schools in the 1920's, preached the Gospel for 60 years and never preached the LS doctrine.

That brings me to say that the LS doctrine is a fairly recent one. You won't find it delineated in the old systematic theologies, sermon books, doctrine books, etc. The first I know who presented it as a doctrine that you must consciously accept Christ as Lord in order to be saved is Arend Ten Pas, my old prof in the early '70's. Then the one who popularized it was John MacArthur, of course. (Tozer and others preached it before then but never systematized it.)

.

It's actually a lot older than that. Not only do we know that Jonathan Edwards and Spurgeon and other greats demanded surrender but ...

* Matthew 7:19: "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
* Matthew 13:23: "As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."
* John 14:15: "If you love me [Jesus], you will obey what I command."
* Romans 6:1-2a: "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!"
* Romans 8:5-8: "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
* 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
* 2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
* Ephesians 5:5: "For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."
* Hebrews 6:7-8: "For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned."
* Hebrews 12:14b: "Without holiness no one will see the Lord."
* James 2:14,17: "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? ...faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
* 1 Peter 1:15-16: "But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy.'"
* 1 John 2:3-6: "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."
* 1 John 3:6-9: "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.... Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil.... No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

 

[Luke2427]

That brings me to say that the LS doctrine is a fairly recent one. You won't find it delineated in the old systematic theologies, sermon books, doctrine books, etc. The first I know who presented it as a doctrine that you must consciously accept Christ as Lord in order to be saved is Arend Ten Pas, my old prof in the early '70's. Then the one who popularized it was John MacArthur, of course. (Tozer and others preached it before then but never systematized it.)[/I].

Also, it ought to be noted that while the term "lordship" may be new, the concept is very old.

The Westminster Confession of Faith of 1644 sums it up pretty well speaking of the necessity of repentance:

I. Repentance unto life is an evangelical grace, the doctrine whereof is to be preached by every minister of the gospel, as well as that of faith in Christ.

II. By it a sinner, out of the sight and sense, not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature and righteous law of God, and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God, purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments.

 

[John of Japan]

I would assume you are speaking of the Gospel of John. (Jn. 20.31)
And you are correct - John focuses on the importance of belief. However, reading the entire gospel in context will reveal the kind of belief he is speaking of. Never once does John give the idea that the belief he is speaking of is only mental acceptance or a faith that does not show itself in works. John's writing in 1 John makes this absolutely clear.

How many times do I have to say that this does not describe what we, espeically I believe? It is entirely possible to hold a non-LS position without this. In fact, this is not the position of the vast majority of evangelicalism, only a small minority holding to what you described.

"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." (Jn. 3.20-21) Can someone who is saved truly hate the Light?

Of course they cannot. That's not the issue.

By the way, lest you think that I believe non-LS guys are the only ones who get it wrong from time to time - I have been around many LS guys who take it way too far. One person in my last church did not believe a new convert was truly saved because he didn't want to attend his 6:30 in the morning Bible Study! Another guy accused me of sinning and questioning my salvation because I flew through Las Vegas (I didn't go to LV, I simply had a 3 hour layover - flying back from a Pastor's Conference of all things!) That is legalism and abuse. From the heart springs all the issues of life. When God gives us a new heart, new actions will come from it. When old actions come, there will be a godly sorrow leading to repentance.

Randy

Thanks for the honesty!:thumbs:

 

[John of Japan]

I'll take a stab at this, the book of John?

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The book of John was written that we might believe Jesus is the Christ. It never says we must believe Jesus is the Lord.

Exactly! :thumbs: What I would like from the LS defenders on this thread is a single place in John where lost people (not saved people) are required to confess Christ as Lord. There are no such places.

 

[John of Japan]

Several things here.

First of all, I hope you and your wife are feeling better. I have been praying for you. I also hope you had a good weekend in the service of Christ there in Japan. God bless you for your dedication to our Savior's cause.

Thanks much for the prayers. Patty and I are still fighting the colds, ten days in. But they seem to be winding down. Sunday was poor. But that's why they call Japan "Gospel resistant."

1. The declaration by John that his Gospel was written that we might believe and have eternal life does not in any way dilute the truth that plenty of other books of the Bible intend to fulfill that same purpose- books which clearly teach that Jesus Christ must be Lord.

Well of course not! But do you deny any significance of John's statement? And if John was written so people can believe, why is there no commandment to confess Him as Lord in the book?

2. The title "Lord" is used 45 times in the Gospel of John.

Actually, the Greek kurios appears 51 times in the TR Greek NT:
7 times translated as "sir" in the KJV, not always towards Christ.
26 times used as a title talking to Christ.
5 times used by Jesus talking about Himself.
1 time by Thomas in his wonderful declaration.
3 times by John the author about Christ in his narration.
But not one single time commanding anyone to confess Christ as Lord or saying this must be done for salvation. Why is this not significant?

3. In fact the book opens, after a brief exposition on the origins of the Christ as being God robed in human flesh, which certainly includes his Lordship, the book opens with John the Baptist preaching, "Make straight the way of the LORD." (All four Gospels include this) This is how the book of John opens- that he is God and Lord.

Well of course! But why does this mean a person must confess Christ as Lord for salvation?

4. The book closes with Thomas declaring, "My Lord and my God!" The book closes, then, the same way it opens- with a declaration that Jesus is God and Lord.

A wonderful declaration by Thomas that should be made by all believers. But how do you know he wasn't saved already?

This same author tells us how time is going to begin to wrap up in Revelation 11:15 saying that the Kingdom of the world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ.

Well of course! But once again, how does this teach lordship salvation? It does not! The book of Revelation was not written to teach salvation. Simply declaring Christ as Lord does not teach a doctrine of salvation.

 

[John of Japan]

It's actually a lot older than that. Not only do we know that Jonathan Edwards and Spurgeon and other greats demanded surrender but ...

Well of course they did, though Spurgeon has been quoted on both sides of the issue. If you'll re-read my post, it was not that no one preached surrender for salvation, but that no one systemetized it into a doctrine. I even pointed out that Tozer taught it, but Arend Ten Pas systemetized it.

And all of your verses are wonderful, but to me they simply say that a believer will then obey. They don't teach what you are saying, that confessing Christ as Lord is necessary for salvation.

 

[John of Japan]

Also, it ought to be noted that while the term "lordship" may be new, the concept is very old.

The Westminster Confession of Faith of 1644 sums it up pretty well speaking of the necessity of repentance:

Once again, I don't deny this. But the old time theologians did not teach confessing lordship as a requirement for salvation. I quote Calvinist B. B. Warfield who echoes Strong (quoted previously): "In accordance with the nature of this faith the Protestant theologians have generally explained that faith includes in itself the three elements of notitia, assensus, fiducia" (Biblical and Theological Studies, p. 402). "In every movement of faith, therefore, from the lowest to the highest, there is an intellectual, an emotional, and a voluntary element, though naturally these elements vary in their relative prominence in the several movements of faith" (ibid, 403). But Warfield does not require confessing Lordship in this essay on faith, or in the book itself.

 

[Luke2427]

Thanks much for the prayers. Patty and I are still fighting the colds, ten days in. But they seem to be winding down. Sunday was poor. But that's why they call Japan "Gospel resistant."

Keep pressing on. I am two hours from where I was raised. So few of us are willing to move far from home to proclaim the Gospel of Christ. From one member of the Kingdom speaking for no doubt many members of the Kingdom- We are proud to have you there.

Well of course not! But do you deny any significance of John's statement? And if John was written so people can believe, why is there no commandment to confess Him as Lord in the book?

I deny that John taught that one could be oblivious to the Sovereignty of God and the deity of Christ (which is that which makes him LORD) and be saved.

Even the term "Christ" means anointed one. There are three primary offices for anointing: prophet priest and King. The premier office, being the only one he holds eternally, is King. So even when John says, "But these are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have eternal life through his name"- he was saying eternal life comes through an understanding that Jesus is the anointed promised KING.

Since the term "king" is essentially the same as "Lord" regardless of how some monarchs have watered it down the gospel of John actually promotes the idea of surrender necessary for eternal life.

Actually, the Greek kurios appears 51 times in the TR Greek NT:
7 times translated as "sir" in the KJV, not always towards Christ.
26 times used as a title talking to Christ.
5 times used by Jesus talking about Himself.
1 time by Thomas in his wonderful declaration.
3 times by John the author about Christ in his narration.
But not one single time commanding anyone to confess Christ as Lord or saying this must be done for salvation. Why is this not significant?
Well of course! But why does this mean a person must confess Christ as Lord for salvation?

I actually appreciate this good work here. It does not change the fact however that the term is on every page of John and that John opens and closes with the declaration that Jesus is God and Lord. This book that you recognize teaches what we must know to be saved opens and closes with the declaration that Jesus is Lord and God. Is that not significant to you?

A wonderful declaration by Thomas that should be made by all believers. But how do you know he wasn't saved already?

I think he was saved already. I don't think this is where he got saved. I just think that John was using Thomas' declaration to convince those he is trying to get to trust Christ that the Christ they need to trust for salvation is Lord and God.

But what you mustn't do is take one book of the Bible which you feel doesn't teach lordship and add to it one other passage in I Corinthians 15 and ignore the superabundance of Scriptural teaching on the matter.

I think it would be helpful to clarify my position on Lordship. I do not believe that one has to change his behavior in the least to be saved. I believe that he must simply know that Jesus Christ is Lord who proved it by his resurrection, and they must trust him alone for salvation. Trust is surrender. But don't get hung up on behavior.

It is like a man with tourettes being given a job to carry nitroglycerin to a certain place. He may say, "Look, I can;t help the fact that I jerk sometimes." The employer may say, "You don;t worry about that. You trust me. When you jerk I'll take care of it. You just trust me and put yourself under my care."

The tourettes is sin. We are going to sin. We might say to the Savior, "I know you are Lord. But I know I am going to sin." The Savior says, "He that comes to me I will in no wise cast out. If you will confess the Lord Jesus Christ... you will be saved. Do you believe this?" "Yes"- this person is saved.

He has surrendered his soul into the care of Christ. He has done so because he understands that Jesus is Lord and as such supremely worthy of his soul and fully able to save it all by himself. He is going to sin, but he knows that Jesus is able to keep the "nitro" from exploding and he yields himself to the Savior's Kingdom (employment).

 

[Luke2427]

Once again, I don't deny this. But the old time theologians did not teach confessing lordship as a requirement for salvation. I quote Calvinist B. B. Warfield who echoes Strong (quoted previously): "In accordance with the nature of this faith the Protestant theologians have generally explained that faith includes in itself the three elements of notitia, assensus, fiducia" (Biblical and Theological Studies, p. 402). "In every movement of faith, therefore, from the lowest to the highest, there is an intellectual, an emotional, and a voluntary element, though naturally these elements vary in their relative prominence in the several movements of faith" (ibid, 403). But Warfield does not require confessing Lordship in this essay on faith, or in the book itself.

I think you get hung up on the term "lordship" and you use the TERM'S relative newness to discount the ancient concept it communicates.

Surrender. This is not new. this is the idea of repentance according to the Westminster Confession.

Spurgeon preached this. Whitefield and Edwards preached it. Wesley preached it. And honestly, Jesus preached it. Did he not tell his congregants to first count the cost? Did he not tell them that he that loves father or mother more than him is not worthy of him? and that he that taketh not his cross and followeth after him is not worthy of him? Did he not say that he that finds his life shall lose it but he that loses his life for Jesus' sake shall find it?

And this does not even scratch the surface of what Jesus had to say about the demand to surrender all.

But once again, don't get hung up on behavior. I do think that surrender will affect the behavior, but I am not saying a change in behavior is necessary for salvation. Just an understanding of who Jesus really is, and that is LORD, and a heartfelt surrender to him (which is trust).

 

[John of Japan]

Keep pressing on. I am two hours from where I was raised. So few of us are willing to move far from home to proclaim the Gospel of Christ. From one member of the Kingdom speaking for no doubt many members of the Kingdom- We are proud to have you there.

Thanks for the encouragement. We are missionaries because we surrendered to the Lordship of Christ and obeyed His command. :saint:

I deny that John taught that one could be oblivious to the Sovereignty of God and the deity of Christ (which is that which makes him LORD) and be saved.

I really didn't say this and I don't believe it.

Even the term "Christ" means anointed one. There are three primary offices for anointing: prophet priest and King. The premier office, being the only one he holds eternally, is King. So even when John says, "But these are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have eternal life through his name"- he was saying eternal life comes through an understanding that Jesus is the anointed promised KING.

Maybe I'm confused, but I thought you believed that in order to be saved one must, at the time of believing, verbally confess Christ as Lord (from the heart of course). Is this wrong? If I have characterized you correctly, and this is your belief, then why does it not make sense that there would be commands to sinners in John (the book written to describe belief in Christ) to confess Christ in this way?

Since the term "king" is essentially the same as "Lord" regardless of how some monarchs have watered it down the gospel of John actually promotes the idea of surrender necessary for eternal life.

I believe I showed how kings in Bible times could be prisoners, having no sovereignty, and yet still be called kings. For just one example out of many see Judges 1:7.

I actually appreciate this good work here. It does not change the fact however that the term is on every page of John and that John opens and closes with the declaration that Jesus is God and Lord. This book that you recognize teaches what we must know to be saved opens and closes with the declaration that Jesus is Lord and God. Is that not significant to you?

I think he was saved already. I don't think this is where he got saved. I just think that John was using Thomas' declaration to convince those he is trying to get to trust Christ that the Christ they need to trust for salvation is Lord and God.

Of course it's significant. But it seems to me that LS advocates believe that the mere mention of the term Lord means it is part of salvation. That's what I'm having a problem with here. Simply stating that Jesus is Lord, like Thomas did for example, does not at all prove that confessing Christ as Lord must be part of salvation.

But what you mustn't do is take one book of the Bible which you feel doesn't teach lordship and add to it one other passage in I Corinthians 15 and ignore the superabundance of Scriptural teaching on the matter.

I don't do this at all. (Wait till I get to Acts. :smilewinkgrin I've studied the subject extensively in the whole NT, and read quite a few books and pamphlets on it: MacArthur, Hodges, Ryrie, Pickering, Cocoris, etc.

I think it would be helpful to clarify my position on Lordship. I do not believe that one has to change his behavior in the least to be saved. I believe that he must simply know that Jesus Christ is Lord who proved it by his resurrection, and they must trust him alone for salvation. Trust is surrender. But don't get hung up on behavior.

It is like a man with tourettes being given a job to carry nitroglycerin to a certain place. He may say, "Look, I can;t help the fact that I jerk sometimes." The employer may say, "You don;t worry about that. You trust me. When you jerk I'll take care of it. You just trust me and put yourself under my care."

The tourettes is sin. We are going to sin. We might say to the Savior, "I know you are Lord. But I know I am going to sin." The Savior says, "He that comes to me I will in no wise cast out. If you will confess the Lord Jesus Christ... you will be saved. Do you believe this?" "Yes"- this person is saved.

He has surrendered his soul into the care of Christ. He has done so because he understands that Jesus is Lord and as such supremely worthy of his soul and fully able to save it all by himself. He is going to sin, but he knows that Jesus is able to keep the "nitro" from exploding and he yields himself to the Savior's Kingdom (employment).

Thanks for the clarification, but see above. Why is it unreasonable to expect John to have a command to sinners to confess Christ as Lord? It's one of the four Gospels, after all, not the little books of Philemon, Jude or the like (precious as those are).

 

[John of Japan]

I think you get hung up on the term "lordship" and you use the TERM'S relative newness to discount the ancient concept it communicates.

Surrender. This is not new. this is the idea of repentance according to the Westminster Confession.

Spurgeon preached this. Whitefield and Edwards preached it. Wesley preached it. And honestly, Jesus preached it. Did he not tell his congregants to first count the cost? Did he not tell them that he that loves father or mother more than him is not worthy of him? and that he that taketh not his cross and followeth after him is not worthy of him? Did he not say that he that finds his life shall lose it but he that loses his life for Jesus' sake shall find it?

And this does not even scratch the surface of what Jesus had to say about the demand to surrender all.

But once again, don't get hung up on behavior. I do think that surrender will affect the behavior, but I am not saying a change in behavior is necessary for salvation. Just an understanding of who Jesus really is, and that is LORD, and a heartfelt surrender to him (which is trust).

The question at hand, as I understand it, is not surrender but when that surrender should take place: as part of salvation and a requirement for salvation, or as something all believers should do as part of sanctification. So, is surrender part of salvation, or part of sanctification--not, should there be surrender or not.

 

[Luke2427]

The question at hand, as I understand it, is not surrender but when that surrender should take place: as part of salvation and a requirement for salvation, or as something all believers should do as part of sanctification. So, is surrender part of salvation, or part of sanctification--not, should there be surrender or not.

Surrender is necessary for salvation. It is not possible without the process of regeneration. It is the essence of repentance. It is a confession that no one but Jesus is Lord. This is an inward resolve in the heart of the believer. Caesar is not Lord, I am not Lord- Jesus is Lord!

Trust is surrender. I must surrender something into the care and control of another if I am to trust them with it. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TRULY TRUST SOMEBODY WITH SOMETHING IF I DO NOT SURRENDER IT TO THEIR CONTROL- UTTERLY, ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVOCALLY, UNDENIABLY IMPOSSIBLE. IMPOSSIBLE.

Think about the Geico commercial with the CEO and the "trust game" with the Gecko. He said, "TRUST is key with Geico." then he fell backwards expecting the gecko to catch him. What was he illustrating? The fact that you KNOW and EVERYBODY knows- that trust is surrender. I trust you so I put my falling body completely under your control and care. I cease to be in control of my well being the moment I enact my trust by falling. You are now in control instead of me. That's the point of the TRUST game.

To be truly saved one must be fully persuaded that Jesus is fully able to save. The only way one can be convinced of that is if he understands the Sovereign Power of Jesus as Lord. Why is Jesus fully able to save? because he is LORD of all. He is Master of the grave, conqueror of Calvary, Creator and Sustainer of the whole universe- He who is Lord of all is more than able to save to the uttermost those that trust him!!! He will save me, thank God, if I will surrender my soul and being into his control and care!! but the only ones he ever saves are those who TRUST him- those who SURRENDER their being into his control and care.

That is all the Bible promises to the seeker. Jesus came to be the LORD of them that believe. This should not be rejected but rejoiced over. This should not be denied but embraced. This should not be balked at but proclaimed from the rooftop- UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, REJOICE!! JESUS IS LORD AND WILL SAVE ALL WHO TRUST HIM!! JAPAN, REJOICE, JESUS IS LORD AND WILL SAVE ALL WHO WILL TRUST HIM!! HALLELUJAH TO THE LORD OF GLORY! IF THOU SHALT CONFESS WITH THY MOUTH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST... THOU SHALT BE SAVED!!!

 

[Luke2427]

I believe I showed how kings in Bible times could be prisoners, having no sovereignty, and yet still be called kings. For just one example out of many see Judges 1:7..

No you didn't; and I hope that you don't believe that yourself. Please tell me that you do not think that when the Bible speaks of Jesus as King of Kings that it could mean anything similar to a king with no power- for goodness sake, not one powerlessly held in prison. Please tell me that you believe that even when Jesus was on the cross, his Sovereign power of the universe was still in tact. Please tell me that the Kingship of Jesus Christ means more to you than the debased position you seem to enunciate here- that you know it means he is SOVEREIGN above all. You do believe that is what Jesus being KING means in the Bible don't you??