Lordship Salvation? - Part Two

[Amy.G]

You know, you omitted a very important word in Romans 6:23: The wages of the sin is death.

It's wages. It's what you earn. For what? The sin. What is the sin?

Back it up with Scripture now! (Not that I expect it from you at this point.)

BTW, I like the verses you quote npetreley. It talks about grace. What is grace for?

Is so that we can serve [works] God acceptably. Heberws 12:28: "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:"

Works are works are works, and grace has to do with works.


But, back to the subject, what is the sin?

The wages of the sin is death? What translation are you getting this from? I was not able to find one that said "the".

And I have posted tons of scripture, but you always say my interpretation is wrong. I can't help that.

 

[J. Jump]

So where do works enter?

Great question. Works of any kind can only enter the picture after everlasting life is secured.

 

[npetreley]

BTW, I like the verses you quote npetreley. It talks about grace. What is grace for?

Is so that we can serve [works] God acceptably. Heberws 12:28: "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:"

Works are works are works, and grace has to do with works.

That's not what my Bible says.

5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Take your gospel elsewhere. It doesn't belong here.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[J. Jump]

First, that all believers ("the saved") appear before the "bema", as I believe this to be only the 'church' saints, and not the O.T. saints, as per my reply to Lou Martuneac, a couple of posts ago.

I don't see any other judgment seat where the OT saved are in a different spot than NT believers.

Second, where does it say that when we receive "the things done in the body" that is determining the "entrance into the kingdom or exclusion from the kingdom"?

Matthew 7 says Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

It was their works on trial so to speak so I am again unaware of any other judgment this would be other than the JSOC. The bema is to determine the overcomers and who were overcome. It is a separation of the wheat and tares.

 

[EdSutton]

JJ:

I trust we are drawing a distinction between the Judgment Seat of Christ (JSoC) and the Great White Throne Judgement (GWT). Do you draw that distinction in your position?


Judgement Seat of Christ
"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ," (Rom. 14:10)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad," (2 Corinthians 5:10).

The Bible teaches that ONLY the redeemed/saved will appear at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is not a place of punishment, the cross settled and appeased the wrath of God. The JSoC it a place of reward or loss of reward.


Great White Throne
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." (Rev. 20:11).

The unsaved dead are raised and appear at the GWT for final judgment. The saved will NOT stand before God in this judgment.

At my site In Defense of the Gospel is a link to Bob Shelton's Gospel Ministry. I am personally familiar with him. Shelton is arguably the most balanced and scholarly theologian on Eschatology.

I encourage everyone to buy and read his book, God’s Prophetic Blueprint. You may find Eschatology difficult and boring now, but not after you read Shelton’s book. He makes those difficult things understandable.

Kind regards,


LM

I'm not J Jump, but I did not see your post when I posted mine. FTR.

Ed

 

[mmetts]

Great question. Works of any kind can only enter the picture after everlasting life is secured.

But, works after everlasting life sounds like some kind of conundrum. We will be glorified at that point, and won't our works be as Christ's works himself? Of course, He is always the pre-eminent Son. My point is, our works won't be works in Heaven anymore, right? We'll be perfect beings. How could they?

 

[J. Jump]

But, works after everlasting life sounds like some kind of conundrum.

Works discussed in Scripture are for this lifetime, but they can only be accomplished after everlasting life has been secured, meaning I can not act in a pleasing manner to God until I have been made alive spiritually.

Scripture tells us that we will reap what we sow. If we sow to the flesh then we will reap corruption. But if we sow to the Spirit then we will receive eternal life.

This can not be speaking of everlasting life for two reasons contextually. One is that is something we already possess. And secondly it is received for sowing (working) to the Spirit.

Hope that clarifies a little more.

 

[EdSutton]

I don't see any other judgment seat where the OT saved are in a different spot than NT believers.


Matthew 7 says Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

It was their works on trial so to speak so I am again unaware of any other judgment this would be other than the JSOC. The bema is to determine the overcomers and who were overcome. It is a separation of the wheat and tares.

Nor can one show where the "OT saved" are ever part of the body of Christ, but I see that posted, here often, on the BB, albeit not by you, as well as I can remember.

Did you manage to miss the judgment of the nations (sheep and goats), which I believe to be at the start of the millenial reign? (Matt. 25: 31-ff) That is not what is in view, IMO, and that was not what I was referring to, either, but it is another Biblical judgment of when "works on trial" are in view, as is the "Great White Throne." (Rev. 20:11-15)[Also, the believer judging him or her self.(I Cor. 11:31)] Granted, only the "dead", i.e. the unsaved from all ages, appear at the Great White Throne, but their "works" (I repeat, it does not say "sins") are what they are judged "according to", and which I presume, are for 'degrees of punishment', if I may use that phrase.

BTW, I did not find either the word "overcome" or "overcomer" used anywhere in conjunction with "bema" when I read it. Nor the judgment of the "wheat and tares" in those passages, either. I see those to be a 'different' judgment (like different 'temperatures' in the Lake of Fire, perhaps??), as I read and understand (or misunderstand) it.

Ed

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Yes there is a difference between the JSOC and the GWT. The JSOC is for the saved only. And it is a determination of entrance into the kingdom or exclusion from the kingdom.

JJ:

I have to leave for the day, possibly weekend.

I have to leave with this thought: IMO there is something very odd with what you are saying here.


LM

 

[J. Jump]

Nor can one show where the OT believers are ever part of the body of Christ, but I see that posted, here often, on the BB, albeit not by you, as far as I can remember.

I have never said that and I don't recall OT believers being included in the "body" of Christ, but that's something that I have not studied out in any great depth.

Yes there is the sheep and goat judgment, but I believe that will be for those that last through the tribulation alive prior to the kingdom commencing.

I'm still not sure how you can separate works and sin.

 

[J. Jump]

IMO there is something very odd with what you are saying here.

That's not surprising LM . Most people find the teaching of the gospel of the kingdom odd at best these days as it is not taught in churches today, and if it is it is connected incorrectly with everlasting life.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

That's not surprising LM . Most people find the teaching of the gospel of the kingdom odd at best these days as it is not taught in churches today, and if it is it is connected incorrectly with everlasting life.

I don't know what churches you refer to with so many denominational/doctrinal differences.

If most/many Bible believing pastors/teachers have a problem/concern with this teaching then I would be concern that this is error. I try to stay pretty clued up on theological issues of the day and I must say I have never encountered this one.

I understand earthly kingdom, the 1,000 year reign. If you drift this teaching into eternity that it is VERY wrong!

In any event, you may mean well, but based on what I have perused I think you have checked out on Scripture with this teaching.


LM

 

[EdSutton]

It is the message that was offered by Christ to the nation of Israel. It is what they rejected and was to be given to a new nation one that would produce the fruits of the kingdom.

This "new" nation is the one new man in Christ. It is the "saved" folks of today which are no longer Greek or Jew.

If you would like more indepth study on the gospel of the kingdom send me a PM and I would be more than happy to direct you to some resource material.

But basically this is the offer of a position within Christ's coming kingdom.

While I completely agree with what you say here about the gospel of the kingdom, I completely disagree that "the "saved" folks of today which are no longer Greek or Jew" are any sort of any "new" nation. They are, instead, members (in particular) of a (the) body, the church, of which Christ is the head.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

The wages of the sin is death? What translation are you getting this from? I was not able to find one that said "the".

And I have posted tons of scripture, but you always say my interpretation is wrong. I can't help that.

The Greek language does have the definite article, here, according to the five Greek versions I have or can find, but I disagree with the rendering offered, as have apparently most, if not all, translators. The inclusion or exclusion of the article in the Greek language, does not necessarily demand the same insertion or exclusion into the English, if I remember correctly, for the accurate sense.

An example would be John 1:1. The intended sense is not that "the Word was 'a god'", as per the Jehovah Witnesses, but that "the Word was God", the absence of the article, notwithstanding. f For its inclusion into this construction, here, would make the sense something the writer (and the Holy Spirit) was not trying to convey, by limiting the meaning.

Here, the rendering into English of "the sin", would limit the "wages of sin" to Adam's sin only, theologically, and that is clearly not what Paul intends, IMO.

Ed

 

[J. Jump]

I understand earthly kingdom, the 1,000 year reign. If you drift this teaching into eternity that it is VERY wrong!

Exactly. That's my whole point. Most "Christian" churches today combine the message of the 1000-year kingdom with everlasting salvation and it is VERY wrong!

However you can just read through this and the last LS post and see that to be the case.

Pastors/teachers/theologians have been taking what is dealing with the gospel of the kingdom and have brought it over into the gospel of grace through faith apart from works and have all but destroyed both doctrines.

 

[npetreley]

I wonder why the gospel of the kingdom is so opposite the real gospel? "Spread the good news that if you don't work real hard, you'll spend 1,000 years in hell! How hard is real hard? We have no idea!"

 

[J. Jump]

I completely disagree that "the "saved" folks of today which are no longer Greek or Jew" are any sort of any "new" nation.

Then if we are not the nation that the gospel of the kingdom is given to then what nation is?

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Now some translations have the word "nation" rendered as people, but I don't think it matters which term is used I think it's pretty clear this is talking about the folks making up the one new man in Christ.

 

[EdSutton]

I'm still not sure how you can separate works and sin.

I'm not sure I ever have. Since I wasn't 'chosen' by the Holy Spirit to write it; I'se just-a repeatin' it as how He had it to be wrote!

Ed

 

[J. Jump]

I wonder why the gospel of the kingdom is so opposite the real gospel?

And I wonder why all you are left with is wise cracks that are merely statements of opinion?

 

[mmetts]

Does anybody mind if I just preach salvation? This other stuff is too complicated. :jesus: