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Lordship Salvation? - Part Two
- Thread starter DeafPosttrib
- Start date
It seems like a reasonable question when you have repeatedly said that most of Christendom has it wrong.J. Jump said:What does it matter what they think as long as that is what Scripture teaches? People put "way too much" emphasis on what other "people" think or what other mostly "dead" people have said.
I assume from your avoidance of the question that they probably disagree with you, otherwise you would have made sure we all knew that a lot of other people think like you do.
Are you saying the people in your church are mostly dead?
J. Jump said:
I agree with this much. But the problem you cite is that pastors are not teaching against licentiousness. You want to add to the scriptures to make yourself feel righteous, while throwing in some scare tactics to get others to behave. "If you DON'T behave, you'll spend 1,000 years in hell!! Oooh...skeery." You have no right to do that.
J. Jump said:
I argue that your whole doctrine is the result of you following in your own lusts. It's all about self-righteousness and pride. And I leave you to it. Enjoy it while you can.
I always love these types of posts as well. A person that has never met me believes they know more about me and what I believe and why I believe something. Please tell me how you are so intuned with me that not only do you know that I'm wrong, but you know the "reasoning" behind I believe what I believe.
Your statement is nothing but garbage. You don't know me. You certainly don't know why I believe what I do, so don't pretend like you do.
And you have not given a single shred of evidence to show where I have added anything to Scripture. That is a baseless accusation that you folks make because you can't prove we are wrong using Scripture and you refuse to show your own beliefs in light of Scripture, so you are left with baseless attacks and character assassination attempts.
Well you are entitled to your opinions, but that's all they are. You have no basis for your statements and you certainly don't have any Scriptural backing for them.
More baseless and false accusations. Hmmmm . . . what a surpise. Please show me one time where I have said that I am better than somebody or have even insinuated that.
Hope of Glory
New Member
I have pastor friends who preach the gospel of the Kingdom, and I have friends who teach that the Kingdom isn't really real, that it's just something that is mystical and gives you warm fuzzy feelings. It matters not what either extreme thinks; what matters is what the Bible teaches.
I've seen churches torn apart when a pastor realizes that the junk he's been spouting off for years is a bunch of feel-good nothingness and he starts preaching the Kingdom. By the same token, I've seen churches that bond very closely because they teach lawlessness and embrace homosexuality, and say, "Can't we all just get along?"
Feelings have nothing to do in the matter.
If in one place you are taught that your salvation is secure and in another one that it's not secure, then it's either talking about two salvations, or it's a contradiction. If it's a contradiction, then the entire Bible is useless. But, the Bible spells it out that the one that can be forfeited is the salvation of the soul. But, natural evolution and Secular Humanism has taught us for so long that the spirit and the soul are the same that the Bible just can't mean it when it says that we are a body, soul, and spirit, so we just pick the part we don't like and ignore it.
Our feelings tell us that when the Bible talks about justification in one place being permanent, but in other places telling us that we have to do stuff to be justified and that that justification can stop, then we have to accept a contradiction, or look and see if there really is a contradiction, or simply pick the one we don't like and discard it.
Over the last 35 years, I've seen the Baptist Church go from being strong in the Kingdom teachings to Kingdom teachings being almost non-existant. I've seen Baptist churches by and large abandon historical Baptist teachings, and pick the parts they don't like and discard them. I've seen Baptist churches become megachurches by watering down the teachings, and teach feel-good junk that tickles the ears.
Well, it doesn't mean that traditional Baptist teachings are wrong, and it doesn't mean that the Bible is wrong.
If more preachers would preach and teach from the original languages, most confusion would go away. Not all of it, as there are some difficult passages. But, when no one, not even the preachers look at what it says, you end up with things such as entire Baptist sects being formed on the distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost.
Over my years, I've had to learn to discard some things that I've been taught. I grew up being taught that all saved people are saints. That's downright wrong according to Scriptures; all saints are saved, but not all saved people are saints.
I've known my entire life that "lost" doesn't always refer to an unsaved person, but in later years, I had to discard that idea, because upon reading what the words say, "lost" never refers to an unsaved person.
A brother is a saved person who is being obedient. Not all saved people are obedient.
Lawlessness is quite common among saved people, yet many people reject the warnings against lawlessness and apply them only to unsaved people.
I have had people actually say to me, "I don't care what the Bible actually says. I care what the Holy Spirit tells me it says." Well, if there's a spirit telling you that it means something that is contrary to what is written, I'd question whether it's a holy spirit, much less the Holy Spirit of God.
I had someone last week tell me, "I know that's what the Bible says, but it can't really mean that."
I also have a friend who was a Greek teacher who lost his job because he actually taught what the Greek says, but it contradicted preconceived beliefs.
It matters not what people think.
We should simply look at what it says.
I've seen churches torn apart when a pastor realizes that the junk he's been spouting off for years is a bunch of feel-good nothingness and he starts preaching the Kingdom. By the same token, I've seen churches that bond very closely because they teach lawlessness and embrace homosexuality, and say, "Can't we all just get along?"
Feelings have nothing to do in the matter.
If in one place you are taught that your salvation is secure and in another one that it's not secure, then it's either talking about two salvations, or it's a contradiction. If it's a contradiction, then the entire Bible is useless. But, the Bible spells it out that the one that can be forfeited is the salvation of the soul. But, natural evolution and Secular Humanism has taught us for so long that the spirit and the soul are the same that the Bible just can't mean it when it says that we are a body, soul, and spirit, so we just pick the part we don't like and ignore it.
Our feelings tell us that when the Bible talks about justification in one place being permanent, but in other places telling us that we have to do stuff to be justified and that that justification can stop, then we have to accept a contradiction, or look and see if there really is a contradiction, or simply pick the one we don't like and discard it.
Over the last 35 years, I've seen the Baptist Church go from being strong in the Kingdom teachings to Kingdom teachings being almost non-existant. I've seen Baptist churches by and large abandon historical Baptist teachings, and pick the parts they don't like and discard them. I've seen Baptist churches become megachurches by watering down the teachings, and teach feel-good junk that tickles the ears.
Well, it doesn't mean that traditional Baptist teachings are wrong, and it doesn't mean that the Bible is wrong.
If more preachers would preach and teach from the original languages, most confusion would go away. Not all of it, as there are some difficult passages. But, when no one, not even the preachers look at what it says, you end up with things such as entire Baptist sects being formed on the distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost.
Over my years, I've had to learn to discard some things that I've been taught. I grew up being taught that all saved people are saints. That's downright wrong according to Scriptures; all saints are saved, but not all saved people are saints.
I've known my entire life that "lost" doesn't always refer to an unsaved person, but in later years, I had to discard that idea, because upon reading what the words say, "lost" never refers to an unsaved person.
A brother is a saved person who is being obedient. Not all saved people are obedient.
Lawlessness is quite common among saved people, yet many people reject the warnings against lawlessness and apply them only to unsaved people.
I have had people actually say to me, "I don't care what the Bible actually says. I care what the Holy Spirit tells me it says." Well, if there's a spirit telling you that it means something that is contrary to what is written, I'd question whether it's a holy spirit, much less the Holy Spirit of God.
I had someone last week tell me, "I know that's what the Bible says, but it can't really mean that."
I also have a friend who was a Greek teacher who lost his job because he actually taught what the Greek says, but it contradicted preconceived beliefs.
It matters not what people think.
We should simply look at what it says.
***MODERATOR'S NOTE***
This is a debate forum and this thread has been somewhat "hotly contested"----nothing wrong with that
BUT
BOTH SIDES OF THE DEBATE
Please conduct yourself in a manor worthy of the Lord Jesus Christ "who did no wrong neither was guile found in His mouth"
Thanks!
Bro. David
This is a debate forum and this thread has been somewhat "hotly contested"----nothing wrong with that
BUT
BOTH SIDES OF THE DEBATE
Please conduct yourself in a manor worthy of the Lord Jesus Christ "who did no wrong neither was guile found in His mouth"
Thanks!
Bro. David
Lou Martuneac
New Member
Lordship Advocates Please...
To Lordship Salvation Advocates:
You may be aware I am speaking at the Grace Conference on Thursday & Friday of this week. I will be teaching two workshops on Lordship Salvation. I will define and discuss some of the chief components of the Lordship interpretation of the Gospel.
However, I was thinking this evening that it might be helpful to let you, the Lordship advocate, define Lordship Salvation in a way you believe is fair and accurate. I have numerous citations from the well-known advocates of Lordship Salvation. You, however, may have a preferred way of expressing your position, and this is your opportunity.
You are invited to visit my site and post a brief definition of Lordship Salvation. One or two brief sentences are sufficient.
I would like to take your definitions, put them on a transparency and show them in my opening workshop. I will not release your name should you choose to use it here. (You can post anonymously) I will not use your definition as a target to mock or ridicule in the workshop. I will simply show the attendees how you, the Lordship advocate, defines his position.
Sorry to rush you on this, but I just got the idea to ask for your input. This is not meant to be a minefield or a chance to play gotcha with anyone.
Please go to In Defense of the Gospel, and define Lordship Salvation in your own words. The article and comment thread is the lead piece at my site.
Thanks,
Lou Martuneac
To Lordship Salvation Advocates:
You may be aware I am speaking at the Grace Conference on Thursday & Friday of this week. I will be teaching two workshops on Lordship Salvation. I will define and discuss some of the chief components of the Lordship interpretation of the Gospel.
However, I was thinking this evening that it might be helpful to let you, the Lordship advocate, define Lordship Salvation in a way you believe is fair and accurate. I have numerous citations from the well-known advocates of Lordship Salvation. You, however, may have a preferred way of expressing your position, and this is your opportunity.
You are invited to visit my site and post a brief definition of Lordship Salvation. One or two brief sentences are sufficient.
I would like to take your definitions, put them on a transparency and show them in my opening workshop. I will not release your name should you choose to use it here. (You can post anonymously) I will not use your definition as a target to mock or ridicule in the workshop. I will simply show the attendees how you, the Lordship advocate, defines his position.
Sorry to rush you on this, but I just got the idea to ask for your input. This is not meant to be a minefield or a chance to play gotcha with anyone.
Please go to In Defense of the Gospel, and define Lordship Salvation in your own words. The article and comment thread is the lead piece at my site.
Thanks,
Lou Martuneac