Lordship salvation volume 3

[Alive in Christ]

Winman...

Nice "trusting Christ" analogy with the fireman. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

It depends on what you mean by believing on Jesus. The devils believe and tremble.

The devils have knowledge about God.
When we talk about belief we talk about faith. Faith is a more accurate word since we are saved by faith and not of works.
Do the devils have faith? Perhaps. But what is the object of their faith? If your remember one third of the angels followed Lucifer in a rebellion against God. The object of their faith was Lucifer. The object of the faith of the demons is still Lucifer or Satan. They follow him; they obey his commands. Satan is still deceived that he someday can overthrow God. The devils believe. Yes, but in what do they believe? The object of their faith is not in the risen Christ but in Lucifer or in Satan.

The object of my faith is in the risen Christ who has paid the penalty for my sin by his death on the cross. What is the object of your faith. Everyone has faith. From the smallest to the greatest we all have faith. What is important is the object of that faith.

From the beginning to the end Christ is the object of my faith. That is, from the day I trusted him onward He is the author and finisher of my faith. He is the object of my faith.

...for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. (2 Timothy 1:12)

 

[Iconoclast]

dhk

If repentance is sorrowing for sin then Judas Iscariot would be a saved man, for that is what he did. He threw the money back into the temple. He repented and went and hung himself. His repentance was that he felt sorry for what he had done. But that is not Biblical repentance; it is Pink's version of repentance though.

10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death...

Repentance to salvation....DHK...you do not understand Pink at all....you could learn much from him as he gives the correct answers to those areas that you miss.:type:

 

[Iconoclast]

You read into these verses what they do not say. These verses do not say these believers were unsaved, that would contradict dozens of scriptures. It only says Jesus did not commit himself or trust himself to them.

Was Peter a believer? YES. Did Jesus say the apostles were clean (except Judas) at the last supper? YES. They were true believers, their sins were forgiven, yet a few hours later Peter denied Jesus. True believers fail, they cannot always be trusted.

This does not argue for you, but against you. No one is saved because we are always faithful to Jesus, we are saved because Jesus is always faithful to us. If a man believes on Jesus he is saved, Jesus cannot break his promise.

Maybe you forgot about this one....

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

or this;

13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

24Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

 

[Iconoclast]

You read into these verses what they do not say. These verses do not say these believers were unsaved, that would contradict dozens of scriptures. It only says Jesus did not commit himself or trust himself to them.

Was Peter a believer? YES. Did Jesus say the apostles were clean (except Judas) at the last supper? YES. They were true believers, their sins were forgiven, yet a few hours later Peter denied Jesus. True believers fail, they cannot always be trusted.

This does not argue for you, but against you. No one is saved because we are always faithful to Jesus, we are saved because Jesus is always faithful to us. If a man believes on Jesus he is saved, Jesus cannot break his promise.

It is your position that is on the wrong side of the issue;
look here;

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

There are many warnings of having a false belief......no fruit ...many in the professing churches today say they believe ...but do not MT7:21-24

 

[Iconoclast]

And if the Holy Spirit does not so work in us, what then? What conclusion should one draw?

I wonder if anyone has read A. W. Pink's Studies in saving Faith, written in the 1920s. It can be found here:-
http://www.godrules.net/library/pink/247pink1.htm

Here is an extract. Warning: Pink does not mince words:-

Most excellant post...MM.....Pink is masterful on most areas of the christians life and experience.:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[freeatlast]

The devils believe Jesus is the Son of God, but they cannot believe Jesus died for their sins. Jesus did not die for the angel's sins, and there is no promise to angels that they will be saved if they believe on Jesus.

But man is different. Jesus did die for our sins, and has promised to save any man who believes on him for salvation.

We cannot add to what Jesus has done. He does not need our help to save us. All we need do is completely trust him alone for salvation.

Lordship Salvation is works salvation. As some have said here, they do not believe trusting Jesus is enough. They believe we have to be obedient to be saved. Good luck with that, it only takes one sin to come short of the glory of God, just as Adam only had to sin once to die.

I compare it to being in a fire in a tall building. Firemen below call for you to jump and promise to catch you with a net. You have to let go and jump. Likewise, we need to simply cast ourselves on Jesus, we need to let go and jump, and depend on Jesus ONLY to catch us, to save us.

The devils cannot have saving faith, there is no promise to save them, there is no promise given them to depend or believe upon.

We can only have saving faith because we have a promise to save us to depend upon.

Do you understand that?

Believing those facts do not save. One has to come to repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Most excellant post...MM.....Pink is masterful on most areas of the christians life and experience.:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Iconoclast....

I have read a couple of Pinks books.

Pink is not only a calvinist, but also a legalist.

Not good. Not good at all.

 

[Winman]

Believing those facts do not save. One has to come to repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Let's say you had a drinking problem. I approach you and say if you will repent of drinking for one year I will buy you a new car. You do repent, you stop drinking, and after one year I buy you a new car.

Was this new car a free gift? I think you know better. You earned it by stopping drinking for one year.

Your idea of salvation is no different, you believe if we stop sinning Jesus will save us, if we do not stop sinning he won't. That is works salvation, it is earning your salvation.

Also, what if you had one little drink at nine months? Did you stop drinking for one year? No.

It would be the same in your system. Unless you remain sinless until you die, you cannot truly say you have stopped sinning, can you?

Oh, but you will say you never said a person must remain perfectly sinless, because you admit you sin on occasion.

So, how are you different from the rest of us? You sin just like the rest of us, although perhaps less frequent, but that is debatable also. If others were to scrutinize you as you do others, you may be found wanting.

You seem to assume that most of us here are not true believers and continue in sin. I can't speak for others, but I hate my sin. I want to obey Jesus just like you, though I often fail.

One thing I have learned is not to judge others. Jesus said to judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged.

So, just remember, God is going to hold you accountable to the same standard you judge others. That alone should get your attention. Perhaps you should be careful how you judge other's faithfulness to God.

 

[freeatlast]

Let's say you had a drinking problem. I approach you and say if you will repent of drinking for one year I will buy you a new car. You do repent, you stop drinking, and after one year I buy you a new car.

Was this new car a free gift? I think you know better. You earned it by stopping drinking for one year.

Your idea of salvation is no different, you believe if we stop sinning Jesus will save us, if we do not stop sinning he won't. That is works salvation, it is earning your salvation.

Also, what if you had one little drink at nine months? Did you stop drinking for one year? No.

It would be the same in your system. Unless you remain sinless until you die, you cannot truly say you have stopped sinning, can you?

Oh, but you will say you never said a person must remain perfectly sinless, because you admit you sin on occasion.

So, how are you different from the rest of us? You sin just like the rest of us, although perhaps less frequent, but that is debatable also. If others were to scrutinize you as you do others, you may be found wanting.

You seem to assume that most of us here are not true believers and continue in sin. I can't speak for others, but I hate my sin. I want to obey Jesus just like you, though I often fail.

One thing I have learned is not to judge others. Jesus said to judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged.

So, just remember, God is going to hold you accountable to the same standard you judge others. That alone should get your attention. Perhaps you should be careful how you judge other's faithfulness to God.

You clearly show you do not have a clue as to what repentance is. I never said a person has to stop sinning to repent and the NT never says repent of your sin. Yet a person does have to repent to be saved. I strongly suggest that you find out what it means. Pointing out what the bible says is not judging. You say you hate your sin. Then stop doing it!

 

[Winman]

Iconoclast, you pull 1 Cor 15:2 out of context. What is the topic of 1 Cor 15? It is the resurrection of our physical bodies. Paul is not implying his hearers might be false believers, he is saying that if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then our faith is vain.

1 Cor 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Why would our faith be vain if Jesus did not rise from the dead, and why would we remain in our sins? Because Jesus had to ascend and offer his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. Without blood there is no remission of sins.

So, Paul is not implying these persons are false believers at all, he is showing that if Jesus did not rise again, then our faith (real, true faith) in him is in vain.

And notice when Paul gives the gospel in 1 Cor 15:1-4 that he does not say we must turn from sinning. But he does mention faith in verse 2.

 

[Winman]

You clearly show you do not have a clue as to what repentance is. I never said a person has to stop sinning to repent and the NT never says repent of your sin. Yet a person does have to repent to be saved. I strongly suggest that you find out what it means. Pointing out what the bible says is not judging. You say you hate your sin. Then stop doing it!

I do know what to repent means. It means to turn from the false belief we are righteous and can earn salvation, realizing and confessing we are sinners, and turning to Jesus only and depending on him only to save us.

I do try to stop sinning every day. But I am honest with myself and see I do not. Do you tell every single person you meet the gospel? To my shame I don't. I walk by people every day and do not share the gospel with them. Jesus commanded us to preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15).

Do you do this?