Lordship Salvation vs Free Grace

[webdog]

I disagree completely. Faith and works are synonomous and thus, inextricablly linked.

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, `Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, `You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (Jas. 2:14-24).

We will be judged upon our deeds - things that we do, think, or say (or things that we fail to do, think, or say) - all of these are works according to scripture. Is not the thought of lust considered the sin of adultry? The answer must be a resounding YES! Unless of course, one believes that one has no control over one's mental processes and cannot assent to sin, which is patently rediculous. We are responsible for our actions [works/deeds/thoughts] in the sight of God.

Peace!
WM

I think we are talking past each other. There are works that result FROM salvation which include repentance of sins. Repentance leading TO salvation is never a work else you believe in a works based salvation ala the Roman Catholics.

The above in the red states faith was evident ALONG WITH works...not that it was part of this group.

 

[webdog]

I disagree. Repentance and faith are both works, but they just so not save.They open the door for salvation. By works I mean they are literal states of mind/heart that must precede salvation.

I believe Scripture doesn't teach that. If there is any work committed pre salvation that results in salvation, grace is frustrated. That is why Lordship Salvation is false.

 

[freeatlast]

I believe Scripture doesn't teach that. If there is any work committed pre salvation that results in salvation, grace is frustrated. That is why Lordship Salvation is false.

Then everyone is saved just because we do not have to do anything.

 

[webdog]

Then everyone is saved just because we do not have to do anything.

Grace is not opposed to effort, grace is opposed to earning. We never work to receive a gift.

 

[freeatlast]

Grace is not opposed to effort, grace is opposed to earning. We never work to receive a gift.

agreed and faith and repentance are still works we must do, but works do not save.

 

[WestminsterMan]

I think we are talking past each other. There are works that result FROM salvation which include repentance of sins. Repentance leading TO salvation is never a work else you believe in a works based salvation ala the Roman Catholics.

Well, I concur in that we must be called by God before our initial repentance can occur. However, we have the freedom to accept that calling or to reject it; either choice is a work - one good and one evil. Remember the thought of lust – it is a sin upon which we will be judged and as such, it is a work according to Romans 2:5-11.

I would argue that this position is not one of a works based salvation at all because it is only by the atoning sacrifice of Christ that salvation is even possible in the first place. Yet, we are judged to heaven or to hell based upon our deeds/thoughts/actions (or the lack thereof).

Peace!
WM

 

[nodak]

I've honestly never met a person with the attitude "I want Jesus as Savior but not as my Lord." Never.

Now, I have met a lot of folks in a Romans 7 position: they want to obey Jesus, but have not matured/been sanctified enough to be there yet.

And honestly, never met a perfect person, so I guess the LS position means none holding to it are saved?

Rather than either or, I have come to a both/and position.

Free grace brings a sinner into justification, and there is no justification without regeneration. With regeneration will come increasing ability to obey.

Of course, we prefer to judge whether a person has matured ENOUGH yet.

And in so doing, prove we have not.

 

[webdog]

I've honestly never met a person with the attitude "I want Jesus as Savior but not as my Lord." Never.

Now, I have met a lot of folks in a Romans 7 position: they want to obey Jesus, but have not matured/been sanctified enough to be there yet.

And honestly, never met a perfect person, so I guess the LS position means none holding to it are saved?

Rather than either or, I have come to a both/and position.

Free grace brings a sinner into justification, and there is no justification without regeneration. With regeneration will come increasing ability to obey.

Of course, we prefer to judge whether a person has matured ENOUGH yet.

And in so doing, prove we have not.

:thumbs: Nice post.

 

[Luke2427]

I've honestly never met a person with the attitude "I want Jesus as Savior but not as my Lord." Never.

Now, I have met a lot of folks in a Romans 7 position: they want to obey Jesus, but have not matured/been sanctified enough to be there yet.

And honestly, never met a perfect person, so I guess the LS position means none holding to it are saved?

Rather than either or, I have come to a both/and position.

Free grace brings a sinner into justification, and there is no justification without regeneration. With regeneration will come increasing ability to obey.

Of course, we prefer to judge whether a person has matured ENOUGH yet.

And in so doing, prove we have not.

Lordship has never meant that one must obey perfectly even that which he knows.

It simply means that one must confess having been fully convinced of the fact that Jesus Christ is Lord.

The Bible is clear on this.

There is no salvation for one who "accepts" Christ. That concept is new (within the past 100 years or so) and is utterly foreign to the Scriptures.

Salvation comes by believing that Jesus Christ is LORD.

 

[Greektim]

I've honestly never met a person with the attitude "I want Jesus as Savior but not as my Lord." Never.

Now, I have met a lot of folks in a Romans 7 position: they want to obey Jesus, but have not matured/been sanctified enough to be there yet.

And honestly, never met a perfect person, so I guess the LS position means none holding to it are saved?

Rather than either or, I have come to a both/and position.

Free grace brings a sinner into justification, and there is no justification without regeneration. With regeneration will come increasing ability to obey.

Of course, we prefer to judge whether a person has matured ENOUGH yet.

And in so doing, prove we have not.

That is unless Paul was referring to his past unconverted state in Romans 7.

 

[quantumfaith]

Lordship has never meant that one must obey perfectly even that which he knows.

It simply means that one must confess having been fully convinced of the fact that Jesus Christ is Lord.

The Bible is clear on this.

There is no salvation for one who "accepts" Christ. That concept is new (within the past 100 years or so) and is utterly foreign to the Scriptures.

Salvation comes by believing that Jesus Christ is LORD.

Accepting Christ and renouncing sin

Conversion is expected to be more than a simple change in religious identity, but a change in nature (regeneration), evidenced by a change in values. The Latin word conversio, translating the Greek metanoia, literally means "going the other way" or "changing one's mind". According to Christianity a convert is one who renounces sin as worthless and treasures instead the supreme worth of Jesus Christ; the convert sees the worth of Christ in Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection and renounces sin.[8]

The Christian convert is expected to believe that his separation from God cannot be overcome by good deeds done out of a desire to achieve individual moral self-satisfaction; rather, he seeks the forgiveness of his sins in the blood of Christ and wishes to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ. Because conversion is a change in values that embraces God and rejects sin, it includes a personal commitment to a life of holiness as described by Paul of Tarsus and exemplified by Jesus. In some Protestant traditions, this is called "accepting Christ as one's Savior and following him as Lord."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_conversion

 

[Tom Butler]

I've honestly never met a person with the attitude "I want Jesus as Savior but not as my Lord." Never.

I haven't heard that either. But I have, in several instances, heard one give a testimony as "I accepted Jesus as Savior back then, but it was much later that I accepted him as Lord."

Rightly or wrongly, in their own minds they separated the two events. Maybe they had a mistaken understanding about it, but they seemed to know their own hearts.

Or maybe whoever shared the gospel with them emphasized the trusting Christ as Savior, and de-emphasized (or never mentioned) confessing him as Lord.

I've heard a lot of invitations in my life, and most of them hit hard on the trusting, but barely mention the confessing.

 

[webdog]

I haven't heard that either. But I have, in several instances, heard one give a testimony as "I accepted Jesus as Savior back then, but it was much later that I accepted him as Lord."

Rightly or wrongly, in their own minds they separated the two events. Maybe they had a mistaken understanding about it, but they seemed to know their own hearts.

Or maybe whoever shared the gospel with them emphasized the trusting Christ as Savior, and de-emphasized (or never mentioned) confessing him as Lord.

I've heard a lot of invitations in my life, and most of them hit hard on the trusting, but barely mention the confessing.

It could also be how he perceived his growth from a spiritual babe to a mature christian. Babies don't know much about the cost of discipleship, this is learned behavior from being in a Bible based church, prayer and spending time in the Word.

 

[Tom Butler]

It could also be how he perceived his growth from a spiritual babe to a mature christian. Babies don't know much about the cost of discipleship, this is learned behavior from being in a Bible based church, prayer and spending time in the Word.

Yes, I agree. Good point. If that is the case, it says something about our need to be clearer at the outset that conversion involves confessing Christ as both Savior and Lord.