Lordship Salvation?

[Lacy Evans]

She begins . . .

He. But whatever.

 

[Lacy Evans]

No mam. neither the word age nor lasting are involved in the definition of aionios.

That's really funny. It's the root of the word! The root of the word has "Nothing" to do with its definition?

Then she [SIC] uses human reason to say that the translators used the english dictionary to translate with so it leaves her (or rather craig) the option of looking to a dictionary that phrases the word

I was being sarcastic. That wasn't my "reason". My reason is that that is what the word means.

Your "Strongs-concordance-textual-criticism-101- exegesis", notwithstanding.

 

[Lacy Evans]

From Ancient Greek translations of the OT.

Gen. vi:4, "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, (aiónos), men of renown." Gen. ix:12; God's covenant with Noah was "for perpetual (aiónious) generations." Gen. ix:16; The rainbow is the token of "the everlasting (aiónion) covenant" between God and "all flesh that is upon the earth." Gen. xiii:15; God gave the land to Abram and his seed "forever," (aiónos). Dr. T. Clowes says of this passage that it signifies the duration of human life, and he adds, "Let no one be surprised that we use the word Olam (Aión) in this limited sense. This is one of the most usual significations of the Hebrew Olam and the Greek Aión." In Isa. lviii:12; it is rendered "old" and "foundations," (aiónioi and aiónia). "And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places; thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach." In Jer. xviii:15, 16, ancient and perpetual, (aiónious and aiónion). "Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; to make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head." Such instances may be cited to an indefinite extent. Ex. xv:18, "forever and ever and further," (ton aióna, kai ep aióna, kai eti.) Ex. xii:17, "And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt, therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance forever," (aiónion). Numb. x:8, "And the sons of Aaron the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance forever (aiónion) [SIZE=-1]THROUGHOUT YOUR GENERATIONS[/SIZE]." "Your generations," is here idiomatically given as the precise equivalent of "forever." Canaan was given as an "everlasting (aiónion) possession;" (Gen. xvii:8, xlviii:4; Lev. xxiv:8,9) the hills are everlasting (aiónioi) (Hab. iii:6) the priesthood of Aaron (Ex. xl:15; Numb. xxv:13; Lev. xvi:34) was to exist forever, and continue through everlasting duration; Solomon's temple was to last forever, (1 Chron. xvii:12) though it was long since ceased to be; slaves were to remain in bondage forever, (Lev. xxv:46) though every fiftieth year all Hebrew servants were to be set at liberty, (Lev. xxv:10) Jonah suffered an imprisonment behind the everlasting bars of earth, (Jon. ii:6) the smoke of Idumea was to ascend forever, (Isa. xxxiv:10) though it no longer rises, to the Jews God says (Jer. xxxii:40) "and I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten," and yet, after the fullness of the Gentiles shall come in, Israel will be restored. Rom. xi:25-6.

Not only in all these and multitudes of other cases does the word mean limited duration, but it is also used in the plural, thus debarring it from the sense of endless, as there can be but one eternity. In Dan. xii:3; the literal reading, if we allow the word to mean eternity, is "to eternities and farther," (eis tous aiónas kai eti.) Micah iv:5, "We will walk in the name of the Lord our God to eternity, and beyond," eis ton aióna kai epekeina. Ps. cxix:43-4, "And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments. So shall I keep thy law continually forever and ever." This is the strongest combination of the aionian phraseology: eis ton aióna kai eis ton aióna tou aiónos, and yet it is David's promise of fidelity as long as he lives among them that "reproach" him, in "the house of his pilgrimage." Ps. cxlviii:4-6, "Praise him, ye heaven of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. Let them praise the name of the L[SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE]: for he commanded and they were created. He hath also established them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass. The sun and moon, the stars of light, and even the waters above the heavens are established forever,"eis ton aióna tou aiónos, and yet the firmament is one day to become as a folded garment, and the orbs of heaven are to be no more. Endless duration is out of the question in these and many similar instances. In Lam. v:19, "forever and ever" is used as the equivalent of "from generation to generation." Joel ii:26-27, "And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the L[SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE] your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed." This is spoken of the Jewish nation. Isa. lx:15, "Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal (aiónion) excellency, a joy of many generations." Here many generations and eternal are exact equivalents. 1 Sam. i:22, "But Hannah went not up: for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the L[SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE], and there abide forever." The remaining of Samuel in the temple was to be "forever" (aiónos) 2 Kings, v:27, "The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed forever." (ton aióna). Undoubtedly the seed of Gehazi is still on earth: but whether so or not the leprosy has departed. Daniel ii:4, "Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriac, O king, live forever: eis tous aióna." The Chaldean's live forever meant precisely what the French Vive, and the English "Long live the King" mean. Eternal duration never entered the thought. Jerem. xvii:25, "Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their city shall remain forever," eis ton aióna. Eternity was not promised here. Long duration is the extent of the promise. Josh. iv:7, "Then ye shall answer them, That the waters of Jordan were cut off before the ark of the covenant of the L[SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE]: when it passed over Jordan, the waters of Jordan were cut off; and these stones shall be for a memorial unto the children of Israel forever," tou aiónos. These stones are no longer a memorial. This forever has ended.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

That's really funny. It's the root of the word! The root of the word has "Nothing" to do with its definition?

bypassing the definition and skipping to the root ignoring the intent of the word works for guys like chitwood and craig and ...I cant think of that other nut who espouses this heresy. The word used was not the root word and it changes the context. Clearly this is common sense. and your OT references have no bearing onthis discussion.

 

[Amy.G]

Let's look at another verse.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

This is the same word. Same greek, Aionios, meaning forever, without end.

Does eternal life that Christ offers last forever, without end or does it last 1000 years (age lasting)?

 

[Lacy Evans]

bypassing the definition and skipping to the root ignoring the intent of the word works for guys like chitwood and craig and ...I cant think of that other nut who espouses this heresy. The word used was not the root word and it changes the context. Clearly this is common sense. and your OT references have no bearing onthis discussion.

In other words, the way that actual Greek speak speaking people used the Greek word, aionios, in Biblical times means nothing. You say a suffix completely changes the meaning of the word so it is so.

Chitwood, Craig, (Your nut, probably my dear friend, Joey Faust) are just the tip of the iceburg.

And none of them had a time machine nor could they go back and teach the Greeks what they thought the word should really mean. so I doubt if they had much influence on Justyn Martyr, Josephus and those other "nuts".

 

[Lacy Evans]

Let's look at another verse.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

This is the same word. Same greek, Aionios, meaning forever, without end.

Does eternal life that Christ offers last forever, without end or does it last 1000 years (age lasting)?

It depends on the context. How long is the age? That's how long "age-lasting" lasts! :BangHead:

lacy

 

[Amy.G]

It depends on the context. How long is the age? That's how long "age-lasting" lasts! :BangHead:

lacy

Are you saying you don't know how long "eternity" is when Christ said "should not perish but have eternal life"?

 

[npetreley]

Are you saying you don't know how long "eternity" is when Christ said "should not perish but have eternal life"?

My humble advice, Amy: Give it up. They connections they're making in order to interpret "eternal life" as meaning "life for 1000 years" is so ridiculous it doesn't deserve attention. I put it on par with Ruckman's alien fetish.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

In other words, the way that actual Greek speak speaking people used the Greek word, aionios, in Biblical times means nothing. You say a suffix completely changes the meaning of the word so it is so.

Chitwood, Craig, (Your nut, probably my dear friend, Joey Faust) are just the tip of the iceburg.

And none of them had a time machine nor could they go back and teach the Greeks what they thought the word should really mean. so I doubt if they had much influence on Justyn Martyr, Josephus and those other "nuts".

Yea none of them believed that heresy either.

 

[Amy.G]

My humble advice, Amy: Give it up. They connections they're making in order to interpret "eternal life" as meaning "life for 1000 years" is so ridiculous it doesn't deserve attention. I put it on par with Ruckman's alien fetish.

You are probably right.

What am I doing up this late??

I'm going to catch some :sleeping_2:

Good night guys!

 

[npetreley]

Let's look at another verse.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

This is the same word. Same greek, Aionios, meaning forever, without end.

Does eternal life that Christ offers last forever, without end or does it last 1000 years (age lasting)?

One last word of support...

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Greek words are "thousand" and "years", not "eon". Isn't it amazing that these people actually knew how to say 1,000 years when they meant 1,000 years? They weren't so dumb, after all, I guess.

 

[Amy.G]

One last word of support...



The Greek words are "thousand" and "years", not "eon". Isn't it amazing that these people actually knew how to say 1,000 years when they meant 1,000 years? They weren't so dumb, after all, I guess.

I never thought of looking at it from that angle. Must be because I'm delirious from lack of sleep. :laugh: Good night again.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Chitwood faust and craig may all agree on this junk but having Baptist on thier church name (like chitwood) doesnt make them baptist. this is not baptist doctrine.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The Bible says, quoting Jesus, "He that believes in Me has everlasting life." (Did you note there is no other caveat, here, in Jo. 6:47?)

I know that you and I agree in this area about Lordship Salvation, but I have a question for you: What happens if a person quits believing? Now, I'm talking about a person who really does believe on the Lord Jesus for his salvation, but something happens in life that makes him stop believing. What happens?

 

[Hope of Glory]

It doesn't matter which language you choose, in either the word (eternal, aion) must be defined by context because,in either, it is never absolute.

And, as most Greek textbooks will point out, properly, an adjective's semantic domain cannot exceed the semantic domain of the noun from which it is formed. "Oh! Except in this one instance," people say. Show me another instance.

Lacy, I like the way the KJV translates the word "aenaon" (yet a different word) as "everlasting" in Genesis 49:26, but as "lasting" in Deuteronomy 33:15. Do you suppose the KJV translators might just have been aware that "aionion" doesn't mean "forever and ever without end"?

"Aion" is "age". It's a limited period of time, without any reference to the length of that time inherent in the word. It could be the age of a particular reign, and it could be a few years, or it could be many years. We are given 7 ages of this Earth, and we are in the 6th one now. (There was one society that in later years defined an age as 107 years, but that was unique to that society.)

But, we are told in no uncertain terms that the age to come is 1000 years. It's a millennium.

The Greek also has a word that matches up to our modern use of "eternal", and that's "aidios". It's only used twice in the Bible. It means "without beginning or ending" or "existing outside of time".

The Greek also has an expression that means "forever". It's "[FONT=&quot]εις τοὺς αιωνας των αιώνων" or literally “from the ages unto the ages”.

But, I guess God was too inarticulate to actually say what he meant, so he had to say something completely different and then those of us who were smart enough in the 20th and 21st centuries could finally understand what he was too inarticulate to say way back then.

Show me an example of ancient writings in which "aionios" meant "forever". Show me an example of an adjective that properly exceeds the bounds of the semantic domain of the noun from which it is formed.
[/FONT]

 

[Hope of Glory]

Only if you redefine the word to suit your theology. Nowhere does Strongs refer to eternal as 1000 years.

Well, Strong's is very weak, and is mostly only a concordance and not a lexicon. However, let's take a look at the English etymology of the word "eternal":

c.1366 (in variant form eterne), from O.Fr. eternal, from L.L. æternalis, from L. æternus contraction of æviternus "of great age," from ævum "age." Eternity first attested c.1374. In the Mercian hymns, L. æternum is glossed by O.E. ecnisse.

See anything in there about "forever"?

 

[Hope of Glory]

bypassing the definition and skipping to the root ignoring the intent of the word works for guys like chitwood and craig and ...I cant think of that other nut who espouses this heresy. The word used was not the root word and it changes the context. Clearly this is common sense. and your OT references have no bearing onthis discussion.

Most Greek textbooks explain that the semantic domain of the adjective cannot exceed the semantic domain of the noun from which it is formed.

Then, goes on to "explain", "well, except for this one".

Well, show me another one, and show me a single example of ancient Greek writings in which "aionios" is used to mean "forever". BTW, if it means "without beginning or ending", then how do we inherit it, since we all have a beginning?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Let's look at another verse.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

This is the same word. Same greek, Aionios, meaning forever, without end.

Does eternal life that Christ offers last forever, without end or does it last 1000 years (age lasting)?

Let me ask you a question, Amy: What happens if a person really, really, really, TRULY believes on the Lord Jesus, then at some point, something happens and he stops believing?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

npetreley,

My humble advice, Amy: Give it up. They connections they're making in order to intepret "eternal life" as meaning "life for 1000 years" is so ridiculous it doesn't deserve attention. I put it on par with Ruckman's alien fetish

:laugh: you make me laugh, you're funny.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!