Lordship Salvation?

[npetreley]

Where did she say God had to offer it to everyone? I agree if He had to offer it, it is not grace. She plainly stated what Scripture does...He has chosen to.

I know what she said. What did she mean, though? That God would be unjust if He didn't offer it to all? If so, then that's still obligation. If not, then we have to go down yet another line of reasoning on which we will not agree...

Apparently, you don't need faith then, either.

As a wise forum participant pointed out with respect to "HAVING to offer it", where did I say you don't need faith?

 

[webdog]

Faith is the substance, evidence of what's hoped for and not seen. Sounds like free will faith to me, and not this "gift" of faith given to the elect to give back that calvinism needs.

 

[npetreley]

Faith is the substance, evidence of what's hoped for and not seen. Sounds like free will faith to me, and not this "gift" of faith given to the elect to give back that calvinism needs.

Be blessed webdog. I'm not going to argue with you.

 

[Rippon]

WB : I know for a fact that many here on the BB think God has been under obligation to "offer salvation [grace] to all." They do think it is a matter of justice . If the message of the Gospel doesn't sound forth to everyone -- then He is an unjust God . Justice is fairness . But God's mercy is under no obligation . Folks here confuse these things often . Mercy and justice are two distinct categories .

 

[webdog]

WB : I know for a fact that many here on the BB think God has been under obligation to "offer salvation [grace] to all . They do think it is a matter of justice . If the message of the Gospel doesn't sound forth to everyone -- then He is an unjust God . Justice is fairness . But God's mercy is under no obligation . Folks here confuse these things often . Mercy and justice are two distinct categories .

I think what they are referring to is the punishment associated without offering grace, not offering grace in itself.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

More to Read

Hi JRG:

Here are two more articles you can read on the Lordship interpretation of the Gospel.

A Question Left Unanswered

Lordship Salvation's "Barter" System

Feel free to reply with any questions/commmets at my site or here.


Lou

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Calvinism's Irresistible Grace

What is common grace?

Calvinism teaches that the Holy Spirit extends a special inward calling, but only to those elected to salvation. Through this calling the sinner is irresistibly drawn to Christ and the Spirit causes the sinner to cooperate. The lost man may have no desire for Christ, no interest in the claims of the gospel, but he has no choice in the matter. Because he has been unconditionally elected for salvation the Spirit puts the choice in his mind, and compels him to respond to the gospel invitation. This irresistible grace cannot be rejected and does not depend on man’s cooperation.


LM

 

[Lou Martuneac]

False Dilemma

Lordship Salvation really came from the opponents of "easy believism". You have one side quoting many verses that all you have to do is believe to be saved, so just get people to say a prayer and believe and they will go to heaven - with no real change (repentance) in their life.

The Lordship proponents basically preach that if you are truly saved Jesus will be LORD of your life - there WILL be evidence of salvation that permeates your entire life, A change of heart, a change of mind and and a change of action. You will not be an instantly mature Christian but there will be a desire to make Jesus Lord of your life and not just say a prayer, get dunked and no change in your life.

Both EXTREME sides make compelling and biblical supported arguments for sure. The truth of the Bible is beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and of course a saved person will experience that ALL things have passed away (old nature) and ALL things have become new (born again) A saved person will exhibit a changed life.

Easy Believism vs. Lordhsip Salvation can be as heated as the Free Will of God and the Sovereignty of Man debate.

IFB:

Well said. And both sides use the "false dilemma" argumentation to bolster their case. This is in my book:

The student of logic will spend some time studying fallacies. One of the logical fallacies people use in an attempt to prove their point is sometimes called the “false dilemma.” This fallacy occurs “when the two alternatives are presented, not all the possibilities have been explored.” This fallacy presents itself in the current debate. Those who advocate the lordship salvation position see only the mental assent or “easy believism” position as an alternative. Likewise those who hold to Hodges’ mental assent position decry all others as advocates of lordship salvation… There is a balanced, biblical position on the issue of salvation. (In Defense of the Gospel, p. 127.)

LM

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Apparently, you don't need faith then, either.

The Calvinist belierves man can't express repentance or faith, can't particpate in his own salvation in any way, shape or form. Can't respond to the Gospel at all.

The Calvinist believes lost man must first be regenerated, i.e. born again by the Spirit of God first, and only after that has taken place can he express repentance and faith in Christ.

This flows from the 'T' in their T-U-L-I-P "Total Inability."

For more read


LM

 

[christianyouth]

Easy Believism vs. Lordhsip Salvation can be as heated as the Free Will of God and the Sovereignty of Man debate.

believe it or not, this debate is closely tied with the Free will debates. If you hold to free will theology, Lordship salvation will be equated with works salvation. If you hold to Calvinistic theology, Lordship salvation will be the natural outworking of God's grace on a persons life.

 

[npetreley]

believe it or not, this debate is closely tied with the Free will debates. If you hold to free will theology, Lordship salvation will be equated with works salvation. If you hold to Calvinistic theology, Lordship salvation will be the natural outworking of God's grace on a persons life.

I agree. But that's why I believe it is tied more closely with free-willism. Assuming it is true (I am not arguing for or against), then with Calvinism the natural outworking of God's grace is only a concern AFTER you are already saved. You aren't saved by Lordship, so it would be a misnomer to call it Lordship Salvation.

With free-willism, it becomes part of the magical sinner's prayer and a requirement for being saved. In this case, it is properly called Lordship Salvation.

 

[webdog]

With free-willism, it becomes part of the magical sinner's prayer and a requirement for being saved.

Strawman. I believe in free will, and I don't believe in a "magical sinners prayer". The thief on the cross said no "magical sinners prayer" and was saved. It's the heart, not the words that matter.

 

[JustChristian]

This is a good summary of so-called Lordship Salvation.

Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.

Christ didn't ask anyone to believe that he existed. Even the demons do that. He asked them to "Come and follow Me." If you think that's works based salvation so be it.

 

[webdog]

This is a good summary of so-called Lordship Salvation.

Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.

Christ didn't ask anyone to believe that he existed. Even the demons do that. He asked them to "Come and follow Me." If you think that's works based salvation so be it.

One doesn't follow Christ unless one has faith first. LS teaches the following of Christ and faith happen BEFORE one is saved. Faith is justification. Following Christ is sanctification, not justification.

 

[JustChristian]

One doesn't follow Christ unless one has faith first. LS teaches the following of Christ and faith happen BEFORE one is saved. Faith is justification. Following Christ is sanctification, not justification.

How does that view relate to the story of the rich young ruler who had faith but wasn't willing to make Christ Lord of his life?

 

[J. Jump]

How does that view relate to the story of the rich young ruler who had faith but wasn't willing to make Christ Lord of his life?

The context of the rich young ruler is not one of eternal salvation. The context in view is inheritance. He asks about inheriting the kingdom. That is only available to members of the family. He was eternally saved and was curious about his inheritance.

 

[webdog]

How does that view relate to the story of the rich young ruler who had faith but wasn't willing to make Christ Lord of his life?

He obviously didn't have faith in Christ...or he would have followed.

 

[Amy.G]

The context of the rich young ruler is not one of eternal salvation. The context in view is inheritance. He asks about inheriting the kingdom. That is only available to members of the family. He was eternally saved and was curious about his inheritance.

Really? Then why did he ask Jesus "what must I do to inherit eternal life?

Luke 18:18
18And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luke 18
23And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Eternal life=kingdom of God

They are one and the same.

 

[npetreley]

Really? Then why did he ask Jesus "what must I do to inherit eternal life?

Luke 18:18
18And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luke 18
23And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Eternal life=kingdom of God

They are one and the same.

Owned.

.....

 

[J. Jump]

Really?

Yes.

Then why did he ask Jesus "what must I do to inherit eternal life?

You answered your own question.

Eternal life=kingdom of God

They are one and the same.

And here's your answer. The whole context is the kingdom. The kingdom of God is equated to the kingdom of the heavens in Matthew. Both of these are speaking of the coming 1,000-year earthly kingdom of The Christ.

Again eternal salvation is not a matter of inheritance.

Once again this just proves that Christendom has equated everything in Scripture that speaks of faith, salvation, eternal life, believe, etc. to eternal salvation. And that is simply not the case.

Another way that we see this is not a context of everlasting life is because he wasn't told to believe he was told to "do" something. This is a works context. Everlasting life is not received by what we do, but by what we believe.

He had faith enough to go and inquire of the person that had the answers. He just didn't want to do what he was told to do. He had faith, because he said he had been following the commandments since he was a child.

The issue is he wanted to live "his" life not live the life the Master had for him.

That's not everlasting life that is discipleship. Discipleship is only for the eternally saved.