Love requires choice?

[DHK]

Well, I actually believe man is capable of not sinning, but I do not believe any man except Jesus has chosen to live a sinless life, and I do not believe any other man other than Jesus Christ ever will.

But that doesn't mean we have to sin. When do we have to sin? Name even one occasion where you HAD to sin.

Seriously, name even one occasion in your life where you HAD to sin because of your nature.

Now, don't give me some example where someone held a gun to your head and forced you to sin. I am talking about being forced to sin by your human nature.

Be honest.

Leviticus 4:2-3 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying, 'If anyone sins unintentionally, in any of the things which Yahweh has commanded not to be done, and does any one of them: if the anointed priest sins so as to bring guilt on the people, then let him offer for his sin, which he has sinned, a young bull without blemish to Yahweh for a sin offering.(WEB)
Obviously.

 

[Winman]

Leviticus 4:2-3 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying, 'If anyone sins unintentionally, in any of the things which Yahweh has commanded not to be done, and does any one of them: if the anointed priest sins so as to bring guilt on the people, then let him offer for his sin, which he has sinned, a young bull without blemish to Yahweh for a sin offering.(WEB)
Obviously.

You love this unintentional sin stuff don't you? :laugh:

It is just a little unfair to compare us to the Jews who had what? 613 commands from God? That's a lot to remember, and even more to do.

I am sure everyone forgets something once in awhile and commits some sort of unintentional sin. But that is not quite the same as intentional sin.

Nobody is FORCED or COMPELLED to sin intentionally by their nature except maybe those "savant" folks who shout out curse words uncontrollably. But if that is a real medical condition, that is not really their fault.

Now, if you stub your toe you might curse unintentionally, but that is force of habit which was learned intentionally to begin with. Little children do not curse when they stub their toe, they cry out for "Mommy!".

You sure like to make a lot of excuses for sin. :laugh:

 

[kyredneck]

Winman, you believe that man is capable of not sinning, yet all men that reach the age of accountability will indeed eventually sin.

Correct?

 

[Winman]

Winman, you believe that man is capable of not sinning, yet all men that reach the age of accountability will indeed eventually sin.

Correct?

Yes, but don't get me wrong, I am not saying it's easy. Adam and Eve were created into a perfect world, yet they sinned the very first time they were tempted. And what was the temptation? A piece of fruit!

We are all born into an utterly sinful world FULL of temptations. Our family is all sinners who show us a bad example. We hear the radio, the TV, we see people sinning everywhere. We think it is normal, and indeed, it is normal!

We have a body of flesh that wants to please itself at all times. By the time we can reason, we have many habits about pleasing our flesh. When the world presents evil temptations, it is EASY to make the wrong choice.

All that said, when we are really old enough to understand right and wrong before God, we do not HAVE to sin. We CHOOSE to sin.

Now, you did not answer my question, please name even one occasion in your life where you HAD to sin because of your sin nature.

 

[DHK]

You love this unintentional sin stuff don't you? :laugh:

It is just a little unfair to compare us to the Jews who had what? 613 commands from God? That's a lot to remember, and even more to do.

I am sure everyone forgets something once in awhile and commits some sort of unintentional sin. But that is not quite the same as intentional sin.

Nobody is FORCED or COMPELLED to sin intentionally by their nature except maybe those "savant" folks who shout out curse words uncontrollably. But if that is a real medical condition, that is not really their fault.

Now, if you stub your toe you might curse unintentionally, but that is force of habit which was learned intentionally to begin with. Little children do not curse when they stub their toe, they cry out for "Mommy!".

You sure like to make a lot of excuses for sin. :laugh:

No, I don't make excuses for sin. If you want to compare "number of commands" the number of commands under grace far exceeds those under law. But because we are under grace the punishment is not as great. We don't have to bring a blood offering to a priest and make an animal sacrifice.
We, ourselves, are priests and can freely come before our Great High Priest at any time, at any place, and there coming right before the throne of God ask forgiveness in our time of need.
"If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Often our sins are sins of omission which are just as great as commission.
Did I witness to that person that I should have?
Did I spend the time in prayer that I should have?
Have I spent the time in the study of God's Word that is pleasing to God?
Before purposefully evangelizing do I spend time in prayer; am I full of the Holy Spirit?
Do I know for absolutely sure that right now I am in the center of God's will doing what God wants me to do? If not why not?

Sin is not limited to the Ten Commandments. Neither is it encompassed by Jewish Law. Our sin is when we displease Christ in any way.

You seem to think that it would be possible for man to go through life without sin.
John says differently:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Winman]

And you misinterpret what John says. That verse is saying that if a person denies they are a sinner then the truth is not in him. It is not saying you HAVE to sin.

But I think you prefer to believe it says we MUST sin.

 

[DHK]

And you misinterpret what John says. That verse is saying that if a person denies they are a sinner then the truth is not in him. It is not saying you HAVE to sin.

But I think you prefer to believe it says we MUST sin.

John did not write Scripture in vain (for the good of his own health).

The verse juxtaposed in the middle of those two is this one:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John knew that we would sin; it is in our nature to sin whether we want to or not, we will sin.
A denial of that will lead us to false doctrine. It will lead us to:
--deceiving ourselves; the truth is not in us.
--making Christ a liar; His Word is not in us.

But confession of sin (repentance) is still possible.

Right after that John continues to write:
1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

It is his will that we don't sin. But we will. And when we do, we have an advocate--Jesus Christ. He is the propitiation for our sins. He has provided a way to the Father.

If it were possible for man to live a perfect life Christ would not have had to die. But it is not possible.
Gal.3:10 teaches that.

 

[Winman]

John did not write Scripture in vain (for the good of his own health).

The verse juxtaposed in the middle of those two is this one:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John knew that we would sin; it is in our nature to sin whether we want to or not, we will sin.
A denial of that will lead us to false doctrine. It will lead us to:
--deceiving ourselves; the truth is not in us.
--making Christ a liar; His Word is not in us.

But confession of sin (repentance) is still possible.

Right after that John continues to write:
1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

It is his will that we don't sin. But we will. And when we do, we have an advocate--Jesus Christ. He is the propitiation for our sins. He has provided a way to the Father.

If it were possible for man to live a perfect life Christ would not have had to die. But it is not possible.
Gal.3:10 teaches that.

John also said, My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. So nobody HAS to sin.

There is a big difference between saying everybody WILL sin and everyone MUST sin. I agree that everyone WILL sin, but nobody HAS to sin.

You do not seem to understand this distinction.

I asked several times for folks to give me examples of when they HAD to sin because of their sin natures, not one person answered. Nuff said.

 

[DHK]

John also said, My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. So nobody HAS to sin.

There is a big difference between saying everybody WILL sin and everyone MUST sin. I agree that everyone WILL sin, but nobody HAS to sin.

You do not seem to understand this distinction.

I asked several times for folks to give me examples of when they HAD to sin because of their sin natures, not one person answered. Nuff said.

My examples were given here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2108603&postcount=145
But you ignored them.

 

[Winman]

My examples were given here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2108603&postcount=145
But you ignored them.

Those are not sins you HAD to commit. You could have witnessed to the person you didn't witness to, you could have spent more time in prayer, you could have spent more time studying God's word.

No, I am talking about being forced or compelled to sin because of your sin nature. Name me even one occasion in your life where you were forced or compelled to sin and could not have done the right thing if you had chosen to do so.

Be honest. I cannot think of any sin I have ever committed that I HAD to commit. Oh, I can come up with some great excuses, and even some powerful temptations, but I was not forced to sin and could have done the right thing.

So tell me of sins you HAD to commit. I bet you cannot come up with a single one.

 

[DHK]

Those are not sins you HAD to commit. You could have witnessed to the person you didn't witness to, you could have spent more time in prayer, you could have spent more time studying God's word.

No, I am talking about being forced or compelled to sin because of your sin nature. Name me even one occasion in your life where you were forced or compelled to sin and could not have done the right thing if you had chosen to do so.

Be honest. I cannot think of any sin I have ever committed that I HAD to commit. Oh, I can come up with some great excuses, and even some powerful temptations, but I was not forced to sin and could have done the right thing.

So tell me of sins you HAD to commit. I bet you cannot come up with a single one.

I just did. They were all hypothetical scenarios that you were to answer personally for yourself. The "I" or "me" does not necessarily mean DHK, but you can read it and think of "Winman" instead. And then answer it for yourself.
Are you always in the center of the will of God every day every minute of the day.
Is it the will of God to express frustration and occasional anger on the board?
Is it the will of God to sometimes misrepresent what others say, or even worse, deliberately take Scripture out of context and make it mean something that it doesn't which is dishonesty.

There are many other such questions I could ask. I tried at first to make them fairly simple and innocuous. But you wouldn't bite.

 

[webdog]

I just did. They were all hypothetical scenarios that you were to answer personally for yourself. The "I" or "me" does not necessarily mean DHK, but you can read it and think of "Winman" instead. And then answer it for yourself.
Are you always in the center of the will of God every day every minute of the day.
Is it the will of God to express frustration and occasional anger on the board?
Is it the will of God to sometimes misrepresent what others say, or even worse, deliberately take Scripture out of context and make it mean something that it doesn't which is dishonesty.

There are many other such questions I could ask. I tried at first to make them fairly simple and innocuous. But you wouldn't bite.

This entire post is nothing but a question begging fallacy.

If your argument is we have to sin, you are removing accountability from the equation.

 

[DHK]

This entire post is nothing but a question begging fallacy.

If your argument is we have to sin, you are removing accountability from the equation.

My point was that there are sins of omission just as there are of commission.
They are just as serious.
Then I gave some examples, as you have seen.

The Bible commands us: "Be ye holy as I am holy."
It is a command we cannot keep. It is only a goal we can work toward. Sin, as described in Romans 3:23, is "missing the mark." We fall short of the holiness of God every day without even trying. We, in this lifetime, will never attain to the holiness of God. Since we have a sinful nature we live sinful lives, and unless we are "praying always," as commanded, and "rejoicing 'in the Lord' always" as commanded, we are no doubt giving into our fleshly desires. We are falling short of God's holiness. IOW, we are sinning even if it isn't by commission, it probably is by omission. We aren't doing the things we ought to be doing.
We are not attaining the level of holiness that God wants us to attain. We are missing the mark. If we can't see our own sinfulness as God sees it, then that also is sin, for it in and of itself is a form of pride.

 

[convicted1]

Completely backwards. Our choice resulted in spiritual birth (salvation). Of course salvation / born again is of God, but it makes absolutely no sense for someone who has passed from death to life to need to seek Him at that point since He IS the life.

We can quicken ourselves?????? Wowzers!!

 

[convicted1]

Much "Christ-less salvation" being propagated on here....

 

[convicted1]

Much "Christ-less salvation" being propagated on here....

Ushering in Deut. 1:39, Ezek. 18:4, 18:20, and Romans 7:9 in 3, 2, 1......

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by webdog
Completely backwards. Our choice resulted in spiritual birth (salvation)…..

We can quicken ourselves?????? Wowzers!!

Webdog believes that one wills to be born not of their own will [Jn 1:13], and that dead men can obey and become live men.

Much "Christ-less salvation" being propagated on here....

Really. Check out post #144:

Originally Posted by kyredneck
Winman, you believe that man is capable of not sinning,….

Yes, but don't get me wrong, I am not saying it's easy......

This is very basic Christianity 101 that these two (Winman & webdog) have made shipwreck of:

….if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought. Gal 2:21

….if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law. Gal 3:21

 

[Winman]

We can quicken ourselves?????? Wowzers!!

He said no such thing and you know it.

You quote John 1:13, but you omit Jhn 1:11-12;

Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jesus came unto his own, the Jews, but they rejected him. That is a choice. But to those persons who chose to receive him, and believe on him, to these persons God gave the power to be born again, which were born again, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of men, but of God.

We must choose Jesus. We can reject him (receive him not), or we can receive him (believe on his name). This is the choice we are given. To those who receive Jesus, to these persons God gives the power to be born again.

You understand this very well, or at least you used to.

 

[Winman]

Webdog believes that one wills to be born not of their own will [Jn 1:13], and that dead men can obey and become live men.

Webdog believes what the Bible says.

Really. Check out post #144:

Yeah, check it out.

This is very basic Christianity 101 that these two (Winman & webdog) have made shipwreck of:

….if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought. Gal 2:21

….if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law. Gal 3:21

Why must you be dishonest here? No one said or even hinted that any man can justify himself by keeping the law.

And you and others still have not given an example of when you HAD to sin. If we are compelled to sin because of our sin nature, you should easily be able to give examples of many times when your sin nature forced and compelled you to sin where you had no choice, and could not have done the right thing.

So please, tell us of some of these many times you were forced by your nature to sin.

I'll be waiting...

 

[Winman]

Ushering in Deut. 1:39, Ezek. 18:4, 18:20, and Romans 7:9 in 3, 2, 1......

This just shows that you yourself know what I have been saying is true. You know the very scriptures that refute Original Sin.

Why did you used to believe these scriptures, but now you don't? Do you have something greater than God's word now?

Your own conscience is testifying against you Willis, and you don't even see it.