Luke 22:19-23 before John 13:2

[37818]

Judas is at Jesus' institution of the remembrance.

Luke 22:19-21, And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.

Verses 20, "for you" included Judas.

And John 13:2 being after the institution of the remembrance is the reason it properly should read ". . . And supper being ended, . . .

 

[Silverhair]

Judas is at Jesus' institution of the remembrance.

Luke 22:19-21, And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.

Verses 20, "for you" included Judas.

And John 13:2 being after the institution of the remembrance is the reason it properly should read ". . . And supper being ended, . . .

@37818 I know this is hard for you to accept but are you going to say that Matthew who was at the meal got it wrong and Luke who was relating what he had been told got it right?

Mat 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." NASB

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." NKJV

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. KJV

You said that Judas was at Jesus' institution of the remembrance. Matthew said when that happened and we see in John 13:2 it was during supper so he is in agreement with Matthew. So why do you continue to insist that it was after the meal?

A copiest made an error that has been carried forward in some texts but not all. You have chosen to align yourself with the error but Matthew shows your view is wrong.

 

[37818]

. . . are you going to say that Matthew who was at the meal got it wrong . . .

You have a poor memory.
Mark 14:18, And as they sat and did eat, . . .

The supper was ended with the institution of the remembrance.

In John 13:2 all Byzantine codex have the being ended reading. Being 99.5% of codex of John. And c.200 AD P66. Codex Sinaiticus with it's second corrector, striking out the iota.

 

[Silverhair]

You have a poor memory.
Mark 14:18, And as they sat and did eat, . . .

The supper was ended with the institution of the remembrance.

In John 13:2 all Byzantine codex have the being ended reading. Being 99.5% of codex of John. And c.200 AD P66. Codex Sinaiticus with it's second corrector, striking out the iota.

How did I know that you would roll out your Byzantine text. You just will not accept that John agrees with Matthew "during the meal". An error copied a 100 times does not make it right it is still an error.

But you have locked yourself into your position and deny scripture so I will leave you to it.

 

[KenH]

Verses 20, "for you" included Judas.

So? If Judas Iscariot was, it would have been no different than if a reprobated person reads those words in the Bible or is present when the Lord's Supper is taken in 2024 and even partakes of it. Lots of folks who will not be saved have read or heard those words in the Bible and partaken of the Lord's Supper through the centuries.

 

[37818]

So? If Judas Iscariot was, it would have been no different than if a reprobated person reads those words in the Bible or is present when the Lord's Supper is taken in 2024 and even partakes of it. Lots of folks who will not be saved have read or heard those words in the Bible and partaken of the Lord's Supper through the centuries.

So? If Judas Iscariot was, it would have been no different than if a reprobated person reads those words in the Bible or is present when the Lord's Supper is taken in 2024 and even partakes of it. Lots of folks who will not be saved have read or heard those words in the Bible and partaken of the Lord's Supper through the centuries.

1 John 2:2, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[KenH]

1 John 2:2, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

"World" means that there are God's elect that Christ died for among Gentiles, as well as Jews. The Bible clearly teaches that Christ died for His sheep, chosen by God before the world began and given to Christ to be their Surety.

Christ did not die for the those whom God reprobated before the world began. To say that He did so is nothing but human sentimentality on the part of fallen mankind. There is no truth in teaching that Christ died for mankind without exception.

 

[37818]

.

"World" means that there are God's elect that Christ died for among Gentiles, as well as Jews. The Bible clearly teaches that Christ died for His sheep, chosen by God before the world began and given to Christ to be their Surety.

Christ did not die for the those whom God reprobated before the world began. To say that He did so is nothing but human sentimentality on the part of fallen mankind. There is no truth in teaching that Christ died for mankind without exception.

You are not making sense.

Because . . .

2 Peter 2:1, But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jude 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[37818]

How did I know that you would roll out your Byzantine text. You just will not accept that John agrees with Matthew "during the meal". An error copied a 100 times does not make it right it is still an error.

But you have locked yourself into your position and deny scripture so I will leave you to it.

During eating was ended with the institution of the remembrance prior to the foot washing and Judas being sent out in John 13.

 

[KenH]

2 Peter 2:1, But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

' Whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense; see Acts of the Apostles 20:28 whereas here is not the least hint of anything of this kind: add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ are the elect of God only, the people of Christ, his sheep and friends, and church, and who are never left to deny him so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or deceive, or be deceived finally and totally by damnable heresies, and bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ's purchase would be in vain, and the ransom price be paid for nought; but the word "bought" regards temporal mercies and deliverance, which these men enjoyed, and is used as an aggravation of their sin in denying the Lord; both by words, delivering out such tenets as are derogatory to the glory of the divine perfections, and which deny one or other of them, and of his purposes, providence, promises, and truths; and by works, turning the doctrine of the grace of God into lasciviousness, being disobedient and reprobate to every good work; that they should act this part against the Lord who had made them, and upheld them in their beings and took care of them in his providence, and had followed them with goodness and mercy all the days of their lives; just as Moses aggravates the ingratitude of the Jews in Deuteronomy 32:6 from whence this phrase is borrowed, and to which it manifestly refers: "do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise! is not he thy Father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?" '

- excerpt from John Gill's commentary on 2 Peter 2:1

 

[37818]

' Whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense; see Acts of the Apostles 20:28 whereas here is not the least hint of anything of this kind: add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ are the elect of God only, the people of Christ, his sheep and friends, and church, and who are never left to deny him so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or deceive, or be deceived finally and totally by damnable heresies, and bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ's purchase would be in vain, and the ransom price be paid for nought; but the word "bought" regards temporal mercies and deliverance, which these men enjoyed, and is used as an aggravation of their sin in denying the Lord; both by words, delivering out such tenets as are derogatory to the glory of the divine perfections, and which deny one or other of them, and of his purposes, providence, promises, and truths; and by works, turning the doctrine of the grace of God into lasciviousness, being disobedient and reprobate to every good work; that they should act this part against the Lord who had made them, and upheld them in their beings and took care of them in his providence, and had followed them with goodness and mercy all the days of their lives; just as Moses aggravates the ingratitude of the Jews in Deuteronomy 32:6 from whence this phrase is borrowed, and to which it manifestly refers: "do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise! is not he thy Father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?" '

- excerpt from John Gill's commentary on 2 Peter 2:1

The subject of this thread:
Luke 22:19-23 before John 13:2

 

[KenH]

Jude 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Obviously, there are unsaved people that teach false gospels in churches throughout the world( Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 ); just look at all of the teaching of false gospels on this board, where people are, in essence, calling God a failure by saying that He is not able to save everyone for whom Christ died, by claiming there are those in Hell for whom Christ paid their sin debt. If Christ paid a person's sin debt, then there is no debt left to send such a person to Hell. If Christ died for every person without exception, then every person without exception will be saved. If one is going to claim that Christ died for every person without exception, then such a person should at least be consistent and also claim that every person without exception will be saved.

 

[37818]

Obviously, there are unsaved people that teach false gospels in churches throughout the world( Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 ); just look at all of the teaching of false gospels on this board, where people are, in essence, calling God a failure by saying that He is not able to save everyone for whom Christ died, by claiming there are those in Hell for whom Christ paid their sin debt. If Christ paid a person's sin debt, then there is no debt left to send such a person to Hell. If Christ died for every person without exception, then every person without exception will be saved. If one is going to claim that Christ died for every person without exception, then such a person should at least be consistent and also claim that every person without exception will be saved.

Again, the subject of this thread:
Luke 22:19-23 before John 13:2

 

[Darrell C]

If Christ died for every person without exception, then every person without exception will be saved.

There's no reason to draw that conclusion. A bartender announces that drinks are on the house, yet several people do not get a drink, doesn't mean the offer didn't apply to them.

So too, Christ's Sacrifice was sufficient for "all" and "the world" just as we are told. That many will not benefit doesn't change that.

And sorry, the bar analogy was the first thing that came to mind. lol.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

If Christ died for every person without exception, then every person without exception will be saved.

Another illustration comes to mind:

Luke 16:27-31
King James Version

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Not only are we shown the level playing ground in v.29, the Lord expands that principle into New Covenant territory.

The Rich Man and his brothers have/had the same opportunity Lazarus had. God provided the means for their escape of judgment and they rejected it.


God bless.

 

[KenH]

And sorry, the bar analogy was the first thing that came to mind. lol.

I have no problem with the bar analogy. I am not a teetotaler.

 

[KenH]

Jonah 2:9 says, "Salvation is of the LORD." It does not say, "Salvation is of the LORD, as long as you can somehow finish what God cannot accomplish."

Matthew 1:21 says, "Thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins." It does not say, "Thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins, as long as they can somehow finish what He cannot accomplish."

Just before Christ died on the cross, in John 19:30, He did not say, "Well, I sure hope that at least one person somewhere, somehow will finish what I I cannot accomplish." Christ did say:

"IT IS FINISHED."

 

[Darrell C]

I have no problem with the bar analogy. I am not a teetotaler.

I am. Just didn't want anyone to be offended by it, lol.


God bless.

 

[37818]

The atonement was completed before John 19:28, . . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . .

Now the subject of this thread:
Luke 22:19-23 before John 13:2

 

[KenH]

The atonement was completed before John 19:28

It was finished when Christ said it was. He was not lying.