MacArthur's Ignorant Misrepresentation of Catholic Teaching

[BobRyan]

I agree. But MacArthur is in fact making a false accusation. Same with the Virgin Birth of Mary. He insinuates that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was born of a Virgin. It is ridiculous to try to spin it.

I am not trying to spin anything. MacArthur is not a theologian in my denomination so I would actually have no problem at all finding a difference between what he claims and what I think is accurate - on a number of topics. And I have agreed with you on point after point where I think MacArthur was not being accurate or was in fact mistaken.

And as you noted - there is no point in making false accusations about other denominations in my view - because silly stuff tends to get shot down rather quickly. So I am happy to state where he is mistaken -- but I would never say he is mistaken on every argument he makes any more than I would say that about anyone else.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[lori4dogs]

That is pure 'spin' Bob. He is, in fact saying 'so you need to go to Mary' because God (the Father) and Jesus are 'tough' guys. It means what it means.

Nothing in the documents you posted says that I must go to Mary instead of God Himself.

 

[DHK]

That is pure 'spin' Bob. He is, in fact saying 'so you need to go to Mary' because God (the Father) and Jesus are 'tough' guys. It means what it means.

Nothing in the documents you posted says that I must go to Mary instead of God Himself.

Then why are such blasphemous examples so easy to find, and believe me they are blasphemy.

“Lady, thou art so great and so powerful, that whoever desires grace yet does not turn to thee, would have his desire fly without wings”

 

[BobRyan]

That is pure 'spin' Bob. He is, in fact saying 'so you need to go to Mary' because God (the Father) and Jesus are 'tough' guys. It means what it means.

Nothing in the documents you posted says that I must go to Mary instead of God Himself.

Some of your prior points were easy to agree with - but in your statement above we have this to "compare" it to - as a papal statement - not by a "wicked pope" nor a simple offhanded papal comment at a picnic - but rather an official Papal letter in his office as Pope.

The supreme poet Dante expresses it marvellously in the lines sung by Saint Bernard: “Lady, thou art so great and so powerful, that whoever desires grace yet does not turn to thee, would have his desire fly without wings

You claim that nothing in that text makes it appear that you are not getting all the success going directly to God - as you would going through Mary.

I have to say that the Papal statement above - makes it appear that your prayers going directly to God instead of going to Mary - are in fact trying to "fly without wings" - and appears to fit MacArthur's "tough guy" paraphrase.

It is very difficult to dissallow MacArthur that level of freedom given the "fly without wings" affirmation from the Catholic church on that very point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[lori4dogs]

"It is very difficult to dissallow MacArthur that level of freedom given the "fly without wings" affirmation from the Catholic church on that very point."

Oh, and this is doctrine, right? Sounds poetic to me. Even if it were a bit 'over the top' is it possible for a pope to be mistaken? How about Blessed John MacArthur?


I guess anything he says about Catholicism is OK then, since as long as it 'defeats the Great Whore' it's, in the end, a good thing, eh?

 

[BobRyan]

"It is very difficult to dissallow MacArthur that level of freedom given the "fly without wings" affirmation from the Catholic church on that very point."

Oh, and this is doctrine, right? Sounds poetic to me. Even if it were a bit 'over the top' is it possible for a pope to be mistaken?

Let us say for a moment that the Pope was in error in making that affirmation. Was he also in error in attributing to Mary the salvation of the church in various times of crisis?

Let us say for the sake of argument that - again this Pope was in error.

Now we have MacArthur coming along and reading that never-denounced published statement from the Pope and many others like it - and then MacArthur makes a comment about praying to Mary and how Mary is viewed as compared to God - that is in harmony with those Papal statements (that you say are in error) but not with other statements from the Catholic church that you say are not in error.

does the fact that Macarthur is not reading your "filtered list" result in his making statements that agree with Papal published letters to the flock - that you say are in error?

Possibly so. But in your choosing to go after such a grey area - you leave the clear "that is clearly wrong" arena that you had when dealing with the virgin birth of Mary or the idea that Purgatory is another opportunity to choose heaven, or the idea that the RCC claims that no pope ever made a mistake on anything etc.

How about Blessed John MacArthur?

I have admitted to several areas where you brought up points about MacArthur's comments and I agreed that I thought you had a case.

I guess anything he says about Catholicism is OK then

How is it - that when I agree with you that MacArthur has made mistakes - you say "I guess anything he says about Catholicism is OK"??

how do we get to that point?

What have I said that leads you to that conclusion?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

"It is very difficult to dissallow MacArthur that level of freedom given the "fly without wings" affirmation from the Catholic church on that very point."

Oh, and this is doctrine, right? Sounds poetic to me. Even if it were a bit 'over the top' is it possible for a pope to be mistaken? How about Blessed John MacArthur?


I guess anything he says about Catholicism is OK then, since as long as it 'defeats the Great Whore' it's, in the end, a good thing, eh?

Compared to any Catholic Apologetic site that I have seen MacArthur is spot on. Guess who goes to extremes and way over the top? I don't think you are one to talk.
But the stepping on toes does hurt sometimes doesn't it?

 

[lori4dogs]

You have, indeed, agreed with me on several points. The question is not so much directed toward you as to others. So far, only a couple have conceded that MacArthur has, in fact, made false accusations about Catholicism. As you said early in this thread, 'accuracy is important' when discussing other Christian faiths.

"Let us say for a moment that the Pope was in error in making that affirmation. Was he also in error in attributing to Mary the salvation of the church in various times of crisis?"

I'm not familiar with the document and if you can post it I will do some research. Off hand I think I understand the statement and the reasoning for saying that but I try not to form an opinion without study.

 

[BobRyan]

Fair enough. If you will click on this link to my post on the prior page

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1553385&postcount=120

You will find at the bottom of that post the name of the document - the comments in red - that are of interest and also a link that takes you to the entire document at the Vatican website.

 

[lori4dogs]

Compared to any Catholic Apologetic site that I have seen MacArthur is spot on. Guess who goes to extremes and way over the top? I don't think you are one to talk.
But the stepping on toes does hurt sometimes doesn't it?

You think he is spot on? Imagine that!

He is right that it is Catholic doctrine that Mary was born of a Virgin?
He is right that it is Catholic doctrine that everything the pope says is w/o error
He is right that it is Catholic doctrine that Catholics must only 'go to Mary'? Etc.

 

[lori4dogs]

Fair enough. If you will click on this link to my post on the prior page

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1553385&postcount=120

You will find at the bottom of that post the name of the document - the comments in red - that are of interest and also a link that takes you to the entire document at the Vatican website.

Thanks, Bob. I have read the document some time ago, but will do so again and return with a reply.

 

[DHK]

You think he is spot on? Imagine that!

He is right that it is Catholic doctrine that Mary was born of a Virgin?
He is right that it is Catholic doctrine that everything the pope says is w/o error
He is right that it is Catholic doctrine that Catholics must only 'go to Mary'? Etc.

First, read the statement more carefully: Compared to... And yes, Compared to the RCC he is spot on, because the RCC doesn't know beans about the Baptist Faith and misrepresents it all the time.
Second, "that Mary was born of a Virgin" has already been explained to you, but you won't accept the explanation. You believe that MacArthur must be like the infallible Pope, right?
Third, he is right that Catholics must go to Mary. As a Catholic praying the rosary was demanded of us. And that is going to Mary.

 

[lori4dogs]

So, DHK, you are saying the Catholics Church demands I MUST pray the rosary? Can you show me the document that says I MUST pray the rosary.

Must be a new dogma I'm not aware of.

 

[BobRyan]

Prayers to Pope John Paul II

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/details_of_possible_pius_xii_miracle_emerge/
Rome, Italy, Jan 19, 2010 / 12:21 pm (CNA).- Some details of the case under investigation regarding a possible miracle attributed to Venerable Pope Pius XII have been made public. The story features not just one former Pontiff, but two

…
On Tuesday morning, Vatican journalist Andrea Tornielli published an article in Il Giornale describing at length the situation which "mysteriously involves" John Paul II.

Tornielli reported that this case was brought to the attention of Benedict XVI shortly before he approved a measure on Dec. 19, 2009 venerating Pope Pius XII's life of "heroic virtue," whose cause had been on-hold for the previous two years.

In 2005, a teacher of 31 years of age was expecting her third child in the city of Castellammare di Stabia. She began to have strong pains, which after many tests and a biopsy, signaled the presence of Burkitt's lymphoma. The condition is typified by swollen lymph nodes, often starting in the abdominal region, and the cancer can spread to bone marrow and spinal fluid. Not only was her health in danger, but that of her unborn child was also threatened.

The woman's husband first prayed for the intercession Pope John Paul II, who was then only recently buried in the crypt of St. Peter's. It wasn't long before the Holy Father appeared to the woman's husband in a dream. The spouse described to Tornielli what he saw that night, "He had a serious face. He said to me, 'I can't do anything, you must pray to this other priest...' He showed me the image of a thin, tall, lean priest. I didn't recognize him; I didn't know who he might be."

Several days passed before he, "by chance," came across a picture of Pope Pius XII in a magazine and recognized him as the man John Paul II had shown him in the dream.

The man wasted no time in bombarding Pius XII with prayers for his wife's healing and following her very first treatments she was declared free of the cancer, the tumor had disappeared. In fact, she was cured so quickly that her doctors pondered the notion that they may have originally misdiagnosed the pathology

Question - since prayers to those who have died is really just asking them to "pray with you" in some sense - what does it mean for them to say "'I can't do anything, you must pray to this other priest

All they are being asked to do is "pray" -- right?

 

[DHK]

So, DHK, you are saying the Catholics Church demands I MUST pray the rosary? Can you show me the document that says I MUST pray the rosary.

Must be a new dogma I'm not aware of.

Absolutely, any priest will tell you that a good Catholic MUST pray the rosary. Go to confession, and the result is: pray x no. of Hail Mary's (on the rosary of course).
Why would every good Catholic have a rosary if they were not expected to pray it. Surely you are not that naive?

 

[lori4dogs]

I suspect the Church will investigate all this at great length. There are many claims made in the way of miraculous healings, etc. The Church has declared very few of them authentic. Same goes for apparitions.

BTW, as a Catholic, I'm not bound to believe in any of the apparititions of Mary. The Church may have declared some of them authentic, but belief in them is not mandated on any Catholic.

 

[BobRyan]

I suspect the Church will investigate all this at great length. There are many claims made in the way of miraculous healings, etc.
.

My question is not about the validity of miracles and healing - I think that happened many times in the Bible and many times since then as well.

My question is about the statement "I can't do anything". In theory the "only thing" that they are being asked to "do" is to "pray for us" or to "pray with us" in some way. At least that is how it is always presented on these discussion boards. So it is quite amazing to hear them say they "can't do anything" as if only other people there "can pray".

What is going on?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

So, DHK, you are saying the Catholics Church demands I MUST pray the rosary? Can you show me the document that says I MUST pray the rosary.

Must be a new dogma I'm not aware of.

Why pray the Rosary today? Certainly, to grow in holiness and in one's prayer life.
The following are a few others reasons why the rosary should be prayed often, even daily:

"Among all the devotions approved by the Church none has been so favored by so many miracles as the devotion of the Most Holy Rosary" (Pope Pius IX).

"Say the Rosary every day to obtain peace for the world" (Our Lady of Fátima).

"There is no surer means of calling down God's blessings upon the family . . . than the daily recitation of the Rosary" (Pope Pius XII).

"We do not hesitate to affirm again publicly that we put great confidence in the Holy Rosary for the healing of evils of our times" (Pope Pius XII).

"No one can live continually in sin and continue to say the Rosary: either they will give up sin or they will give up the Rosary" (Bishop Hugh Doyle).

"The Rosary is a magnificent and universal prayer for the needs of the Church, the nations and the entire world" (Pope John XXIII).

"The Rosary is the compendium of the entire Gospel" (Pope Paul VI quoting Pope Pius XII).

"Meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary . . . can be an excellent preparation for the celebration of those same mysteries in the liturgical actions [i.e. the Mass] and can also become a continuing echo thereof" (Pope Paul VI).

"My impression is that the Rosary is of the greatest value not only according to the words of Our Lady at Fátima, but according to the effects of the Rosary one sees throughout history. My impression is that Our Lady wanted to give ordinary people, who might not know how to pray, this simple method of getting closer to God" (Sister Lucia, one of the seers of Fátima).

"How beautiful is the family that recites the Rosary every evening" (Pope John Paul II).

Pope John Paul II has called the Rosary his "favorite prayer," after the Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours.

St. Louis de Montfort warns us against both the ignorant and scholars who regard the Rosary as something of little importance..."the Rosary is a priceless treasure inspired by God."

http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/rosary/

From a well know Catholic website.

 

[lori4dogs]

Still waiting for that Catholic document that says a Catholic MUST pray the rosary.

The one you posted says a lot of wonderful things about the rosary, where does it say a Catholic must pray it? You said that MacArthur is right that the Catholic Church says we must only pray to Mary. Are you wrong again??

 

[DHK]

Still waiting for that Catholic document that says a Catholic MUST pray the rosary.

The one you posted says a lot of wonderful things about the rosary, where does it say a Catholic must pray it? You said that MacArthur is right that the Catholic Church says we must only pray to Mary. Are you wrong again??

The Church believes that it is necessary for a Christian to meditate (prayerfully think about) the will of God, the life and teachings of Jesus, the price He paid for our salvation, and so on. Unless we do this we will begin to take these great gifts for granted and ultimately fall away from the Lord. Every Christian must meditate in some way in order to preserve the gift of salvation (James 1:22-25). Many Catholic and non-Catholic Christians prayerfully read and apply Scripture to their lives, that is, meditate on them. With the rosary this can be done virtually anywhere and anytime.

Pray The Rosary ​

http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/rosary/how_to.htm

​

http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/rosary/scripture.htm



​