Made sinners?

[Van]

Romans 5:12:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (NASB)

Romans 5:19
For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.


Every translation I have found translates these in a similar way, ending with "because all sinned" indicating all humans sinned. However, another verse (Romans 9:11) indicates that babies in the womb have done nothing good or bad. However, abortion has murdered millions of these who had not done anything bad and therefore were not ever guilty of either a sin of commission or a sin of omission.

So what does God's inspired word mean when we are said to be made sinners and all sinned?

Two answers have been postulated, they had sinned because they were "guilty" of Adam's sin. However, this seems to violate the teaching that God does not punish the son for the sins of the father. The other, as a consequence of Adam's sin, all humans are "made sinners" and thus the correct understanding of Romans 5:12 is all are in a sinful separated from God state. However, that is not what the verse seems to say. Rather it clearly says we seem to have done something amiss.

Does anyone have an answer to this difficulty?

A solution to this dilemma is to consider that "sin" refers to both of its aspects, the action or thought or omission
and the consequence God imposes for the miss. Thus if "we have sinned means we have been made forfeiters of togetherness with God, then we can say "because all have forfeited.

This eliminates the difficulty, but is it sound interpretation?

 

[Piper]

In most Orthodox views, Adam is the Federal Head of humanity. We sinned because he sinned.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

Agree with Piper here. Adam was the Federal Head, representing all of humanity, and through him sin entered all of humanity, even babies in the womb.

Jesus was the 2nd Adam, another Federal Head also represented all of humanity, perfectly this time, and died for our sins, and reconciled those whom believe.

Many Christians, myself included, believe this also applies on a lesser scale to Christian Patriarchs. The sin of a wife or child in a household may produce small ripples affecting other family members, but the sin of the husband/father/patriarch produces tidal waves that swamp the other family members. The current rash of children raised as bastards because of poor fathers producing broken families is an example of this.

There's also an interesting stat about children continuing to go to Church if their father goes.

• If mother and father go to Church 33% of their children are regular Church attendees
• If mother goes to Church alone only 2% of the children are regular attendees
• If father goes to Church 38% of their children are regular Church attendees

The father's right or wrong actions have massive ripple effects on the family, and in Adam's case as Federal Head of humanity, his actions had massive ripple effects on all of humanity.

 

[Van]

In most Orthodox views, Adam is the Federal Head of humanity. We sinned because he sinned.

Once again, what do you mean by we sinned. Did we do something good or bad while in the womb? Not what scripture says.

 

[Van]

Agree with Piper here. Adam was the Federal Head, representing all of humanity, and through him sin entered all of humanity, even babies in the womb.
SNIP
.

What do you mean by "sin entered all humanity?" They certainly were "made sinners." But what does that mean? They forfeited fellowship with God, suffering the consequence of Adam's sin, and thus were conceived in iniquity. And what does Christ offer? Reconciliation, being brought back into fellowship with God.

Not really a difficult concept.

 

[Piper]

Once again, what do you mean by we sinned. Did we do something good or bad while in the womb? Not what scripture says.

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

 

[Van]

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

This is specifically addressed in the OP, i.e. because all forfeited.

 

[Piper]

This is specifically addressed in the OP, i.e. because all forfeited.

Sinned does not mean forfeited.

 

[Van]

Sinned does not mean forfeited.

Unbiblical nonsense. Sin refers both to the act and to the consequence.

 

[Van]

Once again we see posts claim my solution is wrong, but not saying what the correct solution is.

Did God punish the children for the sin of the father?

Did babies before they had done anything good or bad actually commit a sin?

I expect crickets.

 

[Piper]

Unbiblical nonsense. Sin refers both to the act and to the consequence.

You equating sinned with forfeited is absolute utter nonsense.

 

[Van]

The consequence of Adam's sin is that humanity forfeited fellowship with God. So we were not punished for the sin of the father, but the consequence of Adam's sin was imposed upon humanity.

 

[Van]

You equating sinned with forfeited is absolute utter nonsense.

As I indicated in post #10, no solution to the dilemma is offered.

 

[Piper]

As I indicated in post #10, no solution to the dilemma is offered.

Sinned means sinned.

 

[Van]

Sinned means sinned.

As I indicated in post #10, no solution to the dilemma is offered.

Just repeated denials of the obvious, if sin has no consequence, it is of no consequence.

The wages of sin is death.

Your iniquity has caused a separation.

 

[Van]

If sin has no consequence, it is of no consequence.

The wages of sin is death.

Your iniquity has caused a separation.

Sounds like all of humanity forfeited fellowship with God as a consequence of Adam's sin.

This is not a difficult concept.

 

[Piper]

If sin has no consequence, it is of no consequence.

The wages of sin is death.

Your iniquity has caused a separation.

Sounds like all of humanity forfeited fellowship with God as a consequence of Adam's sin.

This is not a difficult concept.

But the word translated sinned is NEVER translated "forfeited." ημαρτον means erred or sinned. BAD understanding of translation theory, young Padawan.

 

[Van]

But the word translated sinned is NEVER translated "forfeited." ημαρτον means erred or sinned. BAD understanding of translation theory, young Padawan. "CRICKETS"

Loss of fellowship can be said to be forfeiture of fellowship, thus sin has consequences including forfeiting fellowship.

 

[Van]

But the word translated sinned is NEVER translated "forfeited." ημαρτον means erred or sinned. BAD understanding of translation theory, young Padawan. "CRICKETS"

Loss of fellowship with God, i.e. forfeiture, is a well accepted consequence of sin.

 

[Van]

Mark 8:36
For what benefit is it for a person to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his life?

The consequence God imposes for sin is a loss of fellowship with God, thus all who were "made sinner" have forfeited fellowship with God.

If we are together with Christ we are made alive, and if we are separated from God we are dead in our sin.

Thus if "we have sinned" means we have been made forfeiters of togetherness with God, then we can say "because all have forfeited meaning all have suffered the consequence of Adam's sin.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp.