Magic Blood Theory

[percho]

I agree depending on what you mean by "wrath of God satisfied".

If you mean that there is no wrath against Christ (there never was) and in Him we escape the wrath to come (clothed in His righteousness), then I agree.

If you mean God could only forgive sin after or by punishing sin, then I disagree.

I guess it goes back to an old thread relative to whether 2 Cor 5:21 is made sin or made sin offering and I still go with made, sin.

I believe God (the Father) making the Son of God, sin is the wrath of God poured out on the Son, resulting in the Son pouring out his soul unto death (dismissing the spirit of him in the blood unto the hands of the Father) being unclean for three days relative to the Father. At the end of three days, regeneration of the Son washed away our sins in the blood of him when he was made sin.

Consider: And if Christ be not raised, (regenerated, out of the dead. col 1:18 who is beginning first-born out of the dead ones) your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Your sins were not washed away in his blood.

Now consider:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Eph 2:3
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, (Because of the raised Christ out of the dead) but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:11

Actually Rev 1:5 says the same thing.
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

[AustinC]

That is a very strange conclusion ..."magic blood"????

I served in the Army. I had friends who paid the ultimate price for their service...they died in the line of duty. Who did they pay? Did they have "magic blood"?
No, and nobody. But they still paid a price in defense of our nation's interest

The freedoms we enjoy in the US was bought with a price. Who was paid? Nobody. Yet there was still a price paid.

Do I believe as you....that God caused God to experience God's wrath instead of us to pay God for us so that we would be freed from slavery to God and made slaves of God?

No, of course not. I am a Christian who believes the Bible.

No, Jon, they didn't pay a price. They just died by being murdered because they enlisted in the military and someone killed them. War is just a big murder game where people fight to control what they think is theirs. So...no price paid. Just another human murdered.
Is that what you are suggesting Jesus death was? Merely an innocent person, murdered because he obeyed God?
Jon, you cannot use the term "paid the price" without actually having a buyer and seller where there is an exchange of something to make the transaction. That's what the term actually and literally means. But, you seem intent on cheapening this to something that didn't really purchase anything.

Honestly, you make no sense.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, there are many who teach this.

If you want ancient authors there is Justin Martyr, Augustine, Gregory, Ignatius, Clement, Jerome, and John Chrysostom (just to name afew) a few.

As far as more modern theology goes you have Anabaptist Theology and Eastern theology.

Modern groups include many Anglican churches, some Baptist churches, all Amish churches, all Mennonite churches, and all Eastern churches. There are Reformed churches that have moved from Penal Substitution Theory and rely on Scripture as well (many Presbyterian churches, many in the Federation of Reformed Churches).

Penal Substitution Theory has been a minority view (a large minority in the Western world) since its arrival.

nonsense.

 

[AustinC]

Literally being God's only son placed in a womb by the Holy Spirit, it isn't that His blood is "magic" but Holy and pure; undeserving of punishment, but sent because of the Father's love, mercy, and compassion for us.

So, the actual red and white blood cells of Jesus were holy and pure and God the Father, sending us this holy and pure blood out of love, mercy, and compassion for us, just automatically saves anyone who believes this?

 

[Iconoclast]

No, Jon, they didn't pay a price. They just died by being murdered because they enlisted in the military and someone killed them. War is just a big murder game where people fight to control what they think is theirs. So...no price paid. Just another human murdered.
Is that what you are suggesting Jesus death was? Merely an innocent person, murdered because he obeyed God?
Jon, you cannot use the term "paid the price" without actually having a buyer and seller where there is an exchange of something to make the transaction. That's what the term actually and literally means. But, you seem intent on cheapening this to something that didn't really purchase anything.

Honestly, you make no sense.

yes exactly. Read any of his posts...he does the same thing...say the words divorced from any meaning.

 

[JesusFan]

In a closed thread on atonement @JonC concluded a point by saying, "Who was paid? Nobody was paid. We were bought with a price. Christ's blood."

The only conclusion I could make from this is that Jesus shed blood was magical blood that didn't pay anyone or anything, but somehow bought something that cost something. And the conclusion is...Christ's blood.

If it does nothing yet buys something, but pays no one, I can only conclude it's magic blood. What else could it be?

Now, if you're as confused by Jon's statement as I am, I am pretty sure I just confused you even more because, well, it's just a bundle of confusing confusion, but somehow it's biblical and everything else is just philosophical without any biblical support so we got that going for us, which is nice.

It does seem to very speculative "philosophy!"

 

[AustinC]

Let's make this thread a bit more honest.

What did I really claim?

1. God sent Jesus as a sin offering that we may be saved.

2. On the Cross God was reconciling man to Himself. We now have the ministry of reconciliation.

3. The Son became flesh, became man, bore our sins bodily, and shared in our infirmaty. Because we were flesh Christ became flesh.

4. Christ became a curse for us, was made sin for us. He died for our sin. He suffered the wages we deserved (the wages of sin, which is death). Man is reconciled to God by Christ's death, men are saved by His life.

5. Christ died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit.

6. Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world. All judgment has been given Him and in Him there is no condemnation. In Him we escape the wrath to come. This is the wrath of God against the wicked.

7. Christ won the victory over evil, over Satan, and freed us from the bonds of sin and death.

What did @Iconoclast post that I said?



Now - LOOK at what I have posted and at @Iconoclast claim about what I said. Discern who is being honest here and who is trying to obscure the disagreement.

What did I really reject? I rejected the additions others read into God's Word (added to the text of Scripture).

So @DaveXR650 nailed it. You essentially endorse penal substitutionary atonement, but hate the label.

 

[JesusFan]

Literally being God's only son placed in a womb by the Holy Spirit, it isn't that His blood is "magic" but Holy and pure; undeserving of punishment, but sent because of the Father's love, mercy, and compassion for us.

Unless Jesus died in our and in our place, would have accomplished nothing!

 

[JesusFan]

Lol.
Yes...Roman's 8:1 was also invoked in a magical way.
That is a fine verse for sure.
It was explained to us that believe it, that somehow we need to believe it, but evidently in a magical way also.
We are not to understand the reason that the revealed wrath of Romans 1 does not come our way is that Jesus is the propitiation turning that much deserved wrath away from us....as the God given solution as He suffered in our place.The broken law of God was fully satisfied by His active and passive obedience...even unto death on the cross.
So....there is no condemnation to those in saving union In Christ.
No...we.just make as if we were not "children of wrath even as others".But God who is rich in mercy needed to save us.
Why was Paul all caught up on this "wrath of God" thing?
Did he not read Col.2?.....oh wait, hold on, he wrote Col.2 also?
Must be something else....what could it be?

Well, those who refuse to accept Psa do deny the wrath of God!

 

[JesusFan]

No, Jon, they didn't pay a price. They just died by being murdered because they enlisted in the military and someone killed them. War is just a big murder game where people fight to control what they think is theirs. So...no price paid. Just another human murdered.
Is that what you are suggesting Jesus death was? Merely an innocent person, murdered because he obeyed God?
Jon, you cannot use the term "paid the price" without actually having a buyer and seller where there is an exchange of something to make the transaction. That's what the term actually and literally means. But, you seem intent on cheapening this to something that didn't really purchase anything.

Honestly, you make no sense.

The death of Christ spared and saved us from the wrath of God due to us, as he purchased us back into His kingdom thru His shed blood!

 

[percho]

No, Jon, they didn't pay a price. They just died by being murdered because they enlisted in the military and someone killed them. War is just a big murder game where people fight to control what they think is theirs. So...no price paid. Just another human murdered.
Is that what you are suggesting Jesus death was? Merely an innocent person, murdered because he obeyed God?
Jon, you cannot use the term "paid the price" without actually having a buyer and seller where there is an exchange of something to make the transaction. That's what the term actually and literally means. But, you seem intent on cheapening this to something that didn't really purchase anything.

Honestly, you make no sense.

Methinks that hits nail on the head. Jesus bought back our life through his death, yet there would be no, "through," except by the grace of God (the Father) in giving the promise of God, who can not lie, to the Son of God born of woman. Gal 3:16-21

If Christ, The Son of the living God, be not raised, you are still in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17

 

[JonC]

No, Jon, they didn't pay a price. They just died by being murdered because they enlisted in the military and someone killed them. War is just a big murder game where people fight to control what they think is theirs. So...no price paid. Just another human murdered.
Is that what you are suggesting Jesus death was? Merely an innocent person, murdered because he obeyed God?
Jon, you cannot use the term "paid the price" without actually having a buyer and seller where there is an exchange of something to make the transaction. That's what the term actually and literally means. But, you seem intent on cheapening this to something that didn't really purchase anything.

Honestly, you make no sense.

No. We all pay prices for our choices.

The word "price" is the cost at which something is obtained"

"Pay" is to "suffer a loss or other misfortune as a consequence of an action."

Jesus paid for us with His own blood. He did not collect His blood and give it to somebody.

I am not sure if English is your first language, but either way you should invest in a dictionary.

 

[DaveXR650]

So @DaveXR650 nailed it. You essentially endorse penal substitutionary atonement, but hate the label.

I had asked Jon for some references and he gave me a few. I haven't had much time but I looked at the Mennonite website re the atonement and they kind of explain what he's doing. I think it's so close that I seem to be unable to debate it because I can't grasp the subtle differences. I was in a Missionary church for a long time and they had a connection to the Mennonites which is why I looked at their site first.

 

[JonC]

nonsense.

Yet it is true. Just like you ate unable to find what you believe is taught in Scripture you will find yourself unable to find any of the examples expressing your theory.

Your denial of the Truth has no effect on the Truth itself.

 

[JesusFan]

No. We all pay prices for our choices.

The word "price" is the cost at which something is obtained"

"Pay" is to "suffer a loss or other misfortune as a consequence of an action."

Jesus paid for us with His own blood. He did not collect His blood and give it to somebody.

I am not sure if English is your first language, but either way you should invest in a dictionary.

We own to God the father a sin debt for breaking His own law

 

[JesusFan]

I had asked Jon for some references and he gave me a few. I haven't had much time but I looked at the Mennonite website re the atonement and they kind of explain what he's doing. I think it's so close that I seem to be unable to debate it because I can't grasp the subtle differences. I was in a Missionary church for a long time and they had a connection to the Mennonites which is why I looked at their site first.

Still seems to me like very close to NT Wright and the NPP view!

 

[JesusFan]

Yet it is true. Just like you ate unable to find what you believe is taught in Scripture you will find yourself unable to find any of the examples expressing your theory.

Your denial of the Truth has no effect on the Truth itself.

When and how is the wrath that you and I deserve in judgement get propitiated?

 

[JonC]

So @DaveXR650 nailed it. You essentially endorse penal substitutionary atonement, but hate the label.

In your and his view, perhaps. If ypu mean by Penal Substitution Theory what is written in Scripture, then yes - that is what I believe. I have no issue, for example, with the SBC's resolution confirming Penal Substitution Theory because it just provides passages to contradict Weaver's "bloodless Atonement".

I do not like the label because to many Penal Substitution Theory means another gospel....an addition to Scripture (that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us, Christ experienced Gid's wrath, Christ's death appeased God, etc.).

Since your view of Penal Substitution Theory is my posted view, then yes....we completely agree (of course). We merely disagree on the label.

And you have my apologies for assuming you meant that you believed the false doctrine I call "Penal Substitution Theory").

 

[Duckie]

Did the following have anything to Jesus being born?

o·o·cyte
(ō'ō-sīt),
Female gamete or sex cell. When fertilized by a sperm, an oocyte is capable of developing into a new individual of the same species; during matuation, the oocyte, like the sperm, undergoes a halving of its chromosomal complement so that, at its union with the male gamete, the species number of chromosome (46 in humans) is maintained; yolk contained in the oocytes of different animal species varies greatly in amount and distribution, which influences the pattern of the cleavage divisions.

Was a oocyte of the virgin Mary caused to divide out of Spirit?

τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν ἐκ πνεύματός --- from Matt 1:20

No

Luke 1:26-38

But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” And the angel said to her in reply, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God."

You can't try to put a scientific explanation on a miracle that was prophesied in the Old Testament. If you are you are not understanding what a miracle is.

Jesus said, "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:39-40)

So, the actual red and white blood cells of Jesus were holy and pure and God the Father, sending us this holy and pure blood out of love, mercy, and compassion for us, just automatically saves anyone who believes this?

The wisdom of this world is foolishness to God and the things of the spirit can only be discerned by the spirit. Our limited human understanding doesn't limit what He does. He doesn't live within any boundaries of what man considers possible.

In sciencey terms, you are an observer, but you are not the designer. The designer knows more than you and He doesn't care if you understand how the gift works, He just wants you to accept it.

That's where the faith stuff comes in

 

[Iconoclast]

Yet it is true. Just like you ate unable to find what you believe is taught in Scripture you will find yourself unable to find any of the examples expressing your theory.

Your denial of the Truth has no effect on the Truth itself.

when i get on my laptop, i will show it from post after post.
I have to drop a stop in Auburn Hills, then get over to Grand Rapids.later on.that is when it will happen.
you will see for yourself what every one has said.