Featured Major Contradiction in 1686 Westminster Confession

Hold up!

That is NOT what the WC is contending about in the last paragraph of the last section.

That is reading into the statement what you desire instead of what is written.

I agree, but the natural man will still react to the Word of God - if no more than to let it lay in the sun of the stony heart.

No one is arguing that "unbelief is the sin that condemns..."

The police (believer) is the ticket giver (deliverer of the gospel) - God is the final judge appointing the punishment.

You again extrapolate the WC to the wrong.

NO Where is the last statement of the final point talking of the "sinner can be deterred from such judgment."

Again, you are equating "deter" which means hindered with final judgment/salvation or damnation.

see above for your own mistake

My how you have taken what I posted to where it was never intended!

However, it IS the churches' responsibility to teach folks how to live, for THAT is what most of Paul and Peter's writing was about as well as most of the Old Testament by example.

I have already given an honest answer - you reject the answer. In so doing now you pervert what I have stated and even now question my integrity.


The WC at this last statement is not considering the "sin of unbelief" that is handled quite effectively elsewhere in the WC.

Because the question of "sin of unbelief" is answer elsewhere and because the theme of the last statement is to bring a certain encouragement and quest to the believer (as did John's last words of the Revelation), then it is without cause that YOU want to assign meaning to words merely to fit your argument.

Your OP is a faulty statement that cannot be supported, and it is sad that you have so stubbornly refused to fully recant.

 

Ask and you shall receive: From 1 Peter 2

"11Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation."​

I am not in a position to infer what "sin" the WC is referring too. However, the topic of salvation is handled effectively earlier in the work of the WC, so it could be any sin that besets upon the heathen.

What consequences of unhindered sin run a muck ("not being deterred") can be seen in the living and lives of believer or heathen by anyone with insight into living by principle.

You are asking a question in which mistakenly misapplies the last statement of the final paragraph of the WC.

It has been answered by correcting your mistaken application, and you have rejected the answer.

Answering the question as YOU phrase it is not only endorsing your mistaken misapplication, but would serve to mislead you into thinking that your question is even valid - which it is not.

A better question that WOULD fit this portion of the WC would be:

"Can a heathen that is foreordained to eternal death be deterred from some measure of sin through the life lived and spoken word by a believer?"

The answer as YOU have admitted is yes.

 

And I think any reasonable person would conclude that this is the intent and meaning that the WC attaches to the word "deter".

 

Let's be honest here. I'm no Calvinist, but you are framing the question unfairly. Nowhere does the WC say the sin to be deterred by knowledge of the coming judgment is the sin of unbelief.

You have a point (I think) but you in your zeal to denigrate Calvinism you are putting words where there were no words. Both sides are guilty of this.

 

Agreed!:thumbsup:

 

Of course not.

Eternal damnation.

Because he is an unregenerate, unrepentant sinner.

Might possibly cause some to not sin as heartily has they have been sinning.

Your question makes no sense. Eternal damnation is the default setting for humans. They already on their way to Hell. Fear of eternal judgment could stop people from committing individual sins.

Yes, that's how I understand the WC as well.

Maybe so, but there is in the WC.

Always? I think not.

The WC doesn't say that, no one here has said that, only you keep asserting this.

Or maybe you are reading it wrongly.

 

I never stated that sinners would CEASE from ACTS of sin. I stated they would be deterred (hindered). Again, I point to the illustration of the speeding and red light.

Do all speed at some point? most likely
Do they do so when they know the police are present? most likely NOT.

The believer is as the police in this world. We live by the strength of the Holy Spirit, and because of that the believer brings a certain level of rebuke to the world and a push back from the world and systems of the world. Without the Holy Spirit and believers' influence, the world would soon be as those who did whatever was right in their own eyes.

Just as every street worthy car has some sort of meter to give the driver an indication of how fast they are going over the speed limit, most dare not speed (sin) too much (in excess) because fear of possible rebuke lingers.

This is consistent with what this agedman has stated throughout this thread.

Also, I would like to address this sentence in your post, "Judgment was always preached as a deterrent to persuade the sinner to repent and turn to Christ for salvation."

Now on the surface that is arguably a correct sentence. However, Judgment is not always preached. Look at this selection from Acts (using the NIV):

14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: 15 “Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them. 16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17 Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.” 18 Even with these words, they had difficulty keeping the crowd from sacrificing to them.​

There is no "judgment" being preached.

And earlier when Paul preached:

38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. 40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

41 “‘Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.’”​

42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. ​

Again, no judgment preached.

Note: Paul is quoting (the double indented part) from Habakah (if memory serves) and does not disturb the message of that prophet. But, just because "perish" is mentioned, is no license to state that Paul was preaching Judgment. He was preaching on justification.

So, I suppose your sentence although arguably one could "assert" that judgment was "implied" in the preaching of Paul, in fact judgment is NOT preached.

Why? Because the Jews (and Gentiles) know they are "condemned already."

That is part of the old nature and why every society has some kind of religion in which the god must be appeased through some act of sacrifice and offerings.

 

You will need to point to specific posts in which "a sinner that cleaning up their act PRIOR to salvation is the intention of the gospel," is even IMPLIED by agedman or anyone else that has posted on this thread.

Because that was NOT the "implication of the majority of the responses given here..." you are found to be embellishing, exaggerating, evangelistic-ally speaking, story telling, fibbing, or any other watered down word to replace being called a liar.

PLEASE don't let your zeal, to find something in which to save face in contending for the OP, drive you resort to this kind of tactic.



Perhaps you are confused about the work of the Holy Spirit in the living and lives of believers that hinders (deters) the evil of this world, but that is a long way from any post that would endorse what you stated here. Neither does such confusion warrant such an accusation.

Perhaps you just need to recant, apologize, and be willing to admit that perhaps there is middle ground that all can fellowship upon.

Why not start a thread with the first section of the WC and point out possible strengths and weaknesses of that section. Each subsequent thread would be upon the following section and every subsequent thread until a body of work has been accomplished upon the WC by the BB.

Stay away from label calling, and use Scriptures and Scriptural principle to bring solid foundation to build your view.

Let the BB discuss from Scriptures each item and then all would be edified.

I have no wish for you to become emotionally raw and distraught, but merely seek to help you gain insight. As another poster stated, "We may be closer than you think," on much and have little of substance in which to actually disagree.

 

The existence of a law does not necessarily deter one from breaking the law. It is the successful enforcement of the law and prosecution thereof which deters. But our enforcement/punishment system is seriously dysfunctional. Our jails are overfilled--mostly drug related crimes.

Thou shalt not... is an interesting subject to study. Some of Israel was making a golden calf while Moses was receiving the Ten Commandments. The folk died in the wilderness. Moses never got to the promised land either, having disobeyed God. Is the promised land a type of heaven?

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

Ahh...I see. The problem is in your reading comprehension.