Major Contradiction in 1686 Westminster Confession

[DrJamesAch]

But that IS the issue of part of the posts, and it is good to see you finally admit that work is part of the living of a believer.

But to the latter part of the paragraph of your post:

Deterrent does not even come close to equating to salvation. (see red light speed sign illustration)

The last section of the WC has everything to do with justice and judgment, and the eternity of heathen, believers and angels.

The last statement of the last section is an affirmation that believers should not be overwhelmed, weary, ... but assured that in the final accounting there is a great day for which to look forward with anticipation, and some dread - for who wants all their live and living displayed for all to see?


You desire it to be in contrast to other sections of the WC, which it is not, and your attempt to make it seem as though has failed.

However, you can't accept (though in this post you admit it could be true) is that the believers through the work of the Holy Spirit are a hindrance to the work of the evil one(s) and will be until that man of sin is revealed.

As such, there is NO conflict and no contradiction as you supposed in the OP.

Once again, to show that you do not understand the issue, nor have stated it correctly you are avoiding the question, so I'll ask it again:

Can a sinner that is foreordained to eternal death be deterred from the sin of unbelief that will eternally condemn him?

 

[agedman]

You are STILL missing the point. This not about deterring evil ACTIONS. It is about deterring man from a decision to remain IN SIN by rejecting Jesus Christ as the DELIVER from the PENALTY of sin, not the PRESENCE of sin. It is the latter that you are arguing for and that's not what the WC is contending about.

Hold up!

That is NOT what the WC is contending about in the last paragraph of the last section.

That is reading into the statement what you desire instead of what is written.

The Bible never tells a believer to preach the gospel in order to assist the sinner in foreboding from evil acts. Judgment as a deterrent is to convince the sinner that living IN UNBELIEF is the sin that condemns him to eternal punishment.

I agree, but the natural man will still react to the Word of God - if no more than to let it lay in the sun of the stony heart.

No one is arguing that "unbelief is the sin that condemns..."

The police (believer) is the ticket giver (deliverer of the gospel) - God is the final judge appointing the punishment.

Yes, it is an evil heart that produces evil actions, but the fact that an evil heart is FOREORDAINED TO BE EVIL according to the WC and therefore FOREORDAINED TO HELL still serves to prove that there is a contradiction in the WC if it is believed that a sinner can be deterred from such JUDGMENT by having the consequences of his rejection and rebellion explained to him. If a person is foreordained to eternal damnation, nothing that is said about his evil heart or evil actions will deter him from his destiny because being foreordained to eternal damnation DEMANDS THAT HE CAN NOT BE DETERRED.

You again extrapolate the WC to the wrong.

NO Where is the last statement of the final point talking of the "sinner can be deterred from such judgment."

Again, you are equating "deter" which means hindered with final judgment/salvation or damnation.

Again you are still making the argument for being deterred from evil actions and that is NOT what the WC nor my OP is referring to , and you can't make the discussion revolved around that no matter how hard you try. It is you that is not thinking through what I posted because you continue to misstate the point even though I have thoroughly explained it repeatedly.

see above for your own mistake

... edited to save space....

You keep writing as if the purpose of the church and this statement in the WC means that the church's purpose is to teach men how to live good lives instead of demanding repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. You are focusing on their WORKS instead of their BELIEFS, and preaching judgment as a deterrent is an appeal to BELIEFS not ACTIONS, and as such you have presented not only an gross interpretation of the WC, but a serious flaw in your own explication of the purpose of the church and the Holy Spirit.

My how you have taken what I posted to where it was never intended!

However, it IS the churches' responsibility to teach folks how to live, for THAT is what most of Paul and Peter's writing was about as well as most of the Old Testament by example.

It is clear that you don't understand the argument, so let's make this really simple with just a question:

Can a sinner that is foreordained to eternal death be deterred from the sin of unbelief that will eternally condemn him?

If you can't answer that question then you can't give an honest answer to this debate.

I have already given an honest answer - you reject the answer. In so doing now you pervert what I have stated and even now question my integrity.


The WC at this last statement is not considering the "sin of unbelief" that is handled quite effectively elsewhere in the WC.

Because the question of "sin of unbelief" is answer elsewhere and because the theme of the last statement is to bring a certain encouragement and quest to the believer (as did John's last words of the Revelation), then it is without cause that YOU want to assign meaning to words merely to fit your argument.

Your OP is a faulty statement that cannot be supported, and it is sad that you have so stubbornly refused to fully recant.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Hold up!

That is NOT what the WC is contending about in the last paragraph of the last section.

That is reading into the statement what you desire instead of what is written.





I agree, but the natural man will still react to the Word of God - if no more than to let it lay in the sun of the stony heart.

No one is arguing that "unbelief is the sin that condemns..."

The police (believer) is the ticket giver (deliverer of the gospel) - God is the final judge appointing the punishment.



You again extrapolate the WC to the wrong.

NO Where is the last statement of the final point talking of the "sinner can be deterred from such judgment."

Again, you are equating "deter" which means hindered with final judgment/salvation or damnation.



see above for your own mistake




My how you have taken what I posted to where it was never intended!

However, it IS the churches' responsibility to teach folks how to live, for THAT is what most of Paul and Peter's writing was about as well as most of the Old Testament by example.



I have already given an honest answer - you reject the answer. In so doing now you pervert what I have stated and even now question my integrity.


The WC at this last statement is not considering the "sin of unbelief" that is handled quite effectively elsewhere in the WC.

Because the question of "sin of unbelief" is answer elsewhere and because the theme of the last statement is to bring a certain encouragement and quest to the believer (as did John's last words of the Revelation), then it is without cause that YOU want to assign meaning to words merely to fit your argument.

Your OP is a faulty statement that cannot be supported, and it is sad that you have so stubbornly refused to fully recant.

The church does not teach SINNERS how to live, it teaches CHRISTIANS how to live. Show me one single verse in the Bible where the church teaches a SINNER how to live? Sinner being an unsaved, unregenerate person that has rejected Christ. You can't. Even in one of your other responses to my statement about 2 Peter 3, you claimed that "Peter is talking to Christians not to the unsaved" so now you are making a 180 degree flip flop on your argument against 2 Peter 3:7-10.

Furthermore, what sin is the WC referring to then when using the preaching of judgment as a deterrent? A deterrent FROM WHAT?? What are the consequences of NOT BEING DETERRED? And what sin results in those consequences?

And again, you have not answered the question: Humor me, assume that you are right, that I don't understand the WC (I mean, you said so yourself so it must be true), assume that I don't get it, and that you are right, then help a misguided person out by answering the question with a simple yes or no:

Can a sinner that is foreordained to eternal death be deterred from the sin of unbelief that will eternally condemn him?

 

[DrJamesAch]

That's what I thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

 

[agedman]

The church does not teach SINNERS how to live, it teaches CHRISTIANS how to live. Show me one single verse in the Bible where the church teaches a SINNER how to live? Sinner being an unsaved, unregenerate person that has rejected Christ. You can't. Even in one of your other responses to my statement about 2 Peter 3, you claimed that "Peter is talking to Christians not to the unsaved" so now you are making a 180 degree flip flop on your argument against 2 Peter 3:7-10.

Ask and you shall receive: From 1 Peter 2

"11Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation."​

Furthermore, what sin is the WC referring to then when using the preaching of judgment as a deterrent? A deterrent FROM WHAT?? What are the consequences of NOT BEING DETERRED? And what sin results in those consequences?

I am not in a position to infer what "sin" the WC is referring too. However, the topic of salvation is handled effectively earlier in the work of the WC, so it could be any sin that besets upon the heathen.

What consequences of unhindered sin run a muck ("not being deterred") can be seen in the living and lives of believer or heathen by anyone with insight into living by principle.

And again, you have not answered the question: Humor me, assume that you are right, that I don't understand the WC (I mean, you said so yourself so it must be true), assume that I don't get it, and that you are right, then help a misguided person out by answering the question with a simple yes or no:

Can a sinner that is foreordained to eternal death be deterred from the sin of unbelief that will eternally condemn him?

You are asking a question in which mistakenly misapplies the last statement of the final paragraph of the WC.

It has been answered by correcting your mistaken application, and you have rejected the answer.

Answering the question as YOU phrase it is not only endorsing your mistaken misapplication, but would serve to mislead you into thinking that your question is even valid - which it is not.

A better question that WOULD fit this portion of the WC would be:

"Can a heathen that is foreordained to eternal death be deterred from some measure of sin through the life lived and spoken word by a believer?"

The answer as YOU have admitted is yes.

 

[Mexdeaf]

"Can a heathen that is foreordained to eternal death be deterred from some measure of sin through the life lived and spoken word by a believer?"

The answer as YOU have admitted is yes.

And I think any reasonable person would conclude that this is the intent and meaning that the WC attaches to the word "deter".

 

[InTheLight]

Once again, to show that you do not understand the issue, nor have stated it correctly you are avoiding the question, so I'll ask it again:

Can a sinner that is foreordained to eternal death be deterred from the sin of unbelief that will eternally condemn him?

Let's be honest here. I'm no Calvinist, but you are framing the question unfairly. Nowhere does the WC say the sin to be deterred by knowledge of the coming judgment is the sin of unbelief.

You have a point (I think) but you in your zeal to denigrate Calvinism you are putting words where there were no words. Both sides are guilty of this.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Let's be honest here. I'm no Calvinist, but you are framing the question unfairly. Nowhere does the WC say the sin to be deterred by knowledge of the coming judgment is the sin of unbelief.

You have a point (I think) but you in your zeal to denigrate Calvinism you are putting words where there were no words. Both sides are guilty of this.

Agreed!:thumbsup:

 

[DrJamesAch]

Let's be honest here. I'm no Calvinist, but you are framing the question unfairly. Nowhere does the WC say the sin to be deterred by knowledge of the coming judgment is the sin of unbelief.

You have a point (I think) but you in your zeal to denigrate Calvinism you are putting words where there were no words. Both sides are guilty of this.

There are things that one would have to ask to clarify the statement to understand the question the way I asked it. Section XXXIII, pIII refers to preaching judgment to deter all men from sin

1. Judgment FROM WHAT?
2. What SIN?

If judgment is preached about adultery, fornication, drunkenness, and the sinner quits all of those, but doesn't believe, is he saved?

Webster 1828 "Deter":

1. To discourage and stop by fear; to stop or prevent from acting or proceeding, by danger, difficulty or other consideration which disheartens, or countervails the motive for an act. We are often deterred from out duty by trivial difficulties. The state of the road or a cloudy sky may deter a man from undertaking a journey.
A million of frustrated hopes will not deter us from new experiments.
2. To prevent by prohibition or danger.

What danger is the sinner facing? Why is he facing it? And what does preaching judgment as a deterrent accomplish?

So thus the question I asked is accurate and fair. I could even take the "sin of belief" part out and the question still wouldn't get answered:

Can a sinner ordained to eternal damnation be deterred from sin that leads to eternal damnation.

What agedman has tried to do is make it appear that the WC is referring to preaching judgment as a deterrent that cause sinners to cease from ACTS of sin. There is not one place in the NT where JUDGMENT was preached to a sinner as a means of attempting to prevent or reduce the sinners actions. Judgment was always preached as a deterrent to persuade the sinner to repent and turn to Christ for salvation.

No Biblically sound minister worth their salt tells a sinner that cleaning up their act PRIOR to salvation is the intention of the gospel, and yet that is the implication of the majority of the responses given here attempting to ascribe that very meaning to this WC statement. So either there is still an explicit contradiction, or the manner in which Calvinists are viewing this is a works-salvation.

 

[InTheLight]

If judgment is preached about adultery, fornication, drunkenness, and the sinner quits all of those, but doesn't believe, is he saved?

Of course not.

What danger is the sinner facing?

Eternal damnation.

Why is he facing it?

Because he is an unregenerate, unrepentant sinner.

And what does preaching judgment as a deterrent accomplish?

Might possibly cause some to not sin as heartily has they have been sinning.

Can a sinner ordained to eternal damnation be deterred from sin that leads to eternal damnation.

Your question makes no sense. Eternal damnation is the default setting for humans. They already on their way to Hell. Fear of eternal judgment could stop people from committing individual sins.

What agedman has tried to do is make it appear that the WC is referring to preaching judgment as a deterrent that cause sinners to cease from ACTS of sin.

Yes, that's how I understand the WC as well.

There is not one place in the NT where JUDGMENT was preached to a sinner as a means of attempting to prevent or reduce the sinners actions.

Maybe so, but there is in the WC.

Judgment was always preached as a deterrent to persuade the sinner to repent and turn to Christ for salvation.

Always? I think not.

No Biblically sound minister worth their salt tells a sinner that cleaning up their act PRIOR to salvation is the intention of the gospel,

The WC doesn't say that, no one here has said that, only you keep asserting this.

and yet that is the implication of the majority of the responses given here attempting to ascribe that very meaning to this WC statement. So either there is still an explicit contradiction, or the manner in which Calvinists are viewing this is a works-salvation.

Or maybe you are reading it wrongly.

 

[agedman]

What agedman has tried to do is make it appear that the WC is referring to preaching judgment as a deterrent that cause sinners to cease from ACTS of sin. There is not one place in the NT where JUDGMENT was preached to a sinner as a means of attempting to prevent or reduce the sinners actions. Judgment was always preached as a deterrent to persuade the sinner to repent and turn to Christ for salvation.

I never stated that sinners would CEASE from ACTS of sin. I stated they would be deterred (hindered). Again, I point to the illustration of the speeding and red light.

Do all speed at some point? most likely
Do they do so when they know the police are present? most likely NOT.

The believer is as the police in this world. We live by the strength of the Holy Spirit, and because of that the believer brings a certain level of rebuke to the world and a push back from the world and systems of the world. Without the Holy Spirit and believers' influence, the world would soon be as those who did whatever was right in their own eyes.

Just as every street worthy car has some sort of meter to give the driver an indication of how fast they are going over the speed limit, most dare not speed (sin) too much (in excess) because fear of possible rebuke lingers.

This is consistent with what this agedman has stated throughout this thread.

Also, I would like to address this sentence in your post, "Judgment was always preached as a deterrent to persuade the sinner to repent and turn to Christ for salvation."

Now on the surface that is arguably a correct sentence. However, Judgment is not always preached. Look at this selection from Acts (using the NIV):

14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: 15 “Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them. 16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17 Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.” 18 Even with these words, they had difficulty keeping the crowd from sacrificing to them.​

There is no "judgment" being preached.

And earlier when Paul preached:

38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. 40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

41 “‘Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.’”​

42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.​

Again, no judgment preached.

Note: Paul is quoting (the double indented part) from Habakah (if memory serves) and does not disturb the message of that prophet. But, just because "perish" is mentioned, is no license to state that Paul was preaching Judgment. He was preaching on justification.

So, I suppose your sentence although arguably one could "assert" that judgment was "implied" in the preaching of Paul, in fact judgment is NOT preached.

Why? Because the Jews (and Gentiles) know they are "condemned already."

That is part of the old nature and why every society has some kind of religion in which the god must be appeased through some act of sacrifice and offerings.

 

[agedman]

No Biblically sound minister worth their salt tells a sinner that cleaning up their act PRIOR to salvation is the intention of the gospel, and yet that is the implication of the majority of the responses given here attempting to ascribe that very meaning to this WC statement. So either there is still an explicit contradiction, or the manner in which Calvinists are viewing this is a works-salvation.

You will need to point to specific posts in which "a sinner that cleaning up their act PRIOR to salvation is the intention of the gospel," is even IMPLIED by agedman or anyone else that has posted on this thread.

Because that was NOT the "implication of the majority of the responses given here..." you are found to be embellishing, exaggerating, evangelistic-ally speaking, story telling, fibbing, or any other watered down word to replace being called a liar.

PLEASE don't let your zeal, to find something in which to save face in contending for the OP, drive you resort to this kind of tactic.



Perhaps you are confused about the work of the Holy Spirit in the living and lives of believers that hinders (deters) the evil of this world, but that is a long way from any post that would endorse what you stated here. Neither does such confusion warrant such an accusation.

Perhaps you just need to recant, apologize, and be willing to admit that perhaps there is middle ground that all can fellowship upon.

Why not start a thread with the first section of the WC and point out possible strengths and weaknesses of that section. Each subsequent thread would be upon the following section and every subsequent thread until a body of work has been accomplished upon the WC by the BB.

Stay away from label calling, and use Scriptures and Scriptural principle to bring solid foundation to build your view.

Let the BB discuss from Scriptures each item and then all would be edified.

I have no wish for you to become emotionally raw and distraught, but merely seek to help you gain insight. As another poster stated, "We may be closer than you think," on much and have little of substance in which to actually disagree.

 

[DrJamesAch]

There are things that one would have to ask to clarify the statement to understand the question the way I asked it. Section XXXIII, pIII refers to preaching judgment to deter all men from sin

1. Judgment FROM WHAT?
2. What SIN?

If judgment is preached about adultery, fornication, drunkenness, and the sinner quits all of those, but doesn't believe, is he saved?

Webster 1828 "Deter":

1. To discourage and stop by fear; to stop or prevent from acting or proceeding, by danger, difficulty or other consideration which disheartens, or countervails the motive for an act. We are often deterred from out duty by trivial difficulties. The state of the road or a cloudy sky may deter a man from undertaking a journey.
A million of frustrated hopes will not deter us from new experiments.
2. To prevent by prohibition or danger.

What danger is the sinner facing? Why is he facing it? And what does preaching judgment as a deterrent accomplish?

So thus the question I asked is accurate and fair. I could even take the "sin of belief" part out and the question still wouldn't get answered:

Can a sinner ordained to eternal damnation be deterred from sin that leads to eternal damnation.

What agedman has tried to do is make it appear that the WC is referring to preaching judgment as a deterrent that cause sinners to cease from ACTS of sin. There is not one place in the NT where JUDGMENT was preached to a sinner as a means of attempting to prevent or reduce the sinners actions. Judgment was always preached as a deterrent to persuade the sinner to repent and turn to Christ for salvation.

No Biblically sound minister worth their salt tells a sinner that cleaning up their act PRIOR to salvation is the intention of the gospel, and yet that is the implication of the majority of the responses given here attempting to ascribe that very meaning to this WC statement. So either there is still an explicit contradiction, or the manner in which Calvinists are viewing this is a works-salvation.

Why can't anyone just give a simple answer to the simple questions asked here?

I have to keep shortening my responses because nobody answers the question directly.

Can a sinner ordained to eternal damnation be deterred from sin that leads to eternal damnation

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

Of course not.

Eternal damnation.



Because he is an unregenerate, unrepentant sinner.

These 2 answers are what I was looking for and it proves my point in the OP about the intention of the author of section XXXIII of the WC. At least you admitted it, everyone else keeps dancing around it.

Might possibly cause some to not sin as heartily has they have been sinning.

And since when did Jesus say "Go ye into all the world and preach that men sin less 'heartily'"?

Your question makes no sense. Eternal damnation is the default setting for humans. They already on their way to Hell. Fear of eternal judgment could stop people from committing individual sins.

It makes all the sense in the world. I agree that eternal damnation is default based on on John 3:17-18. However, this is not the Calvinist view which goes beyond a "default" setting and says that some men are DETERMINED to hell. The statement I quoted from the WC on the "Decrees" says so in plain unambiguous language.

A person who is bound for hell by default can still be deterred IF HE'S NOT PREDESTINATED FOR HELL. A person that IS predetermined to hell CAN NOT BE DETERRED.

Fear of judgment was never preached in the Bible with the purpose of causing someone to sin less or with less severity. The WC paragraph in question is about the DAY of judgment, and that DAY is not about determining who sinned more or less or in greater severity, that DAY is an event that determines whether that sinner is SAVED or NOT SAVED, so this statement by the WC can not be reasonably interpreted to mean that the DAY of judgment is preached to deter all men from sinning less.

Always? I think not.

Scripture and verse.

The WC doesn't say that, no one here has said that, only you keep asserting this.

Just 2 answers ago you said it did.
And yes, agedman IS saying that even if he isn't being direct about it. The role of the church nor the Holy Spirit has never been to tell a man to fear judgment by cleaning up his act. Agedman continues to refer to the sinful ACTIONS of man instead of the sinful BELIEFS of man. A man can ACT righteous and still go to hell if He does not BELIEVE in Christ. Agedman has concluded that the preaching of judgment is intended by the WC to deter all men from sinS=actions, and that is clearly not what the WC says in art XXXIII sec III.

Or maybe you are reading it wrongly

III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin

There's no way to misread that. It's a blatant contradiction with the clauses I've shown on their view of free will and the decree that ordains a sinner to eternal damnation. Not only can a sinner foreordained to hell not be deterred, but a sinner can not be deterred to lessen his sins either. He can be slowed down, or even physically restrained, but sin begins in the heart and mind, and if a sinner is sinful by nature, then how can anyone say that an unregenerate sinner can be deterred from what is in his nature to do? Furthermore, Calvinists assume that based on Total Depravity/Inability, that the sinner can not understand or perceive the gospel. So then how can a sinner perceive judgment? If a dead man can't dial 911, a dead man can't understand eternal consequences either. Calvinists can't pick and choose what a dead man can and can not perceive.

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

I never stated that sinners would CEASE from ACTS of sin. I stated they would be deterred (hindered). Again, I point to the illustration of the speeding and red light.

Do all speed at some point? most likely
Do they do so when they know the police are present? most likely NOT.

You have admitted here that sin is in the heart. Just because a person does not stop at a light, does not mean you have deterred him from his thought of sin, what you have deterred him from doing is GETTING CAUGHT, you have NOT deterred his sin.

The believer is as the police in this world. We live by the strength of the Holy Spirit, and because of that the believer brings a certain level of rebuke to the world and a push back from the world and systems of the world. Without the Holy Spirit and believers' influence, the world would soon be as those who did whatever was right in their own eyes.

NOWHERE does the Bible say that believers are the 'police of the world'. Governments would be better off if there were Christians dictating government policy, but even some screwed that up (John Calvin-Geneva). The Bible says that Satan is the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4), and the church does not have any dominion over this earth whatsoever. That is pure Dominionism that is refuted all through the NT. The Jews said "we have no king but Caesar", and the apostles asked in Matthew 24:1-3, and Acts 1:6 if Jesus was going to NOW restore the kingdom, and what was His answer?

The role of the church is to go into all the world and preach the GOSPEL, not entangle themselves in the affairs of this world. 2 Tim 2:4. A Christian can be a police officer or a politician, but that is his EARTHLY job, that is not his CALLING or PURPOSE. There's not one single verse in the NT that tells the church to make the world a better place. Paul even says it will get worse:

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." 2 Tim 2:13

Just as every street worthy car has some sort of meter to give the driver an indication of how fast they are going over the speed limit, most dare not speed (sin) too much (in excess) because fear of possible rebuke lingers.

This is consistent with what this agedman has stated throughout this thread.

Why is "agedman" speaking in the third person?

Again, this analogy has nothing to do with preaching about the DAY of judgment to deter all men from sin. Preaching about the DAY OF JUDGMENT is to bring others to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, and thereby also prevent eternal damnation.

A sinner that is "dead in sin" as Calvinism holds he can not even "dial 911" will not be deterred from what is in his nature to do. Folly and sin is bound in the heart of the sinner from a child. Prov 22:15. The only thing that deters a man from sin is being transformed by the blood of Jesus Christ. To say that a man can be deterred from sin before he has met the Saviour is blasphemous.

Also, I would like to address this sentence in your post, "Judgment was always preached as a deterrent to persuade the sinner to repent and turn to Christ for salvation."

Now on the surface that is arguably a correct sentence. However, Judgment is not always preached. Look at this selection from Acts (using the NIV):

14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: 15 “Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them. 16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17 Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.” 18 Even with these words, they had difficulty keeping the crowd from sacrificing to them.​

There is no "judgment" being preached.

This is completely irrelevant. I did not say that Paul, the apostles, or Jesus ALWAYS PREACHED JUDGMENT, I said that WHEN THEY DID, it was ALWAYS toward bringing a sinner to Christ, not to prevent them from sinning.

Plus, Paul didn't really get a chance to finish his message since they stoned him half to death.

This is about the WC that DOES use the term preaching the day of judgment, so again, this quote is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with what I said.

This response also covers your quote of Acts 13 because you are using to prove a point about something that I never said.

The point about bringing up what the preaching of judgment was for was to show that WHEN it was preached, it was/is always used to deter men TO CHRIST, and FROM idolatry (1 Thess 1:10) which is putting anything and everything BEFORE God including ones lack of belief in God through Christ.

 

[Bro. James]

The existence of a law does not necessarily deter one from breaking the law. It is the successful enforcement of the law and prosecution thereof which deters. But our enforcement/punishment system is seriously dysfunctional. Our jails are overfilled--mostly drug related crimes.

Thou shalt not... is an interesting subject to study. Some of Israel was making a golden calf while Moses was receiving the Ten Commandments. The folk died in the wilderness. Moses never got to the promised land either, having disobeyed God. Is the promised land a type of heaven?

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[InTheLight]

III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin

There's no way to misread that. It's a blatant contradiction with the clauses I've shown on their view of free will and the decree that ordains a sinner to eternal damnation.

Ahh...I see. The problem is in your reading comprehension.