Major Contradiction in 1686 Westminster Confession

[DrJamesAch]

It is YOUR OP in which YOU misapplied what the WC was stating that I was responding, too.

The first response I gave, you didn't express the insight needed, so I brought more clarification.

That clarification seems to have upset you, but you continue to contend basing your defense upon your misapplication and therefore your defense is frail.

NOW, RIGHT NOW, IN THIS CURRENT AGE the heathen of this world are being "deterred" by the Holy Spirit through the church. The deterring will continue until the Lord comes.

THAT is the meaning of the WC as appropriately applicable in that part I quoted.

I have NEVER read on the BB where a cal or even a non-cal has tried to make this part of the WC an issue as you are attempting.

If you contend against the heathen being PREDETERMINED as condemned ALREADY, that is refuted in John 3 - you can argue with John about that.

If you contend that salvation is NOT by Grace through faith - alone - with NO help from man, that is refuted in Ephesians - you can argue with Paul about that.

If your scheme is to show some "free choice / will" exists, that is refuted in John 1 - then argue with John which CLEARLY shows such "schemes" are NOT valid.

It appears clear that you actually do not understand Calvinism completely which is why you are having a difficult time understanding this contradiction.

This is apparent by what you said that John 3 shows that sinners are "already under condemnation". That is not what Calvinism implies in the statement from the confession I posted. Being under condemnation as a FOREORDAINED PREMISE means that that sinner has no chance of EVER getting saved because God determined that the sinner goes to hell. Nothing you said refutes that point.

"III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death." Ch III, Confession

Therefore if a sinner is pretermined to hell, nothing can ever change that destiny because God's mind is made up, the elect are foreordained to eternal life, and the non elect are foreordained to eternal death, then your statement that the sinner is being deterred by the Holy Spirit through the church is wholly inaccurate. The Holy Spirit, nor the church, can deter anyone who is destined and determined and foreordained to eternal damnation.

So either you must agree the Calvinist system is WRONG, and that God did not foreordained some to be saved, and some to eternal death-and you would be correct Biblically if you agree with that-or you must admit that there is a contradiction in the Calvinist system as stated in this Confession. If you are a Reformer, then either you believe that God foreordained people to hell, or He did not which would make your belief in Calvinism inconsistent. But if you agree with the Reformers that God foreordained the sinner to hell, then you can NOT at the same time claim there is a possibility that a person foreordained to eternal damnation can be deterred from the eternal judgment that is the context of the Confession in ch XXXIII, sec III. It is an explicit contradiction on it's face and as applied.

I am not a Calvinist. This is not my contradiction to live with.

 

[agedman]

It appears clear that you actually do not understand Calvinism completely which is why you are having a difficult time understanding this contradiction.

That isn't the issue of the OP, nor is it Germain to the topic. We are not discussing what I understand, we are discussing what you misapply.

This is apparent by what you said that John 3 shows that sinners are "already under condemnation". That is not what Calvinism implies in the statement from the confession I posted. Being under condemnation as a FOREORDAINED PREMISE means that that sinner has no chance of EVER getting saved because God determined that the sinner goes to hell. Nothing you said refutes that point.

"III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death." Ch III, Confession

Did I even address this part of the WC? NO - I can in later posts, but YOU have to recant on that part I did post as you having misappropriated and misapplied it. Until you do, there is really nothing much to gain by attending to the rest - which can be done, iff you recant on the section I posted about.

Therefore if a sinner is pretermined to hell, nothing can ever change that destiny because God's mind is made up, the elect are foreordained to eternal life, and the non elect are foreordained to eternal death, then your statement that the sinner is being deterred by the Holy Spirit through the church is wholly inaccurate. The Holy Spirit, nor the church, can deter anyone who is destined and determined and foreordained to eternal damnation.

SEE, RIGHT HERE you get it wrong. YOU are applying what the responsible work of the Holy Spirit through the church in THIS AGE AND NOW in deterring sin and the work of evil and forcing it into determining eternal damnation.

THAT IS NOT the point of that part of the WC. YOU obviously haven't gotten that and until you do, there is little validity of the OP.

So either you must agree the Calvinist system is WRONG, and that God did not foreordained some to be saved, and some to eternal death-and you would be correct Biblically if you agree with that-or you must admit that there is a contradiction in the Calvinist system as stated in this Confession. If you are a Reformer, then either you believe that God foreordained people to hell, or He did not which would make your belief in Calvinism inconsistent. But if you agree with the Reformers that God foreordained the sinner to hell, then you can NOT at the same time claim there is a possibility that a person foreordained to eternal damnation can be deterred from the eternal judgment that is the context of the Confession in ch XXXIII, sec III. It is an explicit contradiction on it's face and as applied.

I am not a Calvinist. This is not my contradiction to live with.

I can deal with you about the rest, BUT you first must admit that you did not appropriate a proper part of the WC to your argument.

Are you ready to do so?

Do you in fact see now that the part I quoted you took out of context, misapplied it, and attempted some faulty argument/conclusion from that part of the WC?

If you do, then we can work on the next part.

 

[DrJamesAch]

That isn't the issue of the OP, nor is it Germain to the topic. We are not discussing what I understand, we are discussing what you misapply.





Did I even address this part of the WC? NO - I can in later posts, but YOU have to recant on that part I did post as you having misappropriated and misapplied it. Until you do, there is really nothing much to gain by attending to the rest - which can be done, iff you recant on the section I posted about.




SEE, RIGHT HERE you get it wrong. YOU are applying what the responsible work of the Holy Spirit through the church in THIS AGE AND NOW in deterring sin and the work of evil and forcing it into determining eternal damnation.

THAT IS NOT the point of that part of the WC. YOU obviously haven't gotten that and until you do, there is little validity of the OP.






I can deal with you about the rest, BUT you first must admit that you did not appropriate a proper part of the WC to your argument.

Are you ready to do so?

Do you in fact see now that the part I quoted you took out of context, misapplied it, and attempted some faulty argument/conclusion from that part of the WC?

If you do, then we can work on the next part.

You can't take what the intention is of the OP and claim that it should be based on how you understand it. I know exactly what the OP says-I WROTE IT. So it doesn't matter what you did or did not address from the WC, the WC is the entire crux of the OP. If you don't understand the WC, and don't understand how the Calvinist system applies here, then you are admitting that your entire debate is out of context and place.

I did not misapply the work of the Holy Spirit in "deterring" anyone. YOU DID in post 19 where you said "NOW, RIGHT NOW, IN THIS CURRENT AGE the heathen of this world are being "deterred" by the Holy Spirit through the church. The deterring will continue until the Lord comes." Your words, not mine. I simply restated what you implied, and showed you how it was erroneous, and then you attempt to restate it as if I was the author of that comment.

The WC makes it clear that eternal death means eternal damnation. That much is obvious. In ch XXXIII the phrasing is toward JUDGMENT:

"As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment..."

So what are the consequences of that "day of judgment" for the sinner? Eating stale Twinkies?? If you interpret that day of judgment anyway other than HELL for the sinner, and heaven for the saved, you have a serious issue with the ability to understand simple grammar, or you are just deliberately obfuscating the texts.

Calvinism states that sinners sin because it is their NATURE to sin. If someone does what is in their nature to do, and they are determined to do so, they can not be deterred from it. Calvinism holds that man has no free will. If he has no free will, then he has no will to be deterred from sin. But even that is not the bigger picture here which is that the WC stated that the fact of eternal JUDGMENT was used as a means to DETER ALL MEN from sin, and as such is a blatant contradiction to the statements in the WC regarding free will and eternal damnation that is foreordained to the sinner.

You are attempting to make some kind of reconciliation of the contradiction by adding a "time and place" argument. Either foreordained transcends time and place or it does not. If "foreordained" is LIMITED to what the Holy Spirit is doing "here and now" then you can not rightly call it foreordained which presents you with yet another contradiction.

If a person is FOREORDAINED TO ETERNAL JUDGMENT, then it makes no difference what the Holy Spirit is doing IN THIS AGE HERE AND NOW or whenever, because if the sinner is foreordained to eternal judgment, then that foreordained fact can not be altered regardless of time or place, and it still stands that there is an explicit contradiction in the WC statement of deterrence that conflicts with free will and foreordination of eternal damnation of the sinner.

 

[agedman]

Perhaps this passage from 2 Thessalonians will help:

5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.​

See here how the "lawless one" and by extension the heathen is restrained (deterred) until the Holy Spirit (he), and because of the indwelling nature of the Holy Spirit in believers, certainly the church is taken away (some disagree with the church being taken away - that is for another discussion).

The point is that Scriptures support this part of the WC in which I was posting in contention with you and shows that your statement of this section of the WC has no Scriptural validity.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Perhaps this passage from 2 Thessalonians will help:

5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.​

See here how the "lawless one" and by extension the heathen is restrained (deterred) until the Holy Spirit (he), and because of the indwelling nature of the Holy Spirit in believers, certainly the church is taken away (some disagree with the church being taken away - that is for another discussion).

The point is that Scriptures support this part of the WC in which I was posting in contention with you and shows that your statement of this section of the WC has no Scriptural validity.

What you are quoting has nothing to do with the WC using judgment as a deterrent. I believe in using judgment as a deterrent because Jesus and Paul both did: "knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men" 2 Cor 5:11; but of course, I am not a Calvinist so that view I hold on deterrence is not in conflict within my belief system. But it is with YOURS if you are a Calvinist, and that's the point you keep missing.

2 Thess 2 is about the restraint that is preventing the antichrist from being revealed "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time" v6. "Heathen by extension" is total eisegesis because that is NOT what this passage is about. The context is about believers who have been led to believe that the Day of the Lord had already came and went, and Paul is describing what would have happened if that were true, one of those events being the revealing and presence of the antichrist, and since that has not occurred, the believers can be relieved. This has nothing to do at all with the conflict that the WC has with the foreordination of sinners to eternal damnation, and the WC contradiction of using judgment as a deterrent toward a sinner that is predetermined to eternal damnation.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Get that! to "DETER ALL MEN FROM SIN". If man is totally unable to respond or perceive the gospel, then how can he be DETERRED? If man is predestined for hell and eternal punishment, then are not the Calvinist being disobedient against God's "eternal decree" in trying to convince a man against God's will to DETER him from sin?

If a man is foreordained to hell, then he can not be deterred.
This is a fatal flaw of logic within the Confession against its own system, and is to be expected when man dictates human reasoning above the Bible.

Wow, talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. There is no fatal flaw here, although there is some flawed reasoning on your part.

1. We do not know who is elect and who is not. So we are to preach the Gospel to all people.

2. The command of God to preach the Gospel to every creature certainly includes proclaiming the judgment of God. To not do so would be gross disobedience.

3. Men are deterred from evil by many things. Some are deterred by fear of being caught. Some are deterred by their natural conscience. Some are indeed deterred by fear of God's judgment, but that deterrence does not mean that they are saved. Many would never commit the sin of murder for fear of the consequences but that does not prevent them from hating another in their heart, which Jesus equated to murder.

 

[agedman]

What you are quoting has nothing to do with the WC using judgment as a deterrent. I believe in using judgment as a deterrent because Jesus and Paul both did: "knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men" 2 Cor 5:11; but of course, I am not a Calvinist so that view I hold on deterrence is not in conflict within my belief system. But it is with YOURS if you are a Calvinist, and that's the point you keep missing.

2 Thess 2 is about the restraint that is preventing the antichrist from being revealed "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time" v6. "Heathen by extension" is total eisegesis because that is NOT what this passage is about. The context is about believers who have been led to believe that the Day of the Lord had already came and went, and Paul is describing what would have happened if that were true, one of those events being the revealing and presence of the antichrist, and since that has not occurred, the believers can be relieved. This has nothing to do at all with the conflict that the WC has with the foreordination of sinners to eternal damnation, and the WC contradiction of using judgment as a deterrent toward a sinner that is predetermined to eternal damnation.

Again, you are bringing up the "supposed" contradiction of the WC, but I am centered solely upon that which I quoted.

You state, "I believe in using judgment as a deterrent because Jesus and Paul both did: "knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men" 2 Cor 5:11;..."

Do you disagree then that the work of the Holy Spirit and by extension through the church has been a deterrent of evil in which the tribulation age folks will rejoice over being rid of such restraint?

 

[agedman]

Assuming that you agree on the deterring work of the Holy Spirit and church that is continuing in this age, then it is important that I post the next part in which you use to contend against your view.

quote from WC 1689:

9. Free Will

God has indued the will of man, by nature, with liberty and the power to choose and to act upon his choice. This free will is neither forced, nor destined by any necessity of nature to do good or evil.

Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but he was unstable, so that he might fall from this condition.

Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability of will to perform any of the spiritual good which accompanies salvation. As a natural man, he is altogether averse to spiritual good, and dead in sin. He is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself for conversion.

When God converts a sinner, and translates him into a state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage to sin, and by grace alone He enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good. But because of his remaining corruptions he does not only (or perfectly) will that which is good, but also wills that which is evil.

The will of man will only be made perfectly and immutably free to will good alone in the state of glory.​

I am not certain anyone other than extreme non-cal (Pelegian- Universalist) would find great disagreement with this part of the WC.

Of course, the OP did not point this out, but attempted to extrapolate conflict were there was none.

Cal view is not impacted by this part of the WC, either.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Again, you are bringing up the "supposed" contradiction of the WC, but I am centered solely upon that which I quoted.

You state, "I believe in using judgment as a deterrent because Jesus and Paul both did: "knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men" 2 Cor 5:11;..."

Do you disagree then that the work of the Holy Spirit and by extension through the church has been a deterrent of evil in which the tribulation age folks will rejoice over being rid of such restraint?

Again, I am disagreeing with the CALVINIST POSITION, NOT MY OWN BELIEF. And again, you are taking 2 Thessalonains 2 completely out of context. If the restraint in 2 Thess is about removing the presence, power, and influence of sin, why do you think it's called TRIBULATION?

This is not about a deterrent of EVIL ACTIONS. The debate is about JUDGMENT FOR BEING A SINNER. Do you understand the difference? ACTIONS..JUDGMENT...ACTIONS....JUDGMENT...ACTIONS...JUDGMENT the 2 are not the same. You are continuing to argue for the deterrence of evil ACTS, but that is not what this is about. It is about using judgment as a deterrent to convince the sinner to avoid eternal judgment.

Your argument is saying that the church's mission is to restrain evil acts. Cessation from evil acts is not what gets one saved, unless you believe in a works salvation. Using judgment as a deterrent is not saying "hey sinner, quit sinning, it's evil". That's your argument. Preaching judgment as a deterrent is saying "Hey sinner, if you don't trust Christ as your Saviour, you are going to spend an eternity in hell".

However, this CAN NOT be a deterrent to someone who is foreordained to eternal damnation.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Wow, talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. There is no fatal flaw here, although there is some flawed reasoning on your part.

1. We do not know who is elect and who is not. So we are to preach the Gospel to all people.

2. The command of God to preach the Gospel to every creature certainly includes proclaiming the judgment of God. To not do so would be gross disobedience.

3. Men are deterred from evil by many things. Some are deterred by fear of being caught. Some are deterred by their natural conscience. Some are indeed deterred by fear of God's judgment, but that deterrence does not mean that they are saved. Many would never commit the sin of murder for fear of the consequences but that does not prevent them from hating another in their heart, which Jesus equated to murder.

Again, just like agedman, you are interpreting deterrent as a deterrent from evil ACTS, and since this argument is being repeated to avoid the contradiction, it is clear that it is a deliberate obfuscation of the contradiction.

The preaching of judgment as a deterrent has nothing to do with convincing men of their evil deeds, nor preventing them from committing such. To argue for either the former or latter is a misreading of the WC. Preaching judgment as a deterrent emphasizes the CONSEQUENCES of remaining lost, and it can only be a deterrent if a sinner has the FREE WILL to CHOOSE between living in disobedience to the gospel or choosing Christ.

If a sinner is foreordained to eternal damnation, he CAN NOT BE DETERRED just because you preach to him the gospel, and yet the WC claims that the preaching of judgment is used to DETER ALL MEN FROM SIN". Not SINS, why would a sinner care if you are preaching that he will be judged for adultery or murder? What are the consequences for that?

The WC makes it clear that the sin being referred to is the sin of perishing without Christ, that is the only consequence that is addressed at the DAY OF JUDGMENT. As such, the WC in stating that preaching of such judgment to DETER ALL MEN FROM SIN is an explicit contradiction to the other 2 statements regarding free will and foreordained eternal damnation of the sinner. No way around that.

 

[RIPP0NWV]

Again, I am disagreeing with the CALVINIST POSITION, NOT MY OWN BELIEF. And again, you are taking 2 Thessalonains 2 completely out of context. If the restraint in 2 Thess is about removing the presence, power, and influence of sin, why do you think it's called TRIBULATION?

This is not about a deterrent of EVIL ACTIONS. The debate is about JUDGMENT FOR BEING A SINNER. Do you understand the difference? ACTIONS..JUDGMENT...ACTIONS....JUDGMENT...ACTIONS...JUDGMENT the 2 are not the same. You are continuing to argue for the deterrence of evil ACTS, but that is not what this is about. It is about using judgment as a deterrent to convince the sinner to avoid eternal judgment.

Your argument is saying that the church's mission is to restrain evil acts. Cessation from evil acts is not what gets one saved, unless you believe in a works salvation. Using judgment as a deterrent is not saying "hey sinner, quit sinning, it's evil". That's your argument. Preaching judgment as a deterrent is saying "Hey sinner, if you don't trust Christ as your Saviour, you are going to spend an eternity in hell".

However, this CAN NOT be a deterrent to someone who is foreordained to eternal damnation.

After having read several of your posts, one cannot help but wonder what your major in seminary was. Also, you seem very hung up on Calvinism, although you claim to disagree with it. If you have not noticed, every post of yours with few exceptions uses the name Calvin or Calvinism. What fascinates you about this system of belief? Is not the Bible with the illumination of the Holy Spirit sufficient?

In case you have forgotten, this world is evil, from the time sin entered. It infected everything, not just human beings. If not for the presence of the Holy Spirit in a Christians life, evil would be rampant. It is possible, although not conclusive, that the departing of the Holy Spirit could bring about the Tribulation.

It is the church's mission, on this earth, to tell others the Good News, and do the work of the Lord. The Holy Spirit is the active agent in restraining evil. Remember Christ said when He was here, that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. He did not mean in our own power. While the church and the Holy Spirit work together, the fact remains that without the Holy Spirit, the church could do nothing for the Lord.

As a final point, I wanted to ask, do you think you actually have a good grasp of the five points of TULIP. You repeatedly stress the point of being ordained for hell. Within the five points, that is not what is meant.

 

[agedman]

This next section is possibly the most unpalatable of all sections for most non-cals.

It states:

"3. God's Decree

God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass.

- Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature , nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

- In all this God's wisdom is displayed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.

Although God knows everything which may or can come to pass under all imaginable conditions, yet He has not decreed anything because He foresaw it in the future, or because it would come to pass under certain conditions.

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of His glorious grace. Others are left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.

Those angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and the number of them is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

Those of mankind who are predestinated to life, God chose before the foundation of the world was laid, in accordance with His eternal and immutable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will. God chose them in Christ for everlasting glory, solely out of His free grace and love, without anything in the creature as a condition or cause moving Him to choose.

As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so, by the eternal and completely free intention of His will, He has foreordained all the means. Accordingly, those who are elected, being fallen in Adam:

- are redeemed by Christ,

- are effectually called to faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season,

- are justified, adopted, sanctified,

- and are kept by His power through faith unto salvation;

- neither are any but the elect redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved.

The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, in order that men who are heeding the will of God revealed in His Word, and who are yielding obedience to it, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation be assured of their eternal election.

So shall this doctrine provide cause for praise, reverence, admiration of God, and also provide cause for humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all who sincerely obey the Gospel."​

Perhaps those that would contend against the cal. view have argued on the BB more over the matters that this part contains than any other. The absolute sovereignty of God is not in question, it is how that sovereignty is held and to what degree that sovereignty has control over every aspect of the universe.

Because such argument(s) seem part and parcel of the BB, I do not expect to provide a defense one way or another.

What does matter is that the OP has been shown as holding a view that is not valid or applicable to the WC.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Assuming that you agree on the deterring work of the Holy Spirit and church that is continuing in this age, then it is important that I post the next part in which you use to contend against your view.

quote from WC 1689:

9. Free Will

God has indued the will of man, by nature, with liberty and the power to choose and to act upon his choice. This free will is neither forced, nor destined by any necessity of nature to do good or evil.

Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but he was unstable, so that he might fall from this condition.

Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability of will to perform any of the spiritual good which accompanies salvation. As a natural man, he is altogether averse to spiritual good, and dead in sin. He is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself for conversion.

When God converts a sinner, and translates him into a state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage to sin, and by grace alone He enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good. But because of his remaining corruptions he does not only (or perfectly) will that which is good, but also wills that which is evil.

The will of man will only be made perfectly and immutably free to will good alone in the state of glory.​

I am not certain anyone other than extreme non-cal (Pelegian- Universalist) would find great disagreement with this part of the WC.

Of course, the OP did not point this out, but attempted to extrapolate conflict were there was none.

Cal view is not impacted by this part of the WC, either.

You are misinterpreting the role of the Holy Spirit here in order to foist your argument against the obvious contradiction in the WC.

The job of the Holy Spirit is not to PREVENT SIN. If that were the case, the fact that the world lives in a perpetual state of evil would prove you have a very weak God and perish the thought of such a notion.

The role of the Holy Spirit is described in John 16:8-10.

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;

The sin is the sin of unbelief in Him. Your view that the role of the Holy Spirit is to prevent sin is a gross misunderstanding of the nature of the Spirit.

Notice that your own view of the "Free Will" clause states that by grace man is regenerated. Notice what it does NOT say: it does not say men are saved BECAUSE THEY WERE DETERRED AS A RESULT OF HEARING ABOUT JUDGMENT.

The free will clause even states that man sins because it is in his nature to do so. He is predisposed to it. As such, your argument that he can be deterred from even his own evil acts is erroneous, so your argument fails on both the evil acts and the judgment aspect of the OP.

 

[Mexdeaf]

If a sinner is foreordained to eternal damnation, he CAN NOT BE DETERRED just because you preach to him the gospel, and yet the WC claims that the preaching of judgment is used to DETER ALL MEN FROM SIN". Not SINS, why would a sinner care if you are preaching that he will be judged for adultery or murder? What are the consequences for that?

The WC makes it clear that the sin being referred to is the sin of perishing without Christ, that is the only consequence that is addressed at the DAY OF JUDGMENT. As such, the WC in stating that preaching of such judgment to DETER ALL MEN FROM SIN is an explicit contradiction to the other 2 statements regarding free will and foreordained eternal damnation of the sinner. No way around that.

The obfuscation is in your own mind. I'll just leave it at that because you won't admit you might be wrong regardless.

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

After having read several of your posts, one cannot help but wonder what your major in seminary was. Also, you seem very hung up on Calvinism, although you claim to disagree with it. If you have not noticed, every post of yours with few exceptions uses the name Calvin or Calvinism. What fascinates you about this system of belief? Is not the Bible with the illumination of the Holy Spirit sufficient?

In case you have forgotten, this world is evil, from the time sin entered. It infected everything, not just human beings. If not for the presence of the Holy Spirit in a Christians life, evil would be rampant. It is possible, although not conclusive, that the departing of the Holy Spirit could bring about the Tribulation.

It is the church's mission, on this earth, to tell others the Good News, and do the work of the Lord. The Holy Spirit is the active agent in restraining evil. Remember Christ said when He was here, that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. He did not mean in our own power. While the church and the Holy Spirit work together, the fact remains that without the Holy Spirit, the church could do nothing for the Lord.

Scripture and verse that the role of the Holy Spirit is to restrain evil in the world. John 16 and several other passages show that the Holy Spirit CONVICTS of matters of sin, not PREVENT them.

Your reliance on Matthew 16:18 that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church has nothing at all to do with even your own argument. That does not hold that evil will not be present in the world but that Satan would not be able to prevent the church from being God's minister on earth, and that Satan can not take any believer out of Christs hand. It says not one iota of the church or the Holy Spirit preventing evil.

As a final point, I wanted to ask, do you think you actually have a good grasp of the five points of TULIP. You repeatedly stress the point of being ordained for hell. Within the five points, that is not what is meant.

In ch III of Eternal Decrees the Confession reads,

"III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."

Not only did John Calvin himself believe this, but this is a REFORMED DOCUMENT. I chose the WC because so many Calvinists attempt to separate themselves from John Calvin, and maintain that their beliefs are stated by the Confessions, and not necessarily those explicated in Calvin's Institutes.

"FOREORDAINED TO EVERLASTING DEATH" in contrast with "some men and angels" being predestinated to everlasting life is a pretty clear and unambiguous declaration that this is EXACTLY what Calvinism holds: that unbelievers are ordained to hell.

 

[RIPP0NWV]

Scripture and verse that the role of the Holy Spirit is to restrain evil in the world. John 16 and several other passages show that the Holy Spirit CONVICTS of matters of sin, not PREVENT them.

Your reliance on Matthew 16:18 that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church has nothing at all to do with even your own argument. That does not hold that evil will not be present in the world but that Satan would not be able to prevent the church from being God's minister on earth, and that Satan can not take any believer out of Christs hand. It says not one iota of the church or the Holy Spirit preventing evil.

In ch III of Eternal Decrees the Confession reads,

"III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."

Not only did John Calvin himself believe this, but this is a REFORMED DOCUMENT. I chose the WC because so many Calvinists attempt to separate themselves from John Calvin, and maintain that their beliefs are stated by the Confessions, and not necessarily those explicated in Calvin's Institutes.

"FOREORDAINED TO EVERLASTING DEATH" in contrast with "some men and angels" being predestinated to everlasting life is a pretty clear and unambiguous declaration that this is EXACTLY what Calvinism holds: that unbelievers are ordained to hell.

It was made clear in my post that only the power of the Holy Spirit restrains evil. The Holy Spirit resides in each Christian. A collection of Christians make up the local church. All local churchs with saved people make up the Kingdom of God. They do not prevent evil, but they do restrain evil. Think about what the world would be like without the Holy Spirit and the local NT churches around the world.

Within the individual Christian, the presence of the Holy Spirit guarantees that the person is a Christian. He has a new nature. He is not committing sins he otherwise would have if he had never been saved. On top of that, the Christian affects those around him, either to Christ and salvation, or maybe, if not that, second thoughts about doing what is wrong. This world is a better place because Christ left us with the Holy Spirit.

As far as Chapter 3 of Eternal Decrees and Confessions, I do not read or rely on them for an understanding of the Lord.

We may be closer on this issue than you think. My point is, that without the Holy Spirit, we would be in a fix. John 16 says:

5 "Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you."

And in 2 Cor 2:

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]
But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[agedman]

Again, just like agedman, you are interpreting deterrent as a deterrent from evil ACTS, and since this argument is being repeated to avoid the contradiction, it is clear that it is a deliberate obfuscation of the contradiction.

No obfuscation of the contradiction deliberate or otherwise or avoidance of the topic is being used.

Evil ACT(S) come from evil hearts. And if evil acts are deterred, then the evil in ones heart being deterred is at the root - one cannot have one without the other.

The work of the Holy Spirit and by extension the believers deter the evil of the heart and acts from running a muck throughout the world. That this work is being done now as in the past does not prevent nor continue in the same manner after the revealing of the "man of sin."

The preaching of judgment as a deterrent has nothing to do with convincing men of their evil deeds, nor preventing them from committing such. To argue for either the former or latter is a misreading of the WC. Preaching judgment as a deterrent emphasizes the CONSEQUENCES of remaining lost, and it can only be a deterrent if a sinner has the FREE WILL to CHOOSE between living in disobedience to the gospel or choosing Christ.

This part of your post is not well thought out. Historically, many who fear judgment have been deterred from evil. Historically, many who fear judgment have struggled even within their own heart over thoughts of evil. For you to state, "The preaching of judgment as a deterrent ... nor preventing them from committing such" is just not an accurate statement.

This section of the WC (in which I initially quoted) has to do with the general warning of the judgment and justice of God to the people of God and as the believers have the Holy Spirit within are by new creature nature a rebuke (deter) to heathen of sin, righteousness and judgment. How many have said, "I will go to hell for ..." knowing the terror awaits them and caring not, and yet some heathen do care and seek human justice.

It has NOTHING to do with "free will" free choice or whatever "freedom" is the currant rave. Men are "condemned already" and have no freedom of choice or will outside of Christ. (both non-cals and cals have variants of this statement)

If a sinner is foreordained to eternal damnation, he CAN NOT BE DETERRED just because you preach to him the gospel, and yet the WC claims that the preaching of judgment is used to DETER ALL MEN FROM SIN". Not SINS, why would a sinner care if you are preaching that he will be judged for adultery or murder? What are the consequences for that?

Some do, some don't.

The more wicked the heart, the less likely the person will care for anyone or anything - even them self (psychopathic person).

The WC makes it clear that the sin being referred to is the sin of perishing without Christ, that is the only consequence that is addressed at the DAY OF JUDGMENT. As such, the WC in stating that preaching of such judgment to DETER ALL MEN FROM SIN is an explicit contradiction to the other 2 statements regarding free will and foreordained eternal damnation of the sinner. No way around that.

You need to reread the "free will" and "God's decree" section of the WC. It does not conform to what you are presenting it as stating. But then, because you are not Calvinistic in thinking, the "God's decree" section would be held in somewhat of contempt as it has numerous times on the BB.

BTW, though not in the WC, there is another consequence of the final judgment: ALL knees shall bow and proclaim Jesus as Lord. (Romans, Philippians, Isaiah). Until the final judgment this proclamation in Scripture remains unfulfilled.

It might be of interest to you for your view of the WC to understand that the framers of the WC were not tribulation and millennial thinkers as we might consider but were more a-mill thinking. They had not the knowledge nor understanding of the destructive properties of modern warfare, satellites, internet, ...

So, the last judgment is not proceeded by a tribulation age nor a millennial reign of Christ in the WC. That may account for a bit of error in your thinking.

There are many variations on this theme and some on the BB are a-mil. I am not.

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

It was made clear in my post that only the power of the Holy Spirit restrains evil. The Holy Spirit resides in each Christian. A collection of Christians make up the local church. All local churchs with saved people make up the Kingdom of God. They do not prevent evil, but they do restrain evil. Think about what the world would be like without the Holy Spirit and the local NT churches around the world.

And what? Pointing to your own post is the authority for answering my question about providing Scripture and verse to support your position?

Again, Scripture and verse that shows that the church even "restrains" evil. Paul says that in the latter days evil doers shall wax WORSE AND WORSE. 2 Timothy 3:13

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."

That hardly supports your view that the church "restrains" evil, considering that it will get WORSE, not "restrained" or better.

Within the individual Christian, the presence of the Holy Spirit guarantees that the person is a Christian. He has a new nature. He is not committing sins he otherwise would have if he had never been saved. On top of that, the Christian affects those around him, either to Christ and salvation, or maybe, if not that, second thoughts about doing what is wrong. This world is a better place because Christ left us with the Holy Spirit.

The world is NOT a better place just because the church is present. Even unbelievers do good. Matt 7:11. Has the church been and should it be a positiive influence? Of course it has, but that is irrelevant to the point of the OP and is not the PURPOSE of the church or the Holy Spirit. You are confusing the RESULTS of a positive presence with the PURPOSE of the church and the Holy Spirit.

As far as Chapter 3 of Eternal Decrees and Confessions, I do not read or rely on them for an understanding of the Lord.

Then your debate on this issue is sort of non sequitur because I am not addressing Calvinism as a whole, per se, here, but how it is presented in the WC, and the contradiction that is presented in it as explained in the OP and subsequent comments. If you do not claim that this particular confession correctly states what YOU believe, then it is pointless to make a defense against the OP, because offering a defense against it would only prove that it DOES apply because you "barked".

Nevertheless, one identifies themselves as a Calvinist either by relying on John Calvin's own explication of grace, election, predestination, foreknowledge etc.. or they rely on the definitions of TULIP and other statements as defined by either the Westminster, Philadelphia, Belgium Confessions et al. There is no defining Calvinism outside of the historical and traditional definitions and creeds that were set forth by either John Calvin himself or the Reformers that authored those creeds. As such, I would argue that the OP generally applies to all who claim to be Calvinists, if you choose to hold to some form of Calvinism that is not defined by any of the above, that's your prerogative, but I digress that such is possible for one to hold and claim to be a consistent Calvinist.

We may be closer on this issue than you think. My point is, that without the Holy Spirit, we would be in a fix. John 16 says:

5 "Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you."

And in 2 Cor 2:

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]
But we have the mind of Christ.

While these verses demonstrate the efficacy of the Holy Spirit within the individual believer and the church as a whole, it does not refute the explanation I offered as to the purpose of the Holy Spirit which is clear in John 16:8-10 which is not intended to either prevent or even restrain sin. But regardless of whether even both were intended is still not the issue. The issue was that the WC contending the the preaching of judgment is a deterrent for ALL MEN is wholly inconsistent with the WC statement of eternal death and free will, and as such is still an explicit contradiction.

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

No obfuscation of the contradiction deliberate or otherwise or avoidance of the topic is being used.

Evil ACT(S) come from evil hearts. And if evil acts are deterred, then the evil in ones heart being deterred is at the root - one cannot have one without the other.

The work of the Holy Spirit and by extension the believers deter the evil of the heart and acts from running a muck throughout the world. That this work is being done now as in the past does not prevent nor continue in the same manner after the revealing of the "man of sin."

You are STILL missing the point. This not about deterring evil ACTIONS. It is about deterring man from a decision to remain IN SIN by rejecting Jesus Christ as the DELIVER from the PENALTY of sin, not the PRESENCE of sin. It is the latter that you are arguing for and that's not what the WC is contending about.

The Bible never tells a believer to preach the gospel in order to assist the sinner in foreboding from evil acts. Judgment as a deterrent is to convince the sinner that living IN UNBELIEF is the sin that condemns him to eternal punishment.

Yes, it is an evil heart that produces evil actions, but the fact that an evil heart is FOREORDAINED TO BE EVIL according to the WC and therefore FOREORDAINED TO HELL still serves to prove that there is a contradiction in the WC if it is believed that a sinner can be deterred from such JUDGMENT by having the consequences of his rejection and rebellion explained to him. If a person is foreordained to eternal damnation, nothing that is said about his evil heart or evil actions will deter him from his destiny because being foreordained to eternal damnation DEMANDS THAT HE CAN NOT BE DETERRED.

This part of your post is not well thought out. Historically, many who fear judgment have been deterred from evil. Historically, many who fear judgment have struggled even within their own heart over thoughts of evil. For you to state, "The preaching of judgment as a deterrent ... nor preventing them from committing such" is just not an accurate statement.

Again you are still making the argument for being deterred from evil actions and that is NOT what the WC nor my OP is referring to , and you can't make the discussion revolved around that no matter how hard you try. It is you that is not thinking through what I posted because you continue to misstate the point even though I have thoroughly explained it repeatedly.

This section of the WC (in which I initially quoted) has to do with the general warning of the judgment and justice of God to the people of God and as the believers have the Holy Spirit within are by new creature nature a rebuke (deter) to heathen of sin, righteousness and judgment. How many have said, "I will go to hell for ..." knowing the terror awaits them and caring not, and yet some heathen do care and seek human justice.

Again, it doesn't matter what YOU QUOTED. You can not change the premise of the OP by attempting to divert it into an entirely different argument, and then make the OP about agreeing with your argument. That is a classic Red Herring type of distraction to the premise that's not gonna fly in the thread.

And again, you keep arguing that the WC is about deterring men from SINNING by focusing on the actions they commit and that is not the SIN that is being referred to. We were not called to preach clean living, we were called to preach that sinners need to REPENT by turning from the sin of idolatry of self righteousness and UNBELIEF and turn to Christ.

You keep writing as if the purpose of the church and this statement in the WC means that the church's purpose is to teach men how to live good lives instead of demanding repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. You are focusing on their WORKS instead of their BELIEFS, and preaching judgment as a deterrent is an appeal to BELIEFS not ACTIONS, and as such you have presented not only an gross interpretation of the WC, but a serious flaw in your own explication of the purpose of the church and the Holy Spirit.

You need to reread the "free will" and "God's decree" section of the WC. It does not conform to what you are presenting it as stating. But then, because you are not Calvinistic in thinking, the "God's decree" section would be held in somewhat of contempt as it has numerous times on the BB.

BTW, though not in the WC, there is another consequence of the final judgment: ALL knees shall bow and proclaim Jesus as Lord. (Romans, Philippians, Isaiah). Until the final judgment this proclamation in Scripture remains unfulfilled.

It might be of interest to you for your view of the WC to understand that the framers of the WC were not tribulation and millennial thinkers as we might consider but were more a-mill thinking. They had not the knowledge nor understanding of the destructive properties of modern warfare, satellites, internet, ...

So, the last judgment is not proceeded by a tribulation age nor a millennial reign of Christ in the WC. That may account for a bit of error in your thinking.

There are many variations on this theme and some on the BB are a-mil. I am not.

It is clear that you don't understand the argument, so let's make this really simple with just a question:

Can a sinner that is foreordained to eternal death be deterred from the sin of unbelief that will eternally condemn him?

If you can't answer that question then you can't give an honest answer to this debate.

 

[agedman]

... edited out for space sake ....

While these verses demonstrate the efficacy of the Holy Spirit within the individual believer and the church as a whole, it does not refute the explanation I offered as to the purpose of the Holy Spirit which is clear in John 16:8-10 which is not intended to either prevent or even restrain sin. But regardless of whether even both were intended is still not the issue. The issue was that the WC contending the the preaching of judgment is a deterrent for ALL MEN is wholly inconsistent with the WC statement of eternal death and free will, and as such is still an explicit contradiction.

But that IS the issue of part of the posts, and it is good to see you finally admit that work is part of the living of a believer.

But to the latter part of the paragraph of your post:

Deterrent does not even come close to equating to salvation. (see red light speed sign illustration)

The last section of the WC has everything to do with justice and judgment, and the eternity of heathen, believers and angels.

The last statement of the last section is an affirmation that believers should not be overwhelmed, weary, ... but assured that in the final accounting there is a great day for which to look forward with anticipation, and some dread - for who wants all their live and living displayed for all to see?


You desire it to be in contrast to other sections of the WC, which it is not, and your attempt to make it seem as though has failed.

However, you can't accept (though in this post you admit it could be true) is that the believers through the work of the Holy Spirit are a hindrance to the work of the evil one(s) and will be until that man of sin is revealed.

As such, there is NO conflict and no contradiction as you supposed in the OP.