Making History (and Having Nobody Notice)

[humblethinker]

“One of the most amazing events in the history of the United States”:

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2013/03/making-history-and-having-nobody-notice/

Are fundamentalists completely marginalized in our society? Are they NOT to blame or is the blame to be placed on others? Do fundamentalists have a plan to address their marginalization? One of the commenters on a blog said, "They're not making history, they are history."

 

[John of Japan]

My grandfather was a fundamentalist evangelist and saw 100,000 come to Christ. He taught me so much and meant so much to me. And Grandma lived the meaning of unconditional love. My father was a fundamentalist pastor and saw many come to Christ. I have his NT from when he pastored for 5 years in CO, with hash marks for 82 won to Christ. My fundamentalist mother won me to Christ. I thank God so much for my fundamentalist parents.

I was educated in 3 fundamentalist colleges by some wonderful, godly fundamentalist teachers, some of them still friends, including a nationally known Hebrew scholar. I married a wonderful fundamentalist girl, who was also educated in a fundamentalist college and is to this day my best friend. We had one child, a fundamentalist scholar who just finished his PhD dissertation on NT Greek linguistics. He loves God and serves God in his fundamentalist church.

I became a missionary through a fundamentalist mission board, mentored by the evangelist director and his successor. I am supported by 48 fundamentalist churches, which quietly go their way trying to reach the world for Christ without making a media fuss. Many of the pastors are good friends. (There are over 4000 fundamentalist missionaries like me around the world, almost all of them striving to win souls and plant churches.) I often thank God for the privilege of serving Him as a missionary.

There are 19 fundamentalist missionaries and Japanese pastors on our island, and twice a year we get together for some wonderful fundamentalist fellowship. They all are quietly seeking to win the island for Christ without making much of a fuss at it.

Tomorrow I'll go to the church and prepare my sermon, then about five I'll visit a drug pusher (probably an addict too) who is interested in the Lord because his former yakuza (Japanese mafia) boss got saved through our ministry. I'll try to win him to Christ. Then on Sunday I'll preach in my tiny Japanese fundamentalist church, happy to be serving Christ.

So, will I worry about those people in the website you linked to, who like to mock and make fun of fundamentalists? Naw. I'll just remember that Paul said: "And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day" (1 Cor. 4:12-13). You can't serve God faithfully without being mocked and defamed. But God knows those who are His.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Amen John....Amen!

My grandfather was a fundamentalist evangelist and saw 100,000 come to Christ. He taught me so much and meant so much to me. And Grandma lived the meaning of unconditional love. My father was a fundamentalist pastor and saw many come to Christ. I have his NT from when he pastored for 5 years in CO, with hash marks for 82 won to Christ. My fundamentalist mother won me to Christ. I thank God so much for my fundamentalist parents.

I was educated in 3 fundamentalist colleges by some wonderful, godly fundamentalist teachers, some of them still friends, including a nationally known Hebrew scholar. I married a wonderful fundamentalist girl, who was also educated in a fundamentalist college and is to this day my best friend. We had one child, a fundamentalist scholar who just finished his PhD dissertation on NT Greek linguistics. He loves God and serves God in his fundamentalist church.

I became a missionary through a fundamentalist mission board, mentored by the evangelist director and his successor. I am supported by 48 fundamentalist churches, which quietly go their way trying to reach the world for Christ without making a media fuss. Many of the pastors are good friends. (There are over 4000 fundamentalist missionaries like me around the world, almost all of them striving to win souls and plant churches.) I often thank God for the privilege of serving Him as a missionary.

There are 19 fundamentalist missionaries and Japanese pastors on our island, and twice a year we get together for some wonderful fundamentalist fellowship. They all are quietly seeking to win the island for Christ without making much of a fuss at it.

Tomorrow I'll go to the church and prepare my sermon, then about five I'll visit a drug pusher (probably an addict too) who is interested in the Lord because his former yakuza (Japanese mafia) boss got saved through our ministry. I'll try to win him to Christ. Then on Sunday I'll preach in my tiny Japanese fundamentalist church, happy to be serving Christ.

So, will I worry about those people in the website you linked to, who like to mock and make fun of fundamentalists? Naw. I'll just remember that Paul said: "And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day" (1 Cor. 4:12-13). You can't serve God faithfully without being mocked and defamed. But God knows those who are His.

One Verse....1 Peter 2:15 "For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:"....

Amen Bro.John:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[John of Japan]

One Verse....1 Peter 2:15 "For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:"....

Amen Bro.John:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Bro.Greg:saint:

I followed the link to the website. There is a video of a bunch of fundamentalist pastors who gave Bibles to politicians after going through all the proper channels. That's good, right, giving Bibles to politicians? They need them, right?

Then there were a bunch of people mocking the fundamentalists because one guy used hyperbole. In fact, the whole purpose of the website appears to be mocking fundamentalists. I'd hate to be that guy standing before the Judgement Seat of Christ. "What did I do for you, Lord? Oh, I had this great website that I used to mock Christians. What? Oh, of course no one got saved or grew as a Christian through it." Christ: "No rewards there. Next."

And then the OP says, "Do fundamentalists have a plan to address their marginalization?" What, I'm supposed to be concerned about a bunch of mockers? If we are marginalized on earth, what does that have to do with heavenly reality?

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

The Choice We Need To Make...

I followed the link to the website. There is a video of a bunch of fundamentalist pastors who gave Bibles to politicians after going through all the proper channels. That's good, right, giving Bibles to politicians? They need them, right?

Then there were a bunch of people mocking the fundamentalists because one guy used hyperbole. In fact, the whole purpose of the website appears to be mocking fundamentalists. I'd hate to be that guy standing before the Judgement Seat of Christ. "What did I do for you, Lord? Oh, I had this great website that I used to mock Christians. What? Oh, of course no one got saved or grew as a Christian through it." Christ: "No rewards there. Next."

And then the OP says, "Do fundamentalists have a plan to address their marginalization?" What, I'm supposed to be concerned about a bunch of mockers? If we are marginalized on earth, what does that have to do with heavenly reality?

I'd FAR RATHER be cursed and "marginalized" by the world and the liberal church for the stand I take here for Christ and His Word and be pleasing to my God than enjoy the empty congratulations and praise that compromising the truth would earn me here. The time we spend here won't even be a wink of God's eye in light of the time we'll spend in eternity.....not even a WINK. I "fear" that my rewards will be little enough as it is.:tear: By the way...I looked at that site too....and it is carnal trash...in my opinion.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Then there were a bunch of people mocking the fundamentalists because one guy used hyperbole. In fact, the whole purpose of the website appears to be mocking fundamentalists. I'd hate to be that guy standing before the Judgement Seat of Christ. "What did I do for you, Lord? Oh, I had this great website that I used to mock Christians. What? Oh, of course no one got saved or grew as a Christian through it." Christ: "No rewards there. Next."

:applause::applause: This Website disgusts me. I've perused it before. The creator of this website literally warms himself/herself to stories of failures by IFB's. If there's an obscure Baptist Pastor somewhere who falls prey to sin....they'll find out about it and revel in it for days. It's truly sickenning.

Of course, they tout themselves as concerned Christians blah blah

 

[Zenas]

What these pastors were doing is commendable--and needed--but hardly newsworthy. Senators and congressmen meet with special interest groups from their district every day, sometimes many groups in the same day. I would also suggest that those people on the hill who are interested in reading the Bible already have their own copy. Those who don't care will not open the bible they are given and read it. These bibles will gather dust on the shelves of congressional offices.

 

[John of Japan]

What these pastors were doing is commendable--and needed--but hardly newsworthy. Senators and congressmen meet with special interest groups from their district every day, sometimes many groups in the same day. I would also suggest that those people on the hill who are interested in reading the Bible already have their own copy. Those who don't care will not open the bible they are given and read it. These bibles will gather dust on the shelves of congressional offices.

Newsworthy in a secular way? No. But, how do you know that the Bibles will do no good? Maybe a congressman will have a bad day and open one. Maybe a maid cleaning the office will open one. There are many scenarios where one of those Bibles could do great good. Never underestimate the power of the Word.

A Chinese man received a Bible many years ago and ripped it up threw it away. A dog got one page in its mouth and carried it elsewhere, where a Chinese general found it. It was the story of a battle, and the general wanted to find out what happened, so he called in a missionary. Through one torn page of a Bible, many Chinese were saved.

 

[humblethinker]

John, do you think your grandfather, John R. Rice (for those who don't already know) would identify with these preachers in this specific effort of theirs? Would he be a bird of the same feather?

 

[John of Japan]

John, do you think your grandfather, John R. Rice (for those who don't already know) would identify with these preachers in this specific effort of theirs? Would he be a bird of the same feather?

That's a good question. I think he would have cheered the preachers on insofar as they were trying to get the Bible out and reach people for Christ, even politicians. :smilewinkgrin: But he rarely participated in political action, and rarely used his paper for political discussion, except insofar as a moral issue like abortion or the death penalty was in view. He normally felt that to pursue a political agenda meant to water down efforts to fulfill the Great Commission. But he did believe that a Christian should be a good citizen, as shown in his book, I Am a Fundamentalist, ch. 10, "The Bible Fundamentalist is a Good Christian Citizen."

There was one exception to the above in his life. During the Carter-Ford election of 1976, he went to Washington with Jerry Falwell and several others for a press conference to protest efforts by the Carter campaign to prevent Falwell's messages on the campaign from being aired.

 

[Luke2427]

My grandfather was a fundamentalist evangelist and saw 100,000 come to Christ. He taught me so much and meant so much to me. And Grandma lived the meaning of unconditional love. My father was a fundamentalist pastor and saw many come to Christ. I have his NT from when he pastored for 5 years in CO, with hash marks for 82 won to Christ. My fundamentalist mother won me to Christ. I thank God so much for my fundamentalist parents.

I was educated in 3 fundamentalist colleges by some wonderful, godly fundamentalist teachers, some of them still friends, including a nationally known Hebrew scholar. I married a wonderful fundamentalist girl, who was also educated in a fundamentalist college and is to this day my best friend. We had one child, a fundamentalist scholar who just finished his PhD dissertation on NT Greek linguistics. He loves God and serves God in his fundamentalist church.

I became a missionary through a fundamentalist mission board, mentored by the evangelist director and his successor. I am supported by 48 fundamentalist churches, which quietly go their way trying to reach the world for Christ without making a media fuss. Many of the pastors are good friends. (There are over 4000 fundamentalist missionaries like me around the world, almost all of them striving to win souls and plant churches.) I often thank God for the privilege of serving Him as a missionary.

There are 19 fundamentalist missionaries and Japanese pastors on our island, and twice a year we get together for some wonderful fundamentalist fellowship. They all are quietly seeking to win the island for Christ without making much of a fuss at it.

Tomorrow I'll go to the church and prepare my sermon, then about five I'll visit a drug pusher (probably an addict too) who is interested in the Lord because his former yakuza (Japanese mafia) boss got saved through our ministry. I'll try to win him to Christ. Then on Sunday I'll preach in my tiny Japanese fundamentalist church, happy to be serving Christ.

So, will I worry about those people in the website you linked to, who like to mock and make fun of fundamentalists? Naw. I'll just remember that Paul said: "And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day" (1 Cor. 4:12-13). You can't serve God faithfully without being mocked and defamed. But God knows those who are His.

In my opinion, you are not being mocked for serving Christ.

You are being mocked for the ignorance that is rampant in your ranks.

Playing the martyr card, as if there are not innumerable people in your ranks who are not worthy of fierce criticism, is unbecoming.

You may be a fine fella, and I don't doubt it. But the name "fundamentalist" denotes, in the minds of many, and for good reason, backwards, narrow-minded, Pharisaical people clinging tenaciously, hopelessly and rather unnecessarily to a bygone era.

 

[Bob Alkire]

You may be a fine fella, and I don't doubt it. But the name "fundamentalist" denotes, in the minds of many, and for good reason, backwards, narrow-minded, Pharisaical people clinging tenaciously, hopelessly and rather unnecessarily to a bygone era.

I still clam to be a fundamentalist and will till I'm called home. Sometime get out and see what fundamentalist are, they come in many shapes and forms. I've seen good and bad in the camp as well as in other camps. I came out of a Presbyterian camp and they to had good and bad. Most of the time when you stand up for something you are called narrow minded by many, but I still stand for the Scripture is the Word of God, there is one and only one way of salvation and we are to witness to the lost and help the ones in need, I could go on and on but you see the picture. Folks like Gregory Boyd, Clark Pinnock and David Ray Griffin all say we are narrow minded and don't know what we are talking about.

 

[John of Japan]

I still clam to be a fundamentalist and will till I'm called home. Sometime get out and see what fundamentalist are, they come in many shapes and forms. I've seen good and bad in the camp as well as in other camps. I came out of a Presbyterian camp and they to had good and bad. Most of the time when you stand up for something you are called narrow minded by many, but I still stand for the Scripture is the Word of God, there is one and only one way of salvation and we are to witness to the lost and help the ones in need, I could go on and on but you see the picture. Folks like Gregory Boyd, Clark Pinnock and David Ray Griffin all say we are narrow minded and don't know what we are talking about.

Good post, Bob. Sure there are problems in fundamentalism, just like in any other group. But I am at heart an optimist. I like to look at the best in people and movements.

At its best, fundamentalism is about aggressive evangelism and world-wide missions, and has been from the start. (Seven of the original 64 articles in "The Fundamentals" were about this.) It is about church planting, as proven by the fact that almost all IFB missionaries are church planters, and as the recent books by Paul Chappell and Bud Calvert and others prove. (And both men lead conferences on church planting.) It is about the defense of the faith, standing strong against liberalism and other heresies. It is about making much of the Bible, so that there are many Bible printing ministries that get out literally millions of Bibles or Bible portions out around the world in many languages every year. It is about innovation, reaching people through the Internet and other recent channels. (I have been translating and providing materials for two websites, both of which are designed to reach around the world in many languages. One has put my complete messages/lectures on Roman on Youtube: do a search on "Research in Romans.")

Above all, fundamentalism at its best is about loving and following God and His Son with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. And that is why I will stay one.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Above all, fundamentalism at its best is about loving and following God and His Son with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. And that is why I will stay one.

John, all you said is true, but this last part is it for me. If I do that everything else that I'm to do should fall into place and be done to His will and glory.

 

[Luke2427]

Good post, Bob. Sure there are problems in fundamentalism, just like in any other group. But I am at heart an optimist. I like to look at the best in people and movements.

At its best, fundamentalism is about aggressive evangelism and world-wide missions, and has been from the start. (Seven of the original 64 articles in "The Fundamentals" were about this.) It is about church planting, as proven by the fact that almost all IFB missionaries are church planters, and as the recent books by Paul Chappell and Bud Calvert and others prove. (And both men lead conferences on church planting.) It is about the defense of the faith, standing strong against liberalism and other heresies. It is about making much of the Bible, so that there are many Bible printing ministries that get out literally millions of Bibles or Bible portions out around the world in many languages every year. It is about innovation, reaching people through the Internet and other recent channels. (I have been translating and providing materials for two websites, both of which are designed to reach around the world in many languages. One has put my complete messages/lectures on Roman on Youtube: do a search on "Research in Romans.")

Above all, fundamentalism at its best is about loving and following God and His Son with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. And that is why I will stay one.

No, no. I have never heard of someone pat themselves on the back so much. Never heard of someone be so quick to claim the moral high ground.

Fundamentalists are not KNOWN for "loving and following God with all of their hearts, blah, blah, blah..."

That is NOT what they are KNOWN for.

That may be how they arrogantly view themselves, but it is not how objective observers view them.

People see them as divisive, Pharisaical, fault-finding, largely uneducated and backwards people who strain at gnats and swallow camels.

Now, whether or not that is accurate across the board is debatable.

But let's beam ourselves up from La-la Land where we think so highly of ourselves and where we think others see us as awesome as we see ourselves, ok?

 

[John of Japan]

John, all you said is true, but this last part is it for me. If I do that everything else that I'm to do should fall into place and be done to His will and glory.

Amen, brother. :thumbs:

 

[Squire Robertsson]

SNIPPeople see them as divisive, Pharisaical, fault-finding, largely uneducated and backwards people who strain at gnats and swallow camels.

Now, whether or not that is accurate across the board is debatable. SNIP

The accusation of being largely uneducated is most certainly not accurate. Consider this:
From 1977-1979, MBBC Catalog:
B. Myron Cedarholm, B.A, B.D., Th.M. D.D Litt.D., L.H.D. Iowa State College, University of Minnesota, Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Princeton Theological Seminary, Northwestern Schools, Baptist Bible College [Denver], Bob Jones University
M. James Hollowood, B.A., Th.B., D.D., University of the City of New York, National Bible Institute, Eastern Baptist College, Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Central Baptist Seminary
Richard C. Weeks, B.A., B.D. M.A. D.D. Wheaton College, Albion College, Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, University of Chicago [Residence work completed for Th.D.] Pillsbury College
The above three were MBBC's founding troika. And:
Dr. Cedarholm's Th.M. is from Princeton. He also completed the residence courses for a "theological doctorate" from Princeton. (Mattsen, Steven M.; B. Myron Cedarholm: Man of Character, Man of God; Frontline Magazine; May/June 1999.) I assume the "theological doctorate" would have been a Th.D.. Though considering Dr. C's character, it might have been a Ph.D..
Each of them had solid graduate theological training if not partial post graduate training.

A fairer observation would be too many Fundamentalists are undereducated. But, some of that is generational and is being worked out of the movement through attrition.

 

[Luke2427]

The accusation of being largely uneducated is most certainly not accurate. Consider this:
From 1977-1979, MBBC Catalog:
B. Myron Cedarholm, B.A, B.D., Th.M. D.D Litt.D., L.H.D. Iowa State College, University of Minnesota, Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Princeton Theological Seminary, Northwestern Schools, Baptist Bible College [Denver], Bob Jones University
M. James Hollowood, B.A., Th.B., D.D., University of the City of New York, National Bible Institute, Eastern Baptist College, Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Central Baptist Seminary
Richard C. Weeks, B.A., B.D. M.A. D.D. Wheaton College, Albion College, Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, University of Chicago [Residence work completed for Th.D.] Pillsbury College
The above three were MBBC's founding troika. And:
Dr. Cedarholm's Th.M. is from Princeton. He also completed the residence courses for a "theological doctorate" from Princeton. (Mattsen, Steven M.; B. Myron Cedarholm: Man of Character, Man of God; Frontline Magazine; May/June 1999.) I assume the "theological doctorate" would have been a Th.D.. Though considering Dr. C's character, it might have been a Ph.D..
Each of them had solid graduate theological training if not partial post graduate training.

A fairer observation would be too many Fundamentalists are undereducated. But, some of that is generational and is being worked out of the movement through attrition.

I think the word "largely" negates the needfulness of your statement here.

There can not be a stupider faith in the world, in my opinion, than Mormonism yet there are some Mormons who are highly educated.

Saying there are several people who are educated coming out of a movement that is VASTLY backwards and uneducated does not negate in any way the fact that the MOVEMENT is still VASTLY backwards and uneducated- at least it is viewed that way.

It is the personal testimony of myself and others who have been exposed to large swath's of IFB life that most of the preachers and people we've seen are rather backwards clinging to doctrines (like KJVO for example) that no remotely intelligent person could hold to.

Yes, yes, I know, I know. Not every IFB is KJVO- as if that is the only backwards belief prevalent in the movement. I know, I know.

And I also know the other thing some of you will say here- this business about the IFB being SO massive that there is no way I could have seen enough of them to make this judgment. Then I will obliterate that notion saying I have been to meetings and seen other meetings where thousands of IFB pastors gather to shout AMEN at the stupidest, most backwards preaching one can imagine.

Then the person who still resists my arguments will just call me ugly names and insinuate all kinds of dumb stuff about me like I am some little kid or something who does not know what he is talking about... yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah... (even though I have been preaching for 17 years and am a father of five children and have been a senior pastor for ten years...

I'm not saying you would do it Squire. I'm just saying that's the way these things usually go.

 

[saturneptune]

Sometimes there is an uncomfortable route in learning new things here on this board and having to admit one is wrong. I had read John of Japans threads for years, and did not realize he was a fundamentalist. His posts were/are Biblically correct. At the same time, I never bothered to read anything about the group, as I dismissed them as a group of nuts more interested in people not wearing short skirts and dancing than telling others about Jesus.

Then a while back, I made a comment on a thread relating to this subject, and to my shock, John was one and let me know it. I wanted to crawl into the nearest hole. Since then, reading their doctrine, and getting to know some, I was very wrong. I do not agree with some of their ideas about do's and dont's, but they are brothers and sisters in Christ, and are very fervent about being a Christian. It is a blessing to have them telling others the Gospel.

 

[John of Japan]

Sometimes there is an uncomfortable route in learning new things here on this board and having to admit one is wrong. I had read John of Japans threads for years, and did not realize he was a fundamentalist. His posts were/are Biblically correct. At the same time, I never bothered to read anything about the group, as I dismissed them as a group of nuts more interested in people not wearing short skirts and dancing than telling others about Jesus.

Then a while back, I made a comment on a thread relating to this subject, and to my shock, John was one and let me know it. I wanted to crawl into the nearest hole. Since then, reading their doctrine, and getting to know some, I was very wrong. I do not agree with some of their ideas about do's and dont's, but they are brothers and sisters in Christ, and are very fervent about being a Christian. It is a blessing to have them telling others the Gospel.

Thanks so much, friend. That is a blessing and encouragement! :wavey: