Man’s Duty vs. God’s Elective Purpose Explained

[Brightfame52]

That is not biblical.

Oh yes it is.

 

[Brightfame52]

So your saying that all those that are condemned to hell have a valid complaint against God as according to you Christ Jesus did not die for their sins. And you say this even though the bible disagrees with you.
1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Now I really hope you can read the English here? Try not to twist the words or change the meaning of the words OK.

Sinners Christ didnt die for are under the curse of the law, to do the whole law. They had no surety to substitute for them. They either do the whole law perfectly without sin, or die in their sins.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh yes it is.

Oh no it’s not. You’re going beyond what scripture says about this subject.

 

[George Antonios]

Man's inability and unwillingness are due to his sin, not God's sin or another's sin.

That skips the core issue here.
Question: In the Calvinist philosophy, who so constituted Adam's fallen nature as to render it unable to respond in faith to the gospel, or even to acknowledge its own bondage?
Answer: God himself.
He could have (and did) so constituted Adam's fallen nature as to still allow it the ability to perceive its own depravity and at least believe the gospel of his own.
In your system, to use an imperfect analogy, God himself basically drugs the fallen human race into absolute spiritual unconsciousness then calls them to respond in faith, then burns them eternally for not responding.
I've never seen a Calvinist on this board (and I'm not an Arminian) honestly deal with the fact that, in their system, God himself sets up the parameters of Adam's fallen condition.
They all say "because of the fall man became unable", yet the folks who cry out that God foreordained and planned and designed all things, suddenly silence their tune when it comes to the issue that God himself so constituted Adam's fallen nature as to make him unable.
God controlled the effects of the fall. So it's not so much because of man, but because of God.
And how ironic that the folks who say all things are of and because of God, suddenly change their tune here. Suddenly, it's not God in charge of the effects of the fall on human nature, it's man himself. How Pelagian of you.
So just saying "due to sin" is really dodging the issue. Every. time.
and who is sufficient for these things

 

[DaveXR650]

Everyone limits the atonement.
It is not complicated at all.
All the Father gives to the Son will come to Him.
He dies to save every one of them.

I have no problem with it stated like this. And I have no problem with the idea that if left to our own free will any of us will live a life with no interest in God, constantly sin willfully and then be justly judged for our sin. Left at that - the reason for our situation is on us. Limited atonement does put blame on God because people not included are already shut out before time began. I understand the logical gyrations you can go through to have it make sense but I'm having a hard time going with it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have no problem with it stated like this. And I have no problem with the idea that if left to our own free will any of us will live a life with no interest in God, constantly sin willfully and then be justly judged for our sin. Left at that - the reason for our situation is on us. Limited atonement does put blame on God because people not included are already shut out before time began. I understand the logical gyrations you can go through to have it make sense but I'm having a hard time going with it.

No sir, limited atonement does not put the blame on God. That’s a warped, carnal view of the atonement. God wasn’t beholden to any of us, yet in His great love, grace and mercy, sent His Son to die for those He chose, who were in no way shape form or fashion better than those He justly left in their sins. That’s why it’s called grace.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Those verses would pertain to sinners Christ died for, the elect, not sinners He didn't die for.

Where is that in the text of Mark 1:15 or Acts 17:30? Why are you adding to the words of God? Why are you placing a stumbling-block in the way of sinners coming to Christ? Why are you so terrified that one of the non-elect might sneak into heaven while God isn't looking?
'And everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved!' Why are you not satisfied with the plain words of Scripture? Preach the word of God, '.... warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus' (Colossians 1:28). Reason with sinners 'of righteousness, self-control and the judgement to come' (Acts 24:25) until you make them tremble; 'Convince, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and teaching' (2 Timothy 4:2). If you know anything of the terror of the Lord, why do you not persuade men (2 Corinthians 5:11)? Why will you not be an ambassador for Christ, 'as though God were pleading through [you]' ? Why will you not implore men and women to be reconciled to God (2 Cor. 5:20)?

Or will you raise objections? "Oh this verse only applies to that sort of person, and that verse to someone else in such-and-such a situation." Why will you not stop your caviling and do the work of an evangelist? Preach the word as it has come to you and let God worry about who may or may not be elect!

 

[Reformed1689]

Oh yes it is.

We have already shown you an explicit call for ALL to repent, not just the elect.

 

[Reformed1689]

We ha

Thats fine. Its still true.

We have already shown your error.

 

[Protestant]

That skips the core issue here.
Question: In the Calvinist philosophy, who so constituted Adam's fallen nature as to render it unable to respond in faith to the gospel, or even to acknowledge its own bondage?
Answer: God himself.
He could have (and did) so constituted Adam's fallen nature as to still allow it the ability to perceive its own depravity and at least believe the gospel of his own.
In your system, to use an imperfect analogy, God himself basically drugs the fallen human race into absolute spiritual unconsciousness then calls them to respond in faith, then burns them eternally for not responding.
I've never seen a Calvinist on this board (and I'm not an Arminian) honestly deal with the fact that, in their system, God himself sets up the parameters of Adam's fallen condition.
They all say "because of the fall man became unable", yet the folks who cry out that God foreordained and planned and designed all things, suddenly silence their tune when it comes to the issue that God himself so constituted Adam's fallen nature as to make him unable.
God controlled the effects of the fall. So it's not so much because of man, but because of God.
And how ironic that the folks who say all things are of and because of God, suddenly change their tune here. Suddenly, it's not God in charge of the effects of the fall on human nature, it's man himself. How Pelagian of you.
So just saying "due to sin" is really dodging the issue. Every. time.
and who is sufficient for these things

George, your arguments need answering because they are held by many sincere folks who hold similar errant views.

To be honest, there are many more questions one could ask as to why God chose to govern the world as He has. In fact, such questions are endless, as one question begets another question, etc.

For example, there is the question of evil. Why does a holy righteous omnipotent loving God allow evil in the first place, considering all the pain, hatred and destruction it causes? Non-Calvinists have no better response than do Calvinists.

So, rather than pose ‘gotcha’ questions which attempt to expose the alleged ‘false’ God worshipped by Calvinists, one needs to consider the divine character and attributes of our Creator as testified in the only authoritative source for such a mystifying revelation: God’s Word.

Upon a cursory study of the Bible, one is immediately struck by the fact that God does not include explanations as to why He ‘does what He does.’ Instead, we are told He does nothing without the ends and means to the end decreed before the foundation of the world. He has the authority to do this because He alone is His own authority. His actions and reasons for such actions are the result of the choices made by an infinitely wise, just, holy and all-powerful Being. Every move He makes is perfect in achieving the goals and ends He purposes.

Could God have done things differently? Not if perfection in attaining the ends He desired is the goal.

So, rather than attempt to disparage the character of the only perfect, holy and good Being, a wiser, humbler path to take would be one which acknowledges one’s limited capacity to dare question the mind of his Creator.

Calvinists believe the Word of God. They accept as true that which has been revealed in His Word. They refuse to speculate beyond what is written. They have carefully examined the whole counsel of God and developed a system of theology and apologetics which is consistent, God-honoring, as well as able to refute all systems which attempt to contradict it.

It is possible “He could have so constituted Adam's fallen nature as to still allow it the ability to perceive its own depravity and at least believe the gospel of his own.”

Yet, the fact that He did NOT is witnessed throughout Scripture by using the metaphor of death, which is universally recognized as the ultimate state of deep, irreversible unconsciousness, resulting in being deaf, dumb, blind and paralytic, unable to lift a finger, let alone ‘come to Christ in faith.’

Why did God 'do what He did?' The Bible responds, Because it pleased Him.

 

[Silverhair]

No sir, limited atonement does not put the blame on God. That’s a warped, carnal view of the atonement. God wasn’t beholden to any of us, yet in His great love, grace and mercy, sent His Son to die for those He chose, who were in no way shape form or fashion better than those He justly left in their sins. That’s why it’s called grace.

But if God desires all to come to repentance, which He does, and He is sovereign, which He is, then what stops Him from saving everyone? Nothing. Since in your view God determines all things then He could, and does, give man a free will so that man can chose to follow or reject Christ Jesus. So when a man goes to hell it is because they chose to go there. And if a man is saved it is because they chose to follow/trust in Christ Jesus. You will now say but that takes the glory away from God, my question is HOW.? Man cannot save himself, only God can save someone and He does so for those that trust in His son.

So you are left with the option of God allows free will man responsible for being in hell, no free will God is responsible for man being in hell.

 

[Reformed1689]

give man a free will

But what is man's will? Paul says it certainly is not to seek God.

 

[AustinC]

That skips the core issue here.
Question: In the Calvinist philosophy, who so constituted Adam's fallen nature as to render it unable to respond in faith to the gospel, or even to acknowledge its own bondage?
Answer: God himself.
He could have (and did) so constituted Adam's fallen nature as to still allow it the ability to perceive its own depravity and at least believe the gospel of his own.

George, Paul shows us in his letter to the Romans that humans do not perceive their own depravity or believe on their own.

Romans 1:18-24
But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired.

Romans 3:9-18
Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” “Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “They rush to commit murder. Destruction and misery always follow them. They don’t know where to find peace.” “They have no fear of God at all.”

Adam and his offspring, left to themselves, never show any capacity to believe. Paul makes it painfully clear. God must break in to the human and cause them to change their path toward destruction (repent). Humans will never repent apart from God causing them to repent. Scripture is clear on this, George. It's not an issue of philosophy, it's an issue of scripture telling us these facts. Read what I quoted in scripture. Don't run from it. Embrace it.

 

[DaveXR650]

No sir, limited atonement does not put the blame on God. That’s a warped, carnal view of the atonement.

The trouble with limited atonement is that it shuts out people from the beginning in a way that none of the other doctrines of grace do. If you say Gods chooses to save some but passes over others and he decided this from before any of us were born according to His own wisdom and purpose - you can believe this based on verses that support it and rest in the fact that God is wise and knows what he is doing. But a limited atonement is an actual thing that once done completely shuts the door on people before they are born. With a simple doctrine of election you can surmise as a human for instance that a particular person was not going to come to Christ but someone prayed for him and he heard the gospel and he did. And then later we as humans can say "Well sir, you were elect". So I can talk about the gospel to anyone and feel secure that they can be saved, their election being in the mind of God and not my worry. But if they were left out of the atonement, that is an absolute shutting of the door already, by a specific action of Christ. You may think it's warped and carnal but some of the Calvinistic Puritans like the Marrow men, Ralph Erskine and Robert Trail although they said they believed in limited atonement - preferred to say simply "Christ has died" because they were worried that the offer of the gospel would not be genuine if they didn't. I'm willing to admit that in my case it may be that I simply have reached the limits of my abstract thinking ability but apparently so have a lot of others.

 

[Silverhair]

George, your arguments need answering because they are held by many sincere folks who hold similar errant views.

To be honest, there are many more questions one could ask as to why God chose to govern the world as He has. In fact, such questions are endless, as one question begets another question, etc.

For example, there is the question of evil. Why does a holy righteous omnipotent loving God allow evil in the first place, considering all the pain, hatred and destruction it causes? Non-Calvinists have no better response than do Calvinists.

So, rather than pose ‘gotcha’ questions which attempt to expose the alleged ‘false’ God worshipped by Calvinists, one needs to consider the divine character and attributes of our Creator as testified in the only authoritative source for such a mystifying revelation: God’s Word.

Upon a cursory study of the Bible, one is immediately struck by the fact that God does not include explanations as to why He ‘does what He does.’ Instead, we are told He does nothing without the ends and means to the end decreed before the foundation of the world. He has the authority to do this because He alone is His own authority. His actions and reasons for such actions are the result of the choices made by an infinitely wise, just, holy and all-powerful Being. Every move He makes is perfect in achieving the goals and ends He purposes.

Could God have done things differently? Not if perfection in attaining the ends He desired is the goal.

So, rather than attempt to disparage the character of the only perfect, holy and good Being, a wiser, humbler path to take would be one which acknowledges one’s limited capacity to dare question the mind of his Creator.

Calvinists believe the Word of God. They accept as true that which has been revealed in His Word. They refuse to speculate beyond what is written. They have carefully examined the whole counsel of God and developed a system of theology and apologetics which is consistent, God-honoring, as well as able to refute all systems which attempt to contradict it.

It is possible “He could have so constituted Adam's fallen nature as to still allow it the ability to perceive its own depravity and at least believe the gospel of his own.”

Yet, the fact that He did NOT is witnessed throughout Scripture by using the metaphor of death, which is universally recognized as the ultimate state of deep, irreversible unconsciousness, resulting in being deaf, dumb, blind and paralytic, unable to lift a finger, let alone ‘come to Christ in faith.’

Why did God 'do what He did?' The Bible responds, Because it pleased Him.

That is a great answer if you forget that the other side of what you have said is that God has chosen to condemn billions for no other reason than He could do it. And let us not forget He then says you are condemned because you refuse to come to me, and all the while it was impossible for them to do so.

Your logic may sooth your conscience but it in no way reflects the character of God as found in the bible.

Something that you wrote does help point out a major error in your thinking. >>the ultimate state of deep, irreversible unconsciousness, resulting in being deaf, dumb, blind and paralytic, unable to lift a finger, let alone ‘come to Christ in faith.’<< You use this as a proof that man can do nothing to come to God in faith, but do you not see that it also proves that man can not sin, because he can do nothing, those are your words and the words I have heard and read from many many Calvinists. Your own logic points out your errors.

Does man sin, yes, and he will be held to account for it. But, and this is what you overlook, although man sins God in His sovereign power has given man the free will to make real life changing choices. God has given man the brains and the ability to use them so that he can evaluate information and decide if he wants to repent and trust in or reject the offer of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Iconoclast]

The trouble with limited atonement is that it shuts out people from the beginning in a way that none of the other doctrines of grace do. If you say Gods chooses to save some but passes over others and he decided this from before any of us were born according to His own wisdom and purpose - you can believe this based on verses that support it and rest in the fact that God is wise and knows what he is doing. But a limited atonement is an actual thing that once done completely shuts the door on people before they are born. With a simple doctrine of election you can surmise as a human for instance that a particular person was not going to come to Christ but someone prayed for him and he heard the gospel and he did. And then later we as humans can say "Well sir, you were elect". So I can talk about the gospel to anyone and feel secure that they can be saved, their election being in the mind of God and not my worry. But if they were left out of the atonement, that is an absolute shutting of the door already, by a specific action of Christ. You may think it's warped and carnal but some of the Calvinistic Puritans like the Marrow men, Ralph Erskine and Robert Trail although they said they believed in limited atonement - preferred to say simply "Christ has died" because they were worried that the offer of the gospel would not be genuine if they didn't. I'm willing to admit that in my case it may be that I simply have reached the limits of my abstract thinking ability but apparently so have a lot of others.

Paul said Christ Jesus died to save sinners.
We all qualify.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

That is the biblical message.

 

[Silverhair]

George, Paul shows us in his letter to the Romans that humans do not perceive their own depravity or believe on their own.

Romans 1:18-24
But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired.

Romans 3:9-18
Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” “Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “They rush to commit murder. Destruction and misery always follow them. They don’t know where to find peace.” “They have no fear of God at all.”

Adam and his offspring, left to themselves, never show any capacity to believe. Paul makes it painfully clear. God must break in to the human and cause them to change their path toward destruction (repent). Humans will never repent apart from God causing them to repent. Scripture is clear on this, George. It's not an issue of philosophy, it's an issue of scripture telling us these facts. Read what I quoted in scripture. Don't run from it. Embrace it.

Just a couple of comments here Austin. First Romans 1:18-24 please note that God says man has no excuse for not knowing Him and Second Romans 3:9-18 Paul takes some Old Testament passages of Scripture seemingly out of their natural contexts and applies them to all people in general. He does this to emphasize the fact that all have sinned, both Jew and Gentile, and all are deserving of God’s wrath. And we know that “God has committed them all [both Jew and Gentile] to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all” (Rom_11:32).

Please note the words "that He might have mercy on all." not that He would. So there must be a condition for obtaining salvation. And indeed there is.

You keep saying that man has no capacity to believe but what does the bible say?
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

And why do they call on His name?
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

And what brings about this trust?
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Note the order Paul describes here.
1) Why would they call if they did not believe?
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.
Rom_10:14-15

Hearing the Gospel
Believing the Gospel
Calling on Christ Jesus
Salvation by the Grace of God

You may not like what you see but as you say trust the scriptures. And so you should.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Silverhair,
I am sure Protestant will jump in and offer his solid answers once again which will answer you in full, but I wanted to jump in at this teachable moment.

Let's examine why Silverhair remains confused and opposes himself.

Your logic may sooth your conscience but it in no way reflects the character of God as found in the bible.[/QUOTE]

Silverhair says he is concerned with"the character of God as found in the bible".

However, SH, instead portrays a god of his imagination that is in fact not revealed in the bible.
How does he do that? lets take a closer look,shall we?

That is a great answer if you forget that the other side of what you have said is that God has chosen to condemn billions for no other reason than He could do it. [/QUOTE]

SH, now makes a suggestion that God just randomly sends Billions to hell for no reason, or as he says for no other reason than he could??? So sin and rebellion have nothing to do with it?That unsaved persons hate the biblical God and His word , has nothing to do with it?
It is SH, who describes a god not found in scripture.

And let us not forget He then says you are condemned because you refuse to come to me, and all the while it was impossible for them to do so.

Just for good measure, he now blames God for man's sin and rebellion. man's sin is not the ultimate cause, but you guessed it...God made it impossible.

,

although man sins God in His sovereign power has given man the free will to make real life changing choices.

Now the free will idol is inserted once again, although not one bible verse describes this.

God has given man the brains and the ability to use them so that he can evaluate information and decide if he wants to repent and trust in or reject the offer of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

translation; full pelagianism, Adam did not die, but only needs a little therapy and rehab, he can do it .

 

[AustinC]

Just a couple of comments here Austin. First Romans 1:18-24 please note that God says man has no excuse for not knowing Him and Second Romans 3:9-18 Paul takes some Old Testament passages of Scripture seemingly out of their natural contexts and applies them to all people in general. He does this to emphasize the fact that all have sinned, both Jew and Gentile, and all are deserving of God’s wrath. And we know that “God has committed them all [both Jew and Gentile] to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all” (Rom_11:32).

Please note the words "that He might have mercy on all." not that He would. So there must be a condition for obtaining salvation. And indeed there is.

You keep saying that man has no capacity to believe but what does the bible say?
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

And why do they call on His name?
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

And what brings about this trust?
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Note the order Paul describes here.
1) Why would they call if they did not believe?
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.
Rom_10:14-15

Hearing the Gospel
Believing the Gospel
Calling on Christ Jesus
Salvation by the Grace of God

You may not like what you see but as you say trust the scriptures. And so you should.

This has been pointed out innumerable times to you, but your dull of hearing.
Those who call, verse 13, are those who hear, verse 14. But just hearing isn't enough. Israel heard, but didn't believe.
The answer is found in verse 20 (pay attention to Paul's train of thought).

But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, “Lord, who has believed our message?” So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ. But I ask, have the people of Israel actually heard the message? Yes, they have: “The message has gone throughout the earth, and the words to all the world.” But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said, “I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation. I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles.” And later Isaiah spoke boldly for God, saying, “I was found by people who were not looking for me. I showed myself to those who were not asking for me.”
~ Romans 10:16-20

Human "free will" is not what saves a person. God does not consult with your will to get your approval before he saves you.

 

[Silverhair]

This has been pointed out innumerable times to you, but your dull of hearing.
Those who call, verse 13, are those who hear, verse 14. But just hearing isn't enough. Israel heard, but didn't believe.
The answer is found in verse 20 (pay attention to Paul's train of thought).

But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, “Lord, who has believed our message?” So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ. But I ask, have the people of Israel actually heard the message? Yes, they have: “The message has gone throughout the earth, and the words to all the world.” But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said, “I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation. I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles.” And later Isaiah spoke boldly for God, saying, “I was found by people who were not looking for me. I showed myself to those who were not asking for me.”
~ Romans 10:16-20

Human "free will" is not what saves a person. God does not consult with your will to get your approval before he saves you.

Austin I see that you will continue to avoid what the text says or will just skip over those verses that you do not like. Do you think I only read select verses? I look at the whole council of God, including the verses that convict me. You must think that He has put all those verses about trusting in Him in the bible just as filler.

God saves but He saves because we believe. From all that you have said I have come to the understanding that you did not believe in God at all, you wanted nothing to do with Him or His son. In fact you were just like a corpse. Is that a fair understanding of how you were?

Now if that is what you were like then my question for you is, how do you know that you really believe now? According to you God has to give you your faith He has to make you repent. Trouble is that you cannot really know if those things are real as you had nothing to do with them. It all may be just wishful thinking on your part.

Austin what I see in the Calvinist view and the view that you put forward is that you all have your feet firmly planted in the air. You really have no firm foundation, you just hope you do.