Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Exactly, such a view puts us above God in the area of Salvation.
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Man’s Duty vs. God’s Elective Purpose Explained
- Thread starter Protestant
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LOL, I didn't avoid anything. I tried to help you see the whole so you don't miss the forest of God's grace. You keep wanting to point to one sentence and ignore the whole. I will have none of your terrible hermeneutics.
Moreso, I see you have reverted to arguing philosophy and attacking persons rather than go to scripture. This is precisely because the whole of God's word proves you are objectively wrong. Therefore your only ploy left is to fall on silly questions of philosophy.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Austin I am asking you a serious question that you try to deflect from. Does the truth of your view bother you. It should.
I am not attacking you Austin I am asking you where you are coming from. Just be honest with yourself. Your theological view really does not leave you a lot of options does? As to your >>your only ploy left is to fall on silly questions of philosophy.<< so you are saying that salvation is just a philosophical question?
Again, there is no trouble in this. Does man deserve to be saved? No, and I’m sure we both agree. When Adam fell, he and all his posterity fell, as they were in Adam. A truly just, holy, and good, God would have consigned him and all his posterity to the lake of fire. But He didn’t, did He? In great love, mercy, and grace, God chose a number of lawbreakers who hated Him, gave them to His Son to redeem. And ppl want to rail against that?
Again, do they deserve being saved? No. If God withholds anything from someone that which they do not deserve, He has done them no harm. What man deserves is eternal punishment, not salvation.
There is no “if” to this, Christ did not die for everyone, because if He has, then the Father has been propitiated (remember, it’s the Father who receives the propitiation not us) and He is satisfied with the payment made by the Son. His wrath has been appeased for everyone as the Son has appeased the wrath by paying everyone’s sin debt in full, and on the day of judgment there is no wrath to be meted out.
An unlimited atonement runs you right into universalism. Look at it like this. Someone is found guilty in a court of law. The judge imposes the sentence of $15,000 or six months in prison. This person does not have the money to pay it. In steps someone who pays the fine for them. The judge accepts the payment and then sentences them to six months in prison anyways. Will ppl applaud such an act as someone who is an honorable judge? Of course not. They will speak to how unjust he/she is. Same with God. God will consign many(under the unlimited atonement schema) to the lake of fire even after Christ paid for their sins. It’s not enough for Him to pay for them, they have to pay for them, too.
Now, that would be an unjust God. The reformed view shows that God is just in all that He does, and even the destruction of the lost in a lake of fire is a just thing for Him to carry out.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
oh yes it is
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Its not in the text, its scripture principle. The non elect who Christ didnt die for are indebted to do the whole law. They are married to the law.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
No sorry its only to the elect.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
I must respond to Silverhair’s sincere arguments because of the many serious errors in both Bible teaching, as well as common sense.
God has chosen to condemn billions for no other reason than He could do it.
The Bible teaches no such thing. Neither do Calvinists. Billions are condemned for their sin…. the wages of sin is death. The elect, as well as reprobate, all experience the first death of the body because all sinned in Adam (Romans 5:12). Those whose sins are not forgiven will experience the second death.
And let us not forget He then says you are condemned because you refuse to come to me, and all the while it was impossible for them to do so.
The cause of their impossibility is their sin. Their sin nature abhors the light, holiness and truth of Christ…. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Something that you wrote does help point out a major error in your thinking. >>the ultimate state of deep, irreversible unconsciousness, resulting in being deaf, dumb, blind and paralytic, unable to lift a finger, let alone ‘come to Christ in faith.’<< You use this as a proof that man can do nothing to come to God in faith, but do you not see that it also proves that man can not sin, because he can do nothing, those are your words and the words I have heard and read from many many Calvinists. Your own logic points out your errors.
The spiritual state of unregenerate man is metaphorically described as equivalent in nature to natural death (Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13). Sin steals, kills and destroys. Although the carnal man still retains the ability to actively enjoy and participate in his carnal lusts, it does not mean he is alive and well. Rather, it means his sin nature is still intact, dominating his every decision, including rejecting the Gospel commands to repent and believe the Gospel.
God in His sovereign power has given man the free will to make real life changing choices. God has given man the brains and the ability to use them so that he can evaluate information and decide if he wants to repent and trust in or reject the offer of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Silverhair, where are your scriptural proof texts? Besides, you neglect to consider the use of Adam’s free will, who was blessed with original righteousness, never having had a sinful thought, word or deed. The testing of mankind is over….. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
In summation, Silverhair, you are unable to prove any of your arguments using Scripture alone. Instead, you insist on preferring the authority of your own ‘humble’ opinions, feelings and free-wheeling imagination. That is not the Bible standard of orthodoxy, nor will it ever be.
Silverhair, I have provided the whole of Romans 10 so you can see that only those who hear will confess faith. I showed you that in Romans 10,God tells you that even those who hear the gospel don't believe, but only those to whom God shows himself.
Romans 10:20
And later Isaiah spoke boldly for God, saying, “I was found by people who were not looking for me. I showed myself to those who were not asking for me.”
You have been fully answered. It is time for you to stop looking for a loophole in an effort to make yourself the willful savior of your soul and admit that your salvation is 100% of and from God alone.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Sadly, no less an orthodox leader such as Dr. George Ella believes such 'duty-faith' heresy. I quote from his website: Duty-faith can only mean salvation by works.... Man does not owe saving faith to God unless he has it.
A.W. Pink gives a biblical response to this serious error, while quoting several giants of the Reformation who reflect the truth that it is every man's duty and obligation to believe every word and command which is God-ordained. "Duty Faith" by A.W. Pink (the-highway.com)
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Dave G. said: "However, I also see that the Lord Jesus, being sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, commanded them, under the Law of Moses that they agreed to obey, to repent and believe.
In other words, they were responsible and they have the actual duty to repent and believe the Gospel."
But what of the innumerable Roman soldiers who were witnesses to Christ's miracles, preaching and crucifixion? Were they exempt from being morally responsible to repent and believe?
SH doesn’t realize the implication of imputation of Adam’s. Imputation teaches that whatever has been imputed, whether it was Adam’s sin or Christ’s righteousness, God treats them as if they were the ones who did it. That is why babies die even in the womb.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Exegete the passage to show that then. Good luck.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You should read your bible more try
Gen 3:17 And to Adam He said: “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat, cursed is the ground because of you; through toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 Both thorns and thistles it will yield for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your bread, until you return to the ground—because out of it were you taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.”
What I do not see in here is what you Calvinists read into it.
Tell me, what do I read into it?
@Silverhair What does this say? What do you read into it?
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
~ Romans 5:12-19
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
~ Romans 5:12-19
Once again, where do you find this in the Scripture? You don't. The only people who are warned about becoming indebted to keep the whole law were the Galatian Christians in Galatians 5:3 who were thinking of becoming circumcised.
If you know infallibly who these 'non-elect' are and can paint a red stripe down their backs so that I can recognize them, I won't preach to them, but until you do that I shall follow the command of my Lord as best I can: "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature....." and He tells me that "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:15-16). But what if he's non-elect (shock, horror!)? I think I'll let God worry about that. My job is to preach the Gospel. I can't save anyone. All I can do is tell folk, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved' (Acts of the Apostles 16:31). And if they do, they will, because God's word says so; and when they do, it will be because God has loved them from before the foundation of the world, has drawn them with lovingkindness, placed them where they can hear the Gospel and opened their hearts to receive it.
Ezekiel 33:11. "Say to them, 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?"
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Indeed. I corresponded with Dr Ella in the past and met him on two occasions. He is quite blind to this serious error. The Pink article is excellent and I recommend everyone to read it. Some people foolishly charge Pink with being 'Hyper,' but in fact he resigned two Pastorates rather than compromise the open preaching of the Gospel.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I will not, I have given my scriptural reasons, if you dont except that, fine with me.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Its all in scripture. The non elect who Christ didn't die for, they are married to the law. Only the death of Christ makes people free from the law to believe in Christ. Rom 7:4
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
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