Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Exactly, such a view puts us above God in the area of Salvation.Human "free will" is not what saves a person. God does not consult with your will to get your approval before he saves you.
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Exactly, such a view puts us above God in the area of Salvation.Human "free will" is not what saves a person. God does not consult with your will to get your approval before he saves you.
LOL, I didn't avoid anything. I tried to help you see the whole so you don't miss the forest of God's grace. You keep wanting to point to one sentence and ignore the whole. I will have none of your terrible hermeneutics.Austin I see that you will continue to avoid what the text says or will just skip over those verses that you do not like. Do you think I only read select verses? I look at the whole council of God, including the verses that convict me. You must think that He has put all those verses about trusting in Him in the bible just as filler.
God saves but He saves because we believe. From all that you have said I have come to the understanding that you did not believe in God at all, you wanted nothing to do with Him or His son. In fact you were just like a corpse. Is that a fair understanding of how you were?
Now if that is what you were like then my question for you is, how do you know that you really believe now? According to you God has to give you your faith He has to make you repent. Trouble is that you cannot really know if those things are real as you had nothing to do with them. It all may be just wishful thinking on your part.
Austin what I see in the Calvinist view and the view that you put forward is that you all have your feet firmly planted in the air. You really have no firm foundation, you just hope you do.
LOL, I didn't avoid anything. I tried to help you see the whole so you don't miss the forest of God's grace. You keep wanting to point to one sentence and ignore the whole. I will have none of your terrible hermeneutics.
Moreso, I see you have reverted to arguing philosophy and attacking persons rather than go to scripture. This is precisely because the whole of God's word proves you are objectively wrong. Therefore your only ploy left is to fall on silly questions of philosophy.
The trouble with limited atonement is that it shuts out people from the beginning in a way that none of the other doctrines of grace do.
But a limited atonement is an actual thing that once done completely shuts the door on people before they are born.
But if they were left out of the atonement, that is an absolute shutting of the door already, by a specific action of Christ.
oh yes it isOh no it’s not. You’re going beyond what scripture says about this subject.
Its not in the text, its scripture principle. The non elect who Christ didnt die for are indebted to do the whole law. They are married to the law.Where is that in the text of Mark 1:15 or Acts 17:30? Why are you adding to the words of God? Why are you placing a stumbling-block in the way of sinners coming to Christ? Why are you so terrified that one of the non-elect might sneak into heaven while God isn't looking?
'And everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved!' Why are you not satisfied with the plain words of Scripture? Preach the word of God, '.... warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus' (Colossians 1:28). Reason with sinners 'of righteousness, self-control and the judgement to come' (Acts 24:25) until you make them tremble; 'Convince, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and teaching' (2 Timothy 4:2). If you know anything of the terror of the Lord, why do you not persuade men (2 Corinthians 5:11)? Why will you not be an ambassador for Christ, 'as though God were pleading through [you]' ? Why will you not implore men and women to be reconciled to God (2 Cor. 5:20)?
Or will you raise objections? "Oh this verse only applies to that sort of person, and that verse to someone else in such-and-such a situation." Why will you not stop your caviling and do the work of an evangelist? Preach the word as it has come to you and let God worry about who may or may not be elect!
No sorry its only to the elect.We have already shown you an explicit call for ALL to repent, not just the elect.
That is a great answer if you forget that the other side of what you have said is that God has chosen to condemn billions for no other reason than He could do it. And let us not forget He then says you are condemned because you refuse to come to me, and all the while it was impossible for them to do so.
Your logic may sooth your conscience but it in no way reflects the character of God as found in the bible.
Something that you wrote does help point out a major error in your thinking. >>the ultimate state of deep, irreversible unconsciousness, resulting in being deaf, dumb, blind and paralytic, unable to lift a finger, let alone ‘come to Christ in faith.’<< You use this as a proof that man can do nothing to come to God in faith, but do you not see that it also proves that man can not sin, because he can do nothing, those are your words and the words I have heard and read from many many Calvinists. Your own logic points out your errors.
Does man sin, yes, and he will be held to account for it. But, and this is what you overlook, although man sins God in His sovereign power has given man the free will to make real life changing choices. God has given man the brains and the ability to use them so that he can evaluate information and decide if he wants to repent and trust in or reject the offer of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Silverhair, I have provided the whole of Romans 10 so you can see that only those who hear will confess faith. I showed you that in Romans 10,God tells you that even those who hear the gospel don't believe, but only those to whom God shows himself.Austin I am asking you a serious question that you try to deflect from. Does the truth of your view bother you. It should.
I am not attacking you Austin I am asking you where you are coming from. Just be honest with yourself. Your theological view really does not leave you a lot of options does? As to your >>your only ploy left is to fall on silly questions of philosophy.<< so you are saying that salvation is just a philosophical question?
Oh boy! So when Peter told the Jews in Acts 2:38 to 'repent and be baptized...... for the remission of sins,' they didn't need to believe in Christ? Crackers!
I agree, and I see that Paul would not have said this at Mars Hill if the Gospel were not to be preached to all men:
" For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead." ( Acts of the Apostles 17:23-31 ).
I hold that those who preach should declare Christ crucified to all men indiscriminately,
and those who repent and believe, from the heart, are those of His elect that have ears to hear.
However, I also see that the Lord Jesus, being sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, commanded them, under the Law of Moses that they agreed to obey, to repent and believe.
In other words, they were responsible and they have the actual duty to repent and believe the Gospel.
Seems like a fine point, but there it is.
SH doesn’t realize the implication of imputation of Adam’s. Imputation teaches that whatever has been imputed, whether it was Adam’s sin or Christ’s righteousness, God treats them as if they were the ones who did it. That is why babies die even in the womb.I must respond to Silverhair’s sincere arguments because of the many serious errors in both Bible teaching, as well as common sense.
God has chosen to condemn billions for no other reason than He could do it.
The Bible teaches no such thing. Neither do Calvinists. Billions are condemned for their sin…. the wages of sin is death. The elect, as well as reprobate, all experience the first death of the body because all sinned in Adam (Romans 5:12). Those whose sins are not forgiven will experience the second death.
And let us not forget He then says you are condemned because you refuse to come to me, and all the while it was impossible for them to do so.
The cause of their impossibility is their sin. Their sin nature abhors the light, holiness and truth of Christ…. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Something that you wrote does help point out a major error in your thinking. >>the ultimate state of deep, irreversible unconsciousness, resulting in being deaf, dumb, blind and paralytic, unable to lift a finger, let alone ‘come to Christ in faith.’<< You use this as a proof that man can do nothing to come to God in faith, but do you not see that it also proves that man can not sin, because he can do nothing, those are your words and the words I have heard and read from many many Calvinists. Your own logic points out your errors.
The spiritual state of unregenerate man is metaphorically described as equivalent in nature to natural death (Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13). Sin steals, kills and destroys. Although the carnal man still retains the ability to actively enjoy and participate in his carnal lusts, it does not mean he is alive and well. Rather, it means his sin nature is still intact, dominating his every decision, including rejecting the Gospel commands to repent and believe the Gospel.
God in His sovereign power has given man the free will to make real life changing choices. God has given man the brains and the ability to use them so that he can evaluate information and decide if he wants to repent and trust in or reject the offer of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Silverhair, where are your scriptural proof texts? Besides, you neglect to consider the use of Adam’s free will, who was blessed with original righteousness, never having had a sinful thought, word or deed. The testing of mankind is over….. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
In summation, Silverhair, you are unable to prove any of your arguments using Scripture alone. Instead, you insist on preferring the authority of your own ‘humble’ opinions, feelings and free-wheeling imagination. That is not the Bible standard of orthodoxy, nor will it ever be.
Exegete the passage to show that then. Good luck.No sorry its only to the elect.
SH doesn’t realize the implication of imputation of Adam’s. Imputation teaches that whatever has been imputed, whether it was Adam’s sin or Christ’s righteousness, God treats them as if they were the ones who did it. That is why babies die even in the womb.
Tell me, what do I read into it?You should read your bible more try
Gen 3:17 And to Adam He said: “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat, cursed is the ground because of you; through toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 Both thorns and thistles it will yield for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your bread, until you return to the ground—because out of it were you taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.”
What I do not see in here is what you Calvinists read into it.
Once again, where do you find this in the Scripture? You don't. The only people who are warned about becoming indebted to keep the whole law were the Galatian Christians in Galatians 5:3 who were thinking of becoming circumcised.Its not in the text, its scripture principle. The non elect who Christ didn't die for are indebted to do the whole law. They are married to the law.
Indeed. I corresponded with Dr Ella in the past and met him on two occasions. He is quite blind to this serious error. The Pink article is excellent and I recommend everyone to read it. Some people foolishly charge Pink with being 'Hyper,' but in fact he resigned two Pastorates rather than compromise the open preaching of the Gospel.Sadly, no less an orthodox leader such as Dr. George Ella believes such 'duty-faith' heresy. I quote from his website: Duty-faith can only mean salvation by works.... Man does not owe saving faith to God unless he has it.
A.W. Pink gives a biblical response to this serious error, while quoting several giants of the Reformation who reflect the truth that it is every man's duty and obligation to believe every word and command which is God-ordained. "Duty Faith" by A.W. Pink (the-highway.com)
I will not, I have given my scriptural reasons, if you dont except that, fine with me.Exegete the passage to show that then. Good luck.
Its all in scripture. The non elect who Christ didn't die for, they are married to the law. Only the death of Christ makes people free from the law to believe in Christ. Rom 7:4Once again, where do you find this in the Scripture? You don't. The only people who are warned about becoming indebted to keep the whole law were the Galatian Christians in Galatians 5:3 who were thinking of becoming circumcised.
If you know infallibly who these 'non-elect' are and can paint a red stripe down their backs so that I can recognize them, I won't preach to them, but until you do that I shall follow the command of my Lord as best I can: "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature....." and He tells me that "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:15-16). But what if he's non-elect? (shock, horror!) I think I'll let God worry about that. My job is to preach the Gospel. I can't save anyone. All I can do is tell folk, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved' (Acts of the Apostles 16:31). And if they do, they will, because God's word says so; and when they do, it will be because God has loved them from before the foundation of the world, has drawn them with lovingkindness, placed them where they can hear the Gospel and opened their hearts to receive it.
Ezekiel 33:11. "Say to them, 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?"