Man is unable to choose spiritual life (salvation) on his own!

[Winman]

Here are the versions that say RETURNED in 1 Pet 2:25

KJB- For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

NKJV- For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer* of your souls.

NIV- For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

ESV- For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

NASB- For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and *Guardian of your souls.

RSV- For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

ASV- For ye were going astray like sheep; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

DBY- For ye were going astray as sheep, but have now returned to the shepherd and overseer of your souls.

WEB- For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

HNV- For you were going astray like sheep; but are now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

That makes the score 10 to 1, you are getting trounced. Pathetic.

 

[DHK]

Right, nearly every other versions says RETURNED. If you were born separated from God, you could not return to him.

It has the same meaning. You fail to consider context. It is not speaking of OS, sin nature, etc. These suffering Christians (adults) had gone astray. Read the verse. And now, after suffering and moving astray they had returned.
--There is nothing about children in the verse.
It has no hint of being born. It is speaking of the Christian life.
These were suffering Christians!

What? I've showed the scripture several times.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

In Matthew 18 Jesus tells the same parable but says "which went not astray".

Get a book on hermeneutics. I have already explained these verses to you. You don't seem to want to know the truth.
Here is the truth. There is no person that can enter heaven without Christ.
There is no person that can enter heaven without repentance.
You are using Christ's words against himself turning Christ into a liar.
Christ said that repentance and remission of sins must be preached among all nations. (Luke 24). You say that it is not necessary. You make him out to be a liar.
--As I explained before he was saying those words about the Pharisees in sarcasm for they were the ones who THOUGHT they needed no repentance. There is no one doesn't need to repent--no one!

You are desperate man, you are sucking air. You will simply never admit when you have been shown wrong (which is OFTEN).

I know what the Scriptures say and I don't make them contradict each other as you do.

Yes, he was perfectly honest. The father did not call him a liar or hypocrite, but verified what he said was true. He called him Son, he said he was EVER with him, that is, he was NEVER separated from his father by sin, and he said ALL that he had was the elder son's. He did not say the elder son was dead or lost as he did the prodigal.

The Bible says that "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
You don't believe that.
You believe the elder son's testimony of himself, who said:
"neither sinned at any time."
You make the Word to contradict itself again.

When the boy rejected his father and left his home, afterward it said he was joined to a citizen of that far country he had gone into. I believe this represents Satan.

Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine

"This represents..."
You have gone the way of Origen (one heretic), and Augustine.
You are allegorizing Scripture, reading into it more than it needs to.
A citizen is a citizen is a citizen. That is all the citizen in the parable is.
Did you know that many Calvinists, especially the preterists, allegorize Scripture just like you have done? Have you switched camps?

Did Adam and Eve need to be born again?

It is easy to refute you, because truth will always defeat error.

Adam was born of God, was a child of God, and never lost his status as a child of God. Your statement or question, therefore makes no sense.

 

[DHK]

Here are the versions that say RETURNED in 1 Pet 2:25

KJB- For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

The word "astray" is the key word here.
Your statements simply show you don't understand the verse.

 

[Winman]

The word "astray" is the key word here.
Your statements simply show you don't understand the verse.

Jesus said a shepherd HAD 100 sheep. They were not lost. One went ASTRAY, that is, it got away from the flock and became lost. The shepherd left the 99 which WENT NOT ASTRAY and searched diligently until he found this one lost sheep. When he did, Jesus said there is more joy over one SINNER who repents than over 99 JUST persons WHICH NEED NO REPENTANCE.

I can read clearly, nothing complicated about this parable. Jesus did not teach that we are born lost in sin, he taught the exact opposite.

If you want to believe Augustine and Calvin, that is your right and your choice. I will believe what Jesus taught. That is all there is to it.

 

[DHK]

Jesus said a shepherd HAD 100 sheep. They were not lost. One went ASTRAY, that is, it got away from the flock and became lost. The shepherd left the 99 which WENT NOT ASTRAY and searched diligently until he found this one lost sheep. When he did, Jesus said there is more joy over one SINNER who repents than over 99 JUST persons WHICH NEED NO REPENTANCE.

I can read clearly, nothing complicated about this parable. Jesus did not teach that we are born lost in sin, he taught the exact opposite.

If you want to believe Augustine and Calvin, that is your right and your choice. I will believe what Jesus taught. That is all there is to it.

Read John 10:27-30, and also the first part of the chapter where Christ tells us that he is the Good Shepherd. Jesus never loses his sheep! Never! None of them perish. None of them get lost. None of them ever lose their salvation. That is an impossibility.
You have Christ contradiction himself.
Sheep may go astray as they naturally are prone to do.
But the shepherd makes sure that they don't get "lost."
"Astray" is different than lost. They return to the Shepherd not because they were lost, but because they had gone astray, as 1Pet.2:25 teaches.

 

[Winman]

Read John 10:27-30, and also the first part of the chapter where Christ tells us that he is the Good Shepherd. Jesus never loses his sheep! Never! None of them perish. None of them get lost. None of them ever lose their salvation. That is an impossibility.
You have Christ contradiction himself.
Sheep may go astray as they naturally are prone to do.
But the shepherd makes sure that they don't get "lost."
"Astray" is different than lost. They return to the Shepherd not because they were lost, but because they had gone astray, as 1Pet.2:25 teaches.

I agree 100% that Jesus never loses one of his sheep, but Jesus is not speaking of a backslidden Christian in Luke 15. He calls this lost sheep a "sinner". He is speaking of a person dead in sin. He outright says the prodigal son was both "dead" and "lost", not backslidden.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

The scriptures do not call a believer a "sinner" they call a believer a "righteous" person. The scriptures never say a believer is either "dead" or "lost".

The lost sheep, the lost silver piece, and the prodigal son represent a lost sinner. None were lost at first, but all became lost and dead. These parables are not describing a backslider, they are describing a person who is lost and dead in sin that repents. And when they do, Jesus twice said they are alive AGAIN, which shows no person is born dead in sin.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

 

[DHK]

I agree 100% that Jesus never loses one of his sheep, but Jesus is not speaking of a backslidden Christian in Luke 15. He calls this lost sheep a "sinner". He is speaking of a person dead in sin. He outright says the prodigal son was both "dead" and "lost", not backslidden.

And so? I also am a sinner. Aren't you?

Naught have I gotten, but what I've received.
Grace has bestowed it since I have believed.
Boasting excluded, pride I abase.
I am only a sinner saved by grace.

Sheep are not lost. Look again at John 10 and at 1Pet.2:25.

Luk 15:7

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Same old; same old. I keep explaining the same passages to you but you won't believe. Words are defined according to their context, not isolating them.

Luk 15:10

Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

And your point is?

Luk 15:24

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

He was a son and still is a son. Sons sin. Those that are not sons are never given their father's inheritance.
We are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.

Luk 15:32

It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

So the son had gone astray as the story tells. He was not killed was he.

The scriptures do not call a believer a "sinner" they call a believer a "righteous" person. The scriptures never say a believer is either "dead" or "lost".

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
But that doesn't apply to you, does it?

The lost sheep, the lost silver piece, and the prodigal son represent a lost sinner. None were lost at first, but all became lost and dead. These parables are not describing a backslider, they are describing a person who is lost and dead in sin that repents. And when they do, Jesus twice said they are alive AGAIN, which shows no person is born dead in sin.

Like Origen and Augustine, you can make the Scripture say whatever you want. You have a habit of doing that. That is why you don't accept the doctrine of the depravity of man. You just twist the Scriptures to your own liking.

Luk 15:32

It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Is your theology that one must be born again and again and again?
He was already son!
How many times does a son have to be born to be a son?

 

[Winman]

And so? I also am a sinner. Aren't you?

Naught have I gotten, but what I've received.
Grace has bestowed it since I have believed.
Boasting excluded, pride I abase.
I am only a sinner saved by grace.

Of course believers continue to sin until we die, but the scriptures never call believers "sinners" and you KNOW that. Why are you playing games, you know this as well as I do. The scriptures never call believers "dead" or "lost" either. You also know that.

Sheep are not lost. Look again at John 10 and at 1Pet.2:25.

Sheep can refer to persons who are lost at the moment, but will be saved in the future.

Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus was speaking of Gentiles who would be saved in the future here. Jesus in his foreknowledge knows from the beginning who will believe and who will not (John 6:64). So Jesus can call people his sheep who are not yet his sheep, but will be in the future.

Same old; same old. I keep explaining the same passages to you but you won't believe. Words are defined according to their context, not isolating them.

And I could say the same to you. Jesus called these persons "sinners", so he is not speaking of a backslidden person. Jesus also spoke about 99 just persons who need no repentance. It is you that ignores Jesus's words, not me.

And your point is?
He was a son and still is a son. Sons sin. Those that are not sons are never given their father's inheritance.
We are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
So the son had gone astray as the story tells. He was not killed was he.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
But that doesn't apply to you, does it?
Like Origen and Augustine, you can make the Scripture say whatever you want. You have a habit of doing that. That is why you don't accept the doctrine of the depravity of man. You just twist the Scriptures to your own liking.
Is your theology that one must be born again and again and again?
He was already son!
How many times does a son have to be born to be a son?

I am not twisting scripture at all. It was Jesus who spoke of 99 just persons who never went astray and need no repentance. If Original Sin is true, no such persons could exist.

It is Jesus who said the prodigal son was alive again. If OS is true, no person could ever be said to be alive again.

It is Jesus who spoke of the elder son who never transgressed his fathers commandment at any time. If OS is true, no such person could exist.

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[DHK]

Of course believers continue to sin until we die, but the scriptures never call believers "sinners" and you KNOW that. Why are you playing games, you know this as well as I do. The scriptures never call believers "dead" or "lost" either. You also know that.

First "lost" and "astray" are often used interchangeably, as they are in 1Pet.2:25, and in some of these parables. So you are wrong.
Secondly believers are often referred to as sinners.
Romans 3:23 refers to us as much as it does to anyone else. Or have you never sinned. Take a look at 1John 1:8,10 also.

Sheep can refer to persons who are lost at the moment, but will be saved in the future.

Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus wasn't speaking of the future.

Jesus was speaking of Gentiles who would be saved in the future here. Jesus in his foreknowledge knows from the beginning who will believe and who will not (John 6:64). So Jesus can call people his sheep who are not yet his sheep, but will be in the future.

You are mixing up parables and scripture. He was speaking of the present in the parable. The parable had nothing to do with the future, and nothing to do with the Gentiles.

And I could say the same to you. Jesus called these persons "sinners", so he is not speaking of a backslidden person. Jesus also spoke about 99 just persons who need no repentance. It is you that ignores Jesus's words, not me.

He was speaking to the Jews, those that should have been his own. They were his own kinsman after the flesh. However, they were sheep, representative of the saved. We are all sinners. Some are sinners saved by grace; some are lost sinners.
You still ignore the context of "99 just persons who need no repentance." I explain it to you and you just ignore it. Why should I even continue this any longer?

I am not twisting scripture at all. It was Jesus who spoke of 99 just persons who never went astray and need no repentance. If Original Sin is true, no such persons could exist.

You have never heard of sarcasm?

It is Jesus who said the prodigal son was alive again. If OS is true, no person could ever be said to be alive again.

First, the parable is not speaking of OS. So, why bring it up?
Second, if I grant you the possibility that one of the two may be unsaved, it would not be the prodigal, for he repented. The unsaved would be the elder, for he did not repent but remained in his hypocritical, Pharasaical self-righteous ways. That would be the person who was not saved in the parable, if it was demonstrating an unsaved person.

It is Jesus who spoke of the elder son who never transgressed his fathers commandment at any time. If OS is true, no such person could exist.

The elder son said that about himself.
He transgressed in his attitude toward his father.
He transgressed in his attitude toward his brother.
He transgressed in his own selfishness.
He transgressed in his own self-pity and self-centeredness.
He never repented at any time in his life; and therefore was a lost sinner.
That is IF we take the position that he, even as a son, could be lost.

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree 100% that Jesus never loses one of his sheep, but Jesus is not speaking of a backslidden Christian in Luke 15. He calls this lost sheep a "sinner". He is speaking of a person dead in sin. He outright says the prodigal son was both "dead" and "lost", not backslidden.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

The scriptures do not call a believer a "sinner" they call a believer a "righteous" person. The scriptures never say a believer is either "dead" or "lost".

The lost sheep, the lost silver piece, and the prodigal son represent a lost sinner. None were lost at first, but all became lost and dead. These parables are not describing a backslider, they are describing a person who is lost and dead in sin that repents. And when they do, Jesus twice said they are alive AGAIN, which shows no person is born dead in sin.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

never use parables to prove main doctrines, they were given by the Lord to emphasis a main point, use the Epistles to get your theology!

truth is that we are born estranged from the womb, that we are born in rebellion/enemies of God...

Do you still think Jesus was JUST same as we are, that He was as everyone else, or that we are all born sinless state as he was?

 

[Winman]

never use parables to prove main doctrines, they were given by the Lord to emphasis a main point, use the Epistles to get your theology!

truth is that we are born estranged from the womb, that we are born in rebellion/enemies of God...

Do you still think Jesus was JUST same as we are, that He was as everyone else, or that we are all born sinless state as he was?

Give me a break, this coming from Calvinists who use scripture such as Psa 58:3 which is OBVIOUS hyperbole to teach Original Sin, what a laugh. Why don't you follow your own advice. :thumbs:

The difference is, all parables express a spiritual truth. In the parable of the marriage in Matthew 22, the king represents God, his son represents Jesus. Those first invited represent the Jews who rejected Jesus, so God turned to the Gentiles represented by the people out in the highways. So, the parable is accurate.

In Luke 15 the sheep, the silver coin, and the prodigal represents a sinner who is lost in sin that repents.

But the 99 sheep who never went astray and need no repentance, the 9 silver pieces that were never lost, and the elder son who never transgressed his father''s commandment at any time CANNOT represent the Pharisees, as Jesus always said the Pharisees were sinners and children of hell.

In Matthew 18 Jesus tells the same parable about the 99 sheep who never went astray and identifies these persons as little children.

Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

As you see, it is not unreasonable for me to interpret the 99 sheep who need no repentance in Luke 15 as little children, because in Matthew 18 Jesus tells the same parable and directly identifies the 99 sheep as little children.

Compare Mat 18:13 to Luke 15:7;

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

As you see, they are the same, they both speak of 99 persons who never went astray in sin and need no repentance. In Matthew 18 we KNOW Jesus is speaking of little children.

The honest reader will see who is interpreting scripture honestly and correctly.

 

[DHK]

The honest reader will see who is interpreting scripture honestly and correctly.

Yes he will, and you are not being honest about it.

 

[evangelist-7]

JOHN 1:
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God,
to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of God.

Those who believe do so NOT of their own doing, but of God's doing!
.