manifestation vs gift

[John of Japan]

Pointing out the false does not disprove the true!
Satan is really working overtime trying to disprove God's word on this and has kept us in the dark for a long time because of our teachers/seminaries have passed down wrong theology.

Makes me wonder...if satan is out to keep the confusion and debates going..what is his motives?

Pagans in the early centuries, pagans nowadays, Gnostics, possibly Sufis, heretical Charismatics who use means to start up their tongues--all of these speak in tongues and don't know what they are saying. And you speak in tongues and don't know what you are saying. And the only thing you can give me for the difference is that you are manifesting the Spirit, something I have to take on faith because you can't prove it. You have certainly not convinced me with anything you've said.

I don't think you will try, but prove to me that your tongues are a genuine language and I'll believe you. Here's a method: record a sample of your tongues, then do phonetic research. If yours is a genuine language that you simply don't know, there will phonemes (basic sounds) and morphemes (sounds with meaning) in it that we don't have in English. If there are no such sounds, yours is not a genuine language. For example, Japanese has a "tsu" phoneme that we don't have in English. And they have a phoneme between L & R that is not either one.

If you have such sounds in your tongues, sounds we don't have in English, you might be speaking a genuine foreign language. But linguists have researched Charismatic tongues and found them to be not a language, but really just babble. I doubt if your version is different. But it would be easy to prove.

William Samarin researched modern tongues extensively, finding that they had no syntax or semantics, that they were "characterized by strings of usually simple syllables that are not matched systematically with any semantic system" (The New Charismatics, by Richard Quebedeaux, p. 202).

Wayne Oates, in "A Socio-Psychological Study of Glossalalia" (in Tongue Speaking in Biblical, Historical and Psychological Perspective), concluded that "Distortions of speech characteristic of early childhood are submerged as a child matures, but these distortions reappear in glossalalia when an individual tries to verbalize long-repressed religious convictions for the first time; he reverts to an early stage of communicative development" (ibid, 201).

 

[John of Japan]

I know what the Bible says on the manifestation of the Spirit. This I have searched out myself..after praying to my Father for guidance. Yes, my search started in order to disprove that the Holy Spirit manifest himself today, because the Bible tells us to study to know how to defend what we believe. In this process...I came across the truth that I am sharing now concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit that was poured out on the Day of Pentecost to the church and is still operating today.

I am completely unconvinced that you did any deep, comprehensive study of the matter. I think your study was shallow. I don't say this lightly. But in your this thread you were so shallow as to say that "gifts" in 1 Cor. 12 was in italics, when it is only true in one and not so in five cases.

I am still Baptist because they have more truth than not...but in some Baptist churches they have gone way off in some areas as well.

Fine. I challenge you to tell me where some Baptist churches have gone off. I don't think you know.

I have never said that we are incarnated like Christ! We are born of God!

I never said you believed it. You said you disagreed with it and I believe you. But why don't you oppose this heretical doctrine instead of simply disagreeing?

I can not condemn what I do not understand! In the past I condemned the manifestation of the Holy Spirit...later had to repent of it! Just because I do not condemn something does not mean I agree with it! I JUST DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO COMMENT EITHER WAY.

This doesn't ring true. You said at one point you have been in Baptist churches for 40 years. Yet now you say you don't know enough about the incarnation to oppose false doctrine on it. Either your baptist churches have been pathetically poor at teaching fundamental, foundational doctrine, or...?

 

[awaken]

Pagans in the early centuries, pagans nowadays, Gnostics, possibly Sufis, heretical Charismatics who use means to start up their tongues--all of these speak in tongues and don't know what they are saying. And you speak in tongues and don't know what you are saying. And the only thing you can give me for the difference is that you are manifesting the Spirit, something I have to take on faith because you can't prove it. You have certainly not convinced me with anything you've said.

I don't think you will try, but prove to me that your tongues are a genuine language and I'll believe you. Here's a method: record a sample of your tongues, then do phonetic research. If yours is a genuine language that you simply don't know, there will phonemes (basic sounds) and morphemes (sounds with meaning) in it that we don't have in English. If there are no such sounds, yours is not a genuine language. For example, Japanese has a "tsu" phoneme that we don't have in English. And they have a phoneme between L & R that is not either one.

If you have such sounds in your tongues, sounds we don't have in English, you might be speaking a genuine foreign language. But linguists have researched Charismatic tongues and found them to be not a language, but really just babble. I doubt if your version is different. But it would be easy to prove.

William Samarin researched modern tongues extensively, finding that they had no syntax or semantics, that they were "characterized by strings of usually simple syllables that are not matched systematically with any semantic system" (The New Charismatics, by Richard Quebedeaux, p. 202).

Wayne Oates, in "A Socio-Psychological Study of Glossalalia" (in Tongue Speaking in Biblical, Historical and Psychological Perspective), concluded that "Distortions of speech characteristic of early childhood are submerged as a child matures, but these distortions reappear in glossalalia when an individual tries to verbalize long-repressed religious convictions for the first time; he reverts to an early stage of communicative development" (ibid, 201).

Let me get this straight...
You want me to prove that tongues that I speak is genuine tongues and then you will believe that tongues really exist...hahahahaha :laugh:

I am sorry that just made me laugh!

 

[awaken]

I am completely unconvinced that you did any deep, comprehensive study of the matter. I think your study was shallow. I don't say this lightly. But in your this thread you were so shallow as to say that "gifts" in 1 Cor. 12 was in italics, when it is only true in one and not so in five cases.
Fine. I challenge you to tell me where some Baptist churches have gone off. I don't think you know.
I never said you believed it. You said you disagreed with it and I believe you. But why don't you oppose this heretical doctrine instead of simply disagreeing?

Well, my study was deep enough to see the truth and my experience with my Lord, you or anyone elses unbelief will never take away!

This doesn't ring true. You said at one point you have been in Baptist churches for 40 years. Yet now you say you don't know enough about the incarnation to oppose false doctrine on it. Either your baptist churches have been pathetically poor at teaching fundamental, foundational doctrine, or...?

Correction over 50 years! When I realized that I was taught wrong concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit I started over in my studing of all doctrine. So until I study out a certain topic...I will not confront it. Notice that I also do not engage in the debate of election of believers! I also stay away from when the rapture will take place...So say what you want! Some topics I just chose not to engage in!

 

[DHK]

Let me get this straight...
You want me to prove that tongues that I speak is genuine tongues and then you will believe that tongues really exist...hahahahaha :laugh:

I am sorry that just made me laugh!

This is what your testimony sounds like:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]My denomination taught that speaking in tongues meant speaking in other known languages I had never learned, but after praying for God to reveal full truth, I discovered that the definition my denomination taught, though certainly ONE description of speaking in tongues, does NOT explain the majority of the Biblical references to speaking in tongues!

I began to pray that if there was some gift from God that I didn't have -- some gift that would enrich my walk with God -- that I would receive it. Then one day it happened. I was sitting in my living room in the wee hours of the morning, seeking God, and I felt these sounds -- syllables and words -- just bubble up from inside.

I used the gift extensively for a couple of days, then my dad died quite suddenly, and the archenemy tried to convince me that this had something to do with praying in tongues. Though I didn't really believe him, this, combined with 35 years of denominational brainwashing made me began to doubt that the gift was from God. After all, the devil can imitate spiritual gifts, and since I didn't understand what I was saying, I felt out of control, vulnerable.

This went on for a couple of years, but during this time, God was working on me. He kept sending me messages like:

"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?" Matt 7:9-10

http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/speaking_in_tongues/how.html

Note: "[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]I felt these sounds -- syllables and words -- just bubble up from inside."[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]
--There is no place in the Bible which teaches this. It is confusion, and chaos. God is a God of order, not of confusion. He communicates in a way that we understand, not in a way that we don't understand. A mixture of sounds and syllables run together comes from paganism. It is ecstatic speech, not a language such as was spoken in Biblical times, the gift of tongues or languages.

If you really had the gift you would know the language you speak in and be able to identify it. You would understand what you are saying. You would be able to think in it.
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[John of Japan]

Let me get this straight...
You want me to prove that tongues that I speak is genuine tongues and then you will believe that tongues really exist...hahahahaha :laugh:

I am sorry that just made me laugh!

And once again you are twisting my words. I did not say that. I said prove that your tongues are a genuine language and I will believe you in that one thing.

So then, "the conclusion of the matter" is that you believe your tongues are the Biblical version, but you cannot prove it spiritually, linguistically or any other way, is that correct?

 

[John of Japan]

Well, my study was deep enough to see the truth and my experience with my Lord, you or anyone elses unbelief will never take away!

Oh, I know I'll never convince you. My purpose in opposing you on the BB is so that others will not be led astray. (And I believe in the Bible and my Lord Jesus Christ with all of my heart. I just don't believe you--and that is what you are calling my "unbelief."

Correction over 50 years! When I realized that I was taught wrong concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit I started over in my studing of all doctrine. So until I study out a certain topic...I will not confront it. Notice that I also do not engage in the debate of election of believers! I also stay away from when the rapture will take place...So say what you want! Some topics I just chose not to engage in!

And that includes the incarnation of Jesus Christ, is that correct? (I don't want to misrepresent you.)

 

[DHK]

You are assuming here with no scripture proof! Because NOWHERE in the scriptures does it say it was given to preach the gospel. Paul told us what it was..praying in tongues/praying in the spirit. Acts accounts shows that they were magnifying God/praising God! They were not addressing the people!

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that tongues is a prayer language. That is your assumption. And your so-called proof is from a verse where Paul is rebuking the use of tongues. How ironic!
In Acts 2, they "called out" (kalew) the praises of God (proclaimed, preached, said, etc.) It is as close to preaching as one can get. They called out God's praises in a loud voice--no microphone, no loud speaker, no megaphone, nothing; but it had to reach a crowd larger than 100,000 people! They weren't talking in a whisper were they? It is as close to preaching as one can get.

In Acts 19:6 they spoke in tongues and prophesied. Here is what Matthew Poole says about tongues in this passage:

The Holy Ghost came on them; in those extraordinary gifts of tongues, &c., whereby they were fitted to preach the gospel unto any nation or people unto whom they should be sent.

Commentator after commentator say similar things. The reason? Your position was unknown until 1905. You take 19 centuries of Christian scholarship and throw it out the window.

Show me in scripture! Nowhere does it say it was used for preaching.

I just did. I keep telling you that that is the very reason why it was given to Paul--to edify believers in the different churches he went to of different language groups. Thus he says: "I thank God that I speak in languages more than you all."

THINK!! Only believers can manifest Holy Spirit! You are saying if someone has a gift of different languages that they can manifest HS.

God gave the ability to speak other languages to believers to do His work.
If he did that today, then I would not have to spend years of my life studying languages. You don't know how many times I have wished that I had that gift just to speak another language without having to study it. But I don't have it. I must spend hours of hard work studying foreign languages. It isn't easy, but it must be done.

Unbelievers have the ability to speak different languages....Go back to the drawing board and look up praying in the spirit/tongues!

No unbeliever was ever given that supernatural ability. Study your Bible.

They were given to the church/believers! They were a manifestation of the Holy Spirit! They were given to edify self and the congregation when interpreted!

Your esoteric meaning of "manifestation" doesn't work with me.
The gifts of the Spirit were given to early first century believers during the Apostolic Age.
They were never given to edify oneself. That is a selfish use of a gift given to the church.
All the gifts were given to the church to be used in the church. The entire letter was written to the church at Corinth.

Again...unbelilevers can translate! So how is that a manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

Not true. It was a supernatural gift. He was writing to Corinth. Corinth was a port city on a well-known trade route that attracted all kinds of foreigners. Thus the need of tongues may have been greater there than at other places, as far as reaching others who didn't understand the local language. But that wasn't the only purpose of tongues. It was only one purpose.

Do you even know what that is talking about?

Yes. Paul set down very strict rules for any person having a desire to speak in tongues. Apparently you don't know what those rules are, and don't care about them either.
1. One person at a time.
2. No more than two or three, and then they must be in order, turn by turn.
3. If there is no interpreter let them keep silence in the church.
As well as all of the other rules Paul set down. You don't like them.

No, I was plain in my first post... the meaning has not changed. I can't believe you struggle so much with that word and it's meaning.

I don't have any struggles at all.
You attach some meaningless esoteric definition to "manifestation" but in your own words are unable to give a cogent coherent definition.

How can you understand this...when you don't even believe it is speaking to God?

Speak to God. That is called prayer. Take a look in First Samuel chapter one and learn from Hannah. Pray in your own language. To pray in an unknown language that you don't understand is not prayer.

Paul spoke in tongues because it is PRAYING TO GOD/SPEAKING TO GOD!!

Paul spoke in another language, a language that God miraculously gave to him. The only example of praying in that language was publicly in church, with interpretation, so that the church would know when to say "amen."

No, it did not cease and you have failed to prove it!

1Cor.13:8 says otherwise.

You have already admitted it was praying in another post..are you now changing your theory?

I have never admitted to praying without understanding. No such thing is ever encouraged in the Bible, but rather condemned.

Well, I guess that is what is good about theories you can change them. The word of God on the other hand is sound and does not change.

That is an admission that you should change?

I defined it in the first post...you are the only one that seems to have a problem understanding it! Praying in the spirit is the same as praying in tongues...Paul said..he was inspired by God to write it...therefore I believe Paul over you!

You don't understand Paul. You don't understand manifestation. You don't understand "the gift of tongues." Your complete understanding of all the gifts is totally lacking.

 

[awaken]

This is what your testimony sounds like:

http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/speaking_in_tongues/how.html

Note: "[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]I felt these sounds -- syllables and words -- just bubble up from inside."[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]
--There is no place in the Bible which teaches this. It is confusion, and chaos. God is a God of order, not of confusion. He communicates in a way that we understand, not in a way that we don't understand. A mixture of sounds and syllables run together comes from paganism. It is ecstatic speech, not a language such as was spoken in Biblical times, the gift of tongues or languages.

If you really had the gift you would know the language you speak in and be able to identify it. You would understand what you are saying. You would be able to think in it.
[/FONT][/FONT]

How many languages in the world???
Still can not find that scripture, can you? Because it is not in there! NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THE ONE SPEAKING KNOWS THE LANGUAGE THEY ARE SPEAKING!

 

[awaken]

And once again you are twisting my words. I did not say that. I said prove that your tongues are a genuine language and I will believe you in that one thing.

So then, "the conclusion of the matter" is that you believe your tongues are the Biblical version, but you cannot prove it spiritually, linguistically or any other way, is that correct?

You know why this is so funny! Even if I sent you the language I speak and it is proven that it is a language..then what next?

 

[awaken]

Oh, I know I'll never convince you. My purpose in opposing you on the BB is so that others will not be led astray. (And I believe in the Bible and my Lord Jesus Christ with all of my heart. I just don't believe you--and that is what you are calling my "unbelief."

And that includes the incarnation of Jesus Christ, is that correct? (I don't want to misrepresent you.)

You have yet to prove that the Holy Spirit does not manifest himself today as He says he can in 1 Cor. 12-14!

Did I not state my view on that! Go back and read the threads again!!

 

[John of Japan]

You know why this is so funny! Even if I sent you the language I speak and it is proven that it is a language..then what next?

Well, duh. :tongue3: Since I would be the one proving it (since I'm a linguist), I would have to believe my own proof, wouldn't I?

The techniques of researching an unknown language were developed many years ago by missionaries translating the Bible into unknown languages, and polished in the 20th century by Wycliffe, SIL (Summer Institute of Linguistics), and other groups. I would (1) list the phonemes; (2) try to discover morphemes among the phonemes; (3) look for syntax markers (syntax is sentence structure; (4) look for semantic markers, or common words such as "and"; and so forth. I would be happy as a linguist to honestly investigate a lengthy session of tongues by you that is recorded and then transcribed.

But I have to warn you that to my knowledge, every single time that linguists have examined tongues, the tongues have been proven to be babble, and not a true language. William Samarin did extensive research proving tongues had no syntax (sentence structure) or semantics (word meanings), described in his book Tongues of Men and Angels: The Religious Language of Pentecostalism. Wayne Oates said that tongues are the language of early childhood ("A Socio-Psychological Study of Glossolalia" in Tongues Speaking in Biblical, Historical, and Psychological Perspective, by Stagg, Hinson and Oates). And so forth.

Again, according to Dr. E. Mansell Pattison, tongues are similar to aphasic speech, the decomposition of speech due to a stroke, etc. ("Speaking in Tongues and About Tongues," in Christian Standard, 2/15/64 (cited in MacArthur, 296). This means tongues don't communicate, they don't make sense. They are not a language.

 

[John of Japan]

You have yet to prove that the Holy Spirit does not manifest himself today as He says he can in 1 Cor. 12-14!

Did I not state my view on that! Go back and read the threads again!!

I've never said He does not manifest Himself today. I've even said the opposite, though not in those exact words. So you are twisting my words again. Or perhaps you are mixing me up with someone else. And you are clueless as to what my real position is, though I've referred to various parts of it at times during our discussions.

If you were sharp, you would have a pretty good idea by now of what I believe about the manifestation of the Spirit, but you are so full of your own beliefs you have no time for anyone for anyone with an opposing view. So you really don't know how I interpret the manifestation of the Spirit. You simply dismiss what I say as unbelief, even before I've said it.

Let me tell you, if I were in unbelief about the Holy Spirit, would I have prayed and read the Scripture for many hours 30 years ago in a park in Yokohama seeking the truth about the blessed Spirit of God? (You are really late in your life seeking the truth about the Holy Spirit, so don't even talk to me about it. I'm not impressed.) But you are full of your interpretation, gained late in life from Charismatics, and don't want to listen to anyone else who might have a differing view.

You've twisted my words and insulted me over and over (I'm in unbelief, I haven't deeply studied the Scriptures, the problems causesd by Charismatics in my church were from Satan not the Charismatics, etc.). Do you think that speaks well for your beliefs? Do you think that draws people to your beliefs? I think not.

 

[awaken]

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that tongues is a prayer language. That is your assumption. And your so-called proof is from a verse where Paul is rebuking the use of tongues. How ironic!

My proof is still in scriptures and not an assumption! You have to ignore Paul in 1 Cor. 14:14-15 to believe the way you do..maybe if I type it enough you will memorize it! " For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with understanding also:" two ways of praying!

In Acts 2, they "called out" (kalew) the praises of God (proclaimed, preached, said, etc.) It is as close to preaching as one can get. They called out God's praises in a loud voice--no microphone, no loud speaker, no megaphone, nothing; but it had to reach a crowd larger than 100,000 people! They weren't talking in a whisper were they? It is as close to preaching as one can get.

First off I could not find that word (kalew)anywhere in Acts 2..verse please!
Funny if they were preaching, why did Peter have to preach in verse 14? Who were they preaching to in Acts 10, themselves? No, they were not preaching..
"Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." (Psalms 40:5)

"Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds! So great is your power that your enemies cringe before you."" (Psalms 66:3)
Why were the disciples praising God in tongues? Because this is one of the primary purposes for tongues:
"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)

In Acts 19:6 they spoke in tongues and prophesied. Here is what Matthew Poole says about tongues in this passage:

Commentator after commentator say similar things. The reason? Your position was unknown until 1905. You take 19 centuries of Christian scholarship and throw it out the window.

If you would stick to the Bible to prove your stand..it would be more convincing!

I just did. I keep telling you that that is the very reason why it was given to Paul--to edify believers in the different churches he went to of different language groups. Thus he says: "I thank God that I speak in languages more than you all."

Show me a scipture! He could thank God he prays in tongues more because he prays in the spirit more! I can show you in scripture where praying in the spirit edifies self!! But you can not show me one scripture where Paul preached in tongues! NOWHERE!

God gave the ability to speak other languages to believers to do His work.

Where does it say that? Tongues were a manifestation of the Holy Spirit just like the rest in the list in1 Cor. 12. They were given to the church to profit the church/body.

If he did that today, then I would not have to spend years of my life studying languages. You don't know how many times I have wished that I had that gift just to speak another language without having to study it. But I don't have it. I must spend hours of hard work studying foreign languages. It isn't easy, but it must be done.

And so did they back then..because tongues in not a learned language for the purpose of spreading the gospel/preaching.

No unbeliever was ever given that supernatural ability. Study your Bible.

exactly!! But unbelievers could study and learn other languages.

Your esoteric meaning of "manifestation" doesn't work with me.
The gifts of the Spirit were given to early first century believers during the Apostolic Age.

Yet..you have no meaning to the word "manifestation." Think about why you have so much trouble with that word..that alone should be convicting to you. How does the Holy Spirit manifest himself in 1 Cor. 12 (keep it in context)? Even my grandchildren could get this! Chicken pox is manifested through us by a sore. We can not see chicken pox (the virus) until it is manifested.

They were never given to edify oneself. That is a selfish use of a gift given to the church.
All the gifts were given to the church to be used in the church. The entire letter was written to the church at Corinth.

I agree! But your reasoning is absurbed. You have already admitted it is prayer, yet you say we can not pray in private!!

Not true. It was a supernatural gift. He was writing to Corinth. Corinth was a port city on a well-known trade route that attracted all kinds of foreigners. Thus the need of tongues may have been greater there than at other places, as far as reaching others who didn't understand the local language. But that wasn't the only purpose of tongues. It was only one purpose.

So you are going to try to tell me today that unbelievers can not translate a language? You keep contradicting yourself! Yes! the manifestation of the Holy Spirit can only be done by bellievers because they are the only ones that have the HS to manifest. So this alone proves your theory wrong! Tongues were not given to preach the gospel!

Yes. Paul set down very strict rules for any person having a desire to speak in tongues. Apparently you don't know what those rules are, and don't care about them either.
1. One person at a time.
2. No more than two or three, and then they must be in order, turn by turn.
3. If there is no interpreter let them keep silence in the church.
As well as all of the other rules Paul set down. You don't like them.

Oh, I have respect for God's rules written through Paul. Paul even took his own advice and said in church he keeps silence when it comes to him praying in the spirit/tongues. He would rather speak in a language that all understood. So if Paul did not speakin tongues/pray in the spirit in church, where did he speak/pray? Don't tell me he preached in mission trips..because that would be in church. He said he would rather not pray in tongues in church, read the passage closer!

I don't have any struggles at all.
You attach some meaningless esoteric definition to "manifestation" but in your own words are unable to give a cogent coherent definition.

Exactly what part of the meaning are you struggling with? The not seeing the Holy Spirit? The nine ways he is manifested?

Speak to God. That is called prayer. Take a look in First Samuel chapter one and learn from Hannah. Pray in your own language. To pray in an unknown language that you don't understand is not prayer.

Yes! glad you see this.."speaking to God is prayer"...now look again at vs. 2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God:.." So again you help prove that speaking to God/speaking in tongues is prayer.

Paul spoke in another language, a language that God miraculously gave to him. The only example of praying in that language was publicly in church, with interpretation, so that the church would know when to say "amen."

But Paul himself said that he would rather speak in understanding in the church. If you could just see this...it would clear up your contradictions! Paul was disciplining them for praying to God/praying in tongues/praying in the spirit without an interpretation in the church. He was bringing order in the church. He was not forbidding tongues in private. Vs.28 is very clear that if you do not have an interpreter keep silent IN THE CHURCH, BUT You can pray in private to God!

1Cor.13:8 says otherwise.

That is future tense and it says when in the future that will happen! Face to face and I know as I am known. That has not happen yet! In the beginning of Cor. 1:7) it also says that Paul does not want them to come behind in NO gift, when?..waiting on the COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. He shall confim us until when (1:8) UNTO THE END, THAT WE MAY BE BLAMELESS IN THE DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. This is when the perfect comes! It is not the Bible (even though the Bible is perfect written word of God).

I have never admitted to praying without understanding. No such thing is ever encouraged in the Bible, but rather condemned.

You admitted that tongues was praying...go back and see for youself! Or if you are too lazy I will do it for you!

That is an admission that you should change?

No, I have not changed my stand...I stand on the truth in scriptures and not man made theories that change to suit them.

You don't understand Paul. You don't understand manifestation. You don't understand "the gift of tongues." Your complete understanding of all the gifts is totally lacking.

Not true! I have proven in scriptures what I believe and there are no contradiction. You are the one that stuggles with those!

 

[awaken]

I've never said He does not manifest Himself today. I've even said the opposite, though not in those exact words. So you are twisting my words again. Or perhaps you are mixing me up with someone else. And you are clueless as to what my real position is, though I've referred to various parts of it at times during our discussions.

If you were sharp, you would have a pretty good idea by now of what I believe about the manifestation of the Spirit, but you are so full of your own beliefs you have no time for anyone for anyone with an opposing view. So you really don't know how I interpret the manifestation of the Spirit. You simply dismiss what I say as unbelief, even before I've said it.

Let me tell you, if I were in unbelief about the Holy Spirit, would I have prayed and read the Scripture for many hours 30 years ago in a park in Yokohama seeking the truth about the blessed Spirit of God? (You are really late in your life seeking the truth about the Holy Spirit, so don't even talk to me about it. I'm not impressed.) But you are full of your interpretation, gained late in life from Charismatics, and don't want to listen to anyone else who might have a differing view.

You keep assuming that I got this from charismatics. I have shown you nothing but the word of God! THe truth is there, it does not matter how old you are when you come across it! THe truth will set you free! You look over many things I say as well! Because I went in search of truth early in my teens, but I went to man for answers! Maybe it took me longer, but I am now living and experiencing what He said I could!
If you would stick to scriptures and lay off me (personally) we might get somewhere in this debate.

You've twisted my words and insulted me over and over (I'm in unbelief, I haven't deeply studied the Scriptures, the problems causesd by Charismatics in my church were from Satan not the Charismatics, etc.). Do you think that speaks well for your beliefs? Do you think that draws people to your beliefs? I think not.

My beliefs are backed up in scripture! I have shown scripture! The only time I get personal is when I am having to defend myself from others.

 

[awaken]

Well, duh. :tongue3: Since I would be the one proving it (since I'm a linguist), I would have to believe my own proof, wouldn't I?

The techniques of researching an unknown language were developed many years ago by missionaries translating the Bible into unknown languages, and polished in the 20th century by Wycliffe, SIL (Summer Institute of Linguistics), and other groups. I would (1) list the phonemes; (2) try to discover morphemes among the phonemes; (3) look for syntax markers (syntax is sentence structure; (4) look for semantic markers, or common words such as "and"; and so forth. I would be happy as a linguist to honestly investigate a lengthy session of tongues by you that is recorded and then transcribed.

But I have to warn you that to my knowledge, every single time that linguists have examined tongues, the tongues have been proven to be babble, and not a true language. William Samarin did extensive research proving tongues had no syntax (sentence structure) or semantics (word meanings), described in his book Tongues of Men and Angels: The Religious Language of Pentecostalism. Wayne Oates said that tongues are the language of early childhood ("A Socio-Psychological Study of Glossolalia" in Tongues Speaking in Biblical, Historical, and Psychological Perspective, by Stagg, Hinson and Oates). And so forth.

Again, according to Dr. E. Mansell Pattison, tongues are similar to aphasic speech, the decomposition of speech due to a stroke, etc. ("Speaking in Tongues and About Tongues," in Christian Standard, 2/15/64 (cited in MacArthur, 296). This means tongues don't communicate, they don't make sense. They are not a language.

So you are going to take all these well educated people over what the Bible is clear about?
Look, John, even if I sent you a sample of the language the Holy Spirit choses to give me (which is different everytime I speak). Will not help you to believe, sorry! Faith comes without evidence. I did not have to have evidence to accept what God's word said about salvation. I was a child, but I knew enough to know that the Word alone spoke truth. I received my Savior, not by seeing him die and raise again..but because his word said it happened. I believed not by sight but by faith! By the hearing of the Word!

Again, lets say I do this, and you find out it is a true language...what will you do with that evidence?

 

[DHK]

How many languages in the world???
Still can not find that scripture, can you? Because it is not in there! NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THE ONE SPEAKING KNOWS THE LANGUAGE THEY ARE SPEAKING!

That is because you refuse to accept the definition of what the Biblical gift of languages is. It is a supernatural gift to speak in another language which the speaker previously did not know. Now understand this. In order to speak in that language one has to be able to know what they are saying. For example if one is standing in front of the congregation and they need to explain the meaning of the "new birth" and "regeneration." How is he going to do it? He needs to think in the language that God gave him. He needs to know what "new birth" is in this unknown language. He needs to know what "regeneration" is and know how to explain it in this unknown language. He needs to know the language. It is an unknown language given to him to teach the people. It edifies the people. The gift of interpretation was not for the speaker's understanding. How could that be so? He had to understand what he was saying.

Ask John. When he speaks in another language he has to be able to think in that language. He must be able to know the language well enough to express himself. That is what God gave as a supernatural gift.

The interpretation came for others, a mixed crowd perhaps, or into Hebrew for the Jews. It, after all was a sign to the Jews. If he went to Spain, and there was no one there but Spanish people, there would be no need of an interpreter. But that was not the case. He always spoke in the synagogues first, and thus there were Jews. He gave some interpretation for the Jews in order for them to know this was a sign to them.

But in this letter, it was specifically written to the Corinthians. They probably always had visitors of another nation because they were on a major trade route. Thus the necessity of speaking in tongues. It was a miraculous gift where one could speak, and thus think in the language that they were given.

 

[awaken]

That is because you refuse to accept the definition of what the Biblical gift of languages is. It is a supernatural gift to speak in another language which the speaker previously did not know. Now understand this. In order to speak in that language one has to be able to know what they are saying. For example if one is standing in front of the congregation and they need to explain the meaning of the "new birth" and "regeneration." How is he going to do it? He needs to think in the language that God gave him. He needs to know what "new birth" is in this unknown language. He needs to know what "regeneration" is and know how to explain it in this unknown language. He needs to know the language. It is an unknown language given to him to teach the people. It edifies the people. The gift of interpretation was not for the speaker's understanding. How could that be so? He had to understand what he was saying.

No, if you will look at verse closer it says that the one speaking should pray that he may interpret. If he has to pray for the interpretation, then therefore he does not know what he is speaking. Vs. 2 tells us that when we speak in tongues NO MAN UNDERSTANDS without the interpetation. that includes the one speaking.

Ask John. When he speaks in another language he has to be able to think in that language. He must be able to know the language well enough to express himself. That is what God gave as a supernatural gift.

Really, now your saying this gift still exist in your definition? You keep going back and forth on this it seems. First you say it was done away with in the 1st century and now you say John has the supernatural gift...:BangHead:

The interpretation came for others, a mixed crowd perhaps, or into Hebrew for the Jews. It, after all was a sign to the Jews. If he went to Spain, and there was no one there but Spanish people, there would be no need of an interpreter. But that was not the case. He always spoke in the synagogues first, and thus there were Jews. He gave some interpretation for the Jews in order for them to know this was a sign to them.

Again, it is your own reasoning here...show me a scripture!!

But in this letter, it was specifically written to the Corinthians. They probably always had visitors of another nation because they were on a major trade route. Thus the necessity of speaking in tongues. It was a miraculous gift where one could speak, and thus think in the language that they were given.

Again, you are assuming to support your theory.

I also see you ignored the rest of the post...

 

[plain_n_simple]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItLIUWPujg8&feature=related

Here is a man operating in the gifts, or you can call him simply "true believer" according to Mark 16. Believe it or not, the city of Redding CA has a 90% cancer cured rate! Praise God!

 

[DHK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItLIUWPujg8&feature=related

Here is a man operating in the gifts, or you can call him simply "true believer" according to Mark 16. Believe it or not, the city of Redding CA has a 90% cancer cured rate! Praise God!

Beware of false teachers. You shall know them by their fruits. The fruit in the verse means doctrine. Here is some of his questionable doctrine:

VIOLENCE AND FAITH​

“Until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.”
Two blind men who sat by the road called out to Jesus. People told them to be quiet. That only hardened their determination. They became more desperate and cried out all the louder. He called them forth and healed them saying, “The kingdom has come near you.” He attributed their miracle to their faith.
A woman who had hemorrhaged for 12 years pressed through a crowd. When she was finally able to touch the garment of Jesus, she was healed. He attributed it to her faith.
The stories of this kind are many, all with similar endings—they were healed or delivered because of their faith. Faith may quietly press in, or it may cry out very loudly, but it is always violent in the spirit world. It grabs hold of an invisible reality and won’t let go. Taking the Kingdom by faith is the violent act that is necessary to come into what God has made available.

FAITH EMPOWERS​

An automobile may have several hundred horsepower. But the car will go nowhere until the clutch is released, connecting the power contained in the running motor and transferring that power to the wheels. So it is with faith. We have all the power of heaven behind us. But it is our faith that connects what is available to the circumstances at hand. Faith takes what is available and makes it actual.
It’s not illegal to try to grow in faith. It’s not wrong to seek for signs and the increase of miracles. Those are all within the rights of the believer. But learning how to pray is the task at hand. It is the only thing the disciples asked Jesus to teach them. And so we will examine His Model Prayer for insights on His view of prayer and the release of His dominion.

4. Live in faith. Living by faith in my present assignment makes me ready for more. “Whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.” (2 Corinthians 4:4) Notice that the light of the gospel comes to the person who believes. Revelation comes to the one expressing faith! Live with the understanding that God has already willed to give you His mysteries (Matthew 13:11), and ask accordingly. Then thank Him in advance.

Revelation doesn't come to anyone. Revelation is finished.

“Is it Always God's will to heal someone?”
A.
How can God choose not to heal someone when He already purchased their healing? Was His blood enough for all sin, or just certain sins? Were the stripes He bore only for certain illnesses, or certain seasons of time? When He bore stripes in His body He made a payment for our miracle. He already decided to heal. You can't decide not to buy something after you've already bought it.

There are no deficiencies on His end - neither the covenant is deficient, nor His compassion or promises. All lack is on our end of the equation. The only time someone wasn't healed in the Bible (gospels) is when the disciples prayed for them. For example, Mark 9 when they prayed for the tormented child. They did not have breakthrough. But then, Jesus came and brought healing and deliverance to the child.

Jesus Christ is perfect theology - He is the will of God. We can't lower the standard of scripture to our level of experience . . . or in most cases, inexperience. It's a very uncomfortable realization - not everyone can handle it. Most create doctrine that you can't find in the person of Jesus. He is the will of God.

This kind of teaching is totally unbiblical. It is also cruel in that it blames the sick for not having enough faith. In James 5, the prayer of faith, is the pastor's prayer. If the person doesn't get well because of a lack of faith then the faith would be on the part of the healer according to James 5.

This man is totally out to lunch.
Ask him if he will heal outside of his own environment.
Ask him if he will go to a hospital and heal all that are in a hospital, especially in the ER room. Let him prove his gift there.