manifestation vs gift

[plain_n_simple]

It is not for you

 

[awaken]

Beware of false teachers. You shall know them by their fruits. The fruit in the verse means doctrine. Here is some of his questionable doctrine:


Revelation doesn't come to anyone. Revelation is finished.




This kind of teaching is totally unbiblical. It is also cruel in that it blames the sick for not having enough faith. In James 5, the prayer of faith, is the pastor's prayer. If the person doesn't get well because of a lack of faith then the faith would be on the part of the healer according to James 5.

This man is totally out to lunch.
Ask him if he will heal outside of his own environment.
Ask him if he will go to a hospital and heal all that are in a hospital, especially in the ER room. Let him prove his gift there.

This is where my pastors daughter went and they laid hands on her and she recovered! She is now living a normal life her headaches are gone! She suffered for years...doctor after doctor..even surgery! Nothing helped! She even had to leave college.
So I guess by your post you are given credit to satan/falsehood for her healing?

 

[John of Japan]

So you are going to take all these well educated people over what the Bible is clear about?

In Acts 2, lost people heard the believers speak in their own languages. So lost people proved that the tongues were real. In modern times, linguists and other lost scholars have proved many times that various examples of tongues were not real languages. In my mind this is a good thing. Tongues speakers should be happy that the false is proven false.

By the standard of Acts 2, you should happily submit your tongues to lost people to be verified. I'm sure you don't trust me to examine your tongues. But you could go to a linguist at your local state university, which is bound to have a major in linguistics with linguistic scholars teaching the classes. When your tongues are then validated, hopefully, as real languages, wouldn't that be great? Do you have the courage to do this?

Look, John, even if I sent you a sample of the language the Holy Spirit choses to give me (which is different everytime I speak). Will not help you to believe, sorry! Faith comes without evidence. I did not have to have evidence to accept what God's word said about salvation. I was a child, but I knew enough to know that the Word alone spoke truth. I received my Savior, not by seeing him die and raise again..but because his word said it happened. I believed not by sight but by faith! By the hearing of the Word!

I hardly think your speaking in tongues compares to the salvation experience. Speaking in tongues was a sign to unbelievers. Salvation is how we become believers. Apples and oranges.

And again, the tongues in Acts 2 were verified by unbelievers. Will you attempt the same thing? It's a win-win situation. If your tongues are a real language you will be vindicated. If you learn that your tongues are not a real language, you will be led out of error.

Again, lets say I do this, and you find out it is a true language...what will you do with that evidence?

Tell you what. You go to a reputable linguist, get him to verify that your tongues are a real language like in Acts 2, and he writes me with the information about his research and verification, then I'll pray myself to speak in tongues just like you. Is that fair to you? The next move is yours.

 

[John of Japan]

You keep assuming that I got this from charismatics. I have shown you nothing but the word of God! THe truth is there, it does not matter how old you are when you come across it! THe truth will set you free! You look over many things I say as well! Because I went in search of truth early in my teens, but I went to man for answers! Maybe it took me longer, but I am now living and experiencing what He said I could!
If you would stick to scriptures and lay off me (personally) we might get somewhere in this debate.

You have touted your experience in seeking the truth about the Charismatic movement over and over on the BB. That makes it fair game for refutation. Don't get all defensive when someone mentions it. It is part and parcel of your argument.

I trust my experience far more than yours. My reason for sitting in a park in Yokohama for hours praying and reading Scripture, fighting off the mosquitos, was to be empowered by God to serve Him. Your self-proclaimed purpose was to win a debate with "full gospel" people, as you put it. Your motive was selfish--to win a debate. God doesn't bless selfish motives, and the Holy Spirit does not lead and teach us when our motives are selfish.

You say you studied the Bible about the Holy Spirit. Did you read and pray about and study every single passage on the Holy Spirit in the Bible? If not, your study was inferior.

My beliefs are backed up in scripture! I have shown scripture! The only time I get personal is when I am having to defend myself from others.

Baloney. You got personal with me by telling me that the problems with Charismatics in my church were Satan's fault and not the fault of tongues speakers. That makes me the agent of Satan by rejecting tongues. That's personal. And you accuse us non-charismatics of being unbelieving. That's personal. And you have over and over twisted my words. That's personal.

 

[John of Japan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItLIUWPujg8&feature=related

Here is a man operating in the gifts, or you can call him simply "true believer" according to Mark 16. Believe it or not, the city of Redding CA has a 90% cancer cured rate! Praise God!

This man said on Youtube, " “Did you know Jesus became a sinner for us and had to be born again.” (http://safeguardyoursoul.com/bill-johnson-false-teacher/) Do you agree with him? If not, how can you possibly recognize him as Spirit filled?

 

[plain_n_simple]

This is not for you, why should you bother? If you need to be right, ok John, I'll say you are right. You need to be happy buddy.

 

[John of Japan]

This is not for you, why should you bother? If you need to be right, ok John, I'll say you are right. You need to be happy buddy.

I don't need to be happy. I have the joy of the Lord, which is far better. If I wanted to be "happy" like most people think of "happy," I sure wouldn't have become a missionary to a Gospel-resistant country like Japan, much less anywhere else. :type:

But you didn't answer the question. Do you agree with your "Spirit filled" man on Youtube that Christ became a sinner?

 

[Yeshua1]

Beware of false teachers. You shall know them by their fruits. The fruit in the verse means doctrine. Here is some of his questionable doctrine:


Revelation doesn't come to anyone. Revelation is finished.




This kind of teaching is totally unbiblical. It is also cruel in that it blames the sick for not having enough faith. In James 5, the prayer of faith, is the pastor's prayer. If the person doesn't get well because of a lack of faith then the faith would be on the part of the healer according to James 5.

This man is totally out to lunch.
Ask him if he will heal outside of his own environment.
Ask him if he will go to a hospital and heal all that are in a hospital, especially in the ER room. Let him prove his gift there.

wasn't the acceptable rate of healing in the bible for those gifted to do such by God 100 %?

And isn't their view on what constitutes the real Gospel, per signs and wonders, actually perverts what it really is, and offers people a fake hope due to it being a deficeit Gospel actually?

 

[DHK]

It is not for you

Your right. The Lord is for me. I am content with the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word. He said beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. Beware of those who come to you as wolves in sheep's clothing.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is where I put that man.
His doctrine is heretical. Just because he can see healing doesn't mean it is from God. Those who don't know Christ can also heal. Those are the very words of Jesus. Beware of false prophets/false teachers.

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
--Jesus is not referring to good works here, for even Hindus and Muslims have good works. He is referring to doctrine. I know this man by his false doctrine. I have gone to his website. I have looked at his doctrine, and examined it according to the Word of God. It is not Biblical, if not anti-Biblical. He is wrong. He will stand in judgment of God and give account, a terrible account of the deception that he inflicts on others.

 

[DHK]

This is where my pastors daughter went and they laid hands on her and she recovered! She is now living a normal life her headaches are gone! She suffered for years...doctor after doctor..even surgery! Nothing helped! She even had to leave college.
So I guess by your post you are given credit to satan/falsehood for her healing?

If she got healed at such a meeting, then she got healed in spite of him; not because of him.

 

[awaken]

In Acts 2, lost people heard the believers speak in their own languages. So lost people proved that the tongues were real. In modern times, linguists and other lost scholars have proved many times that various examples of tongues were not real languages. In my mind this is a good thing. Tongues speakers should be happy that the false is proven false.

By the standard of Acts 2, you should happily submit your tongues to lost people to be verified. I'm sure you don't trust me to examine your tongues. But you could go to a linguist at your local state university, which is bound to have a major in linguistics with linguistic scholars teaching the classes. When your tongues are then validated, hopefully, as real languages, wouldn't that be great? Do you have the courage to do this?

# 1 I do not need to do this to comfim what I received by faith.
# 2 Lets say I do this and it proves to be a real language how will this evidence help you? Will you then believe that tongues are for today?

I hardly think your speaking in tongues compares to the salvation experience. Speaking in tongues was a sign to unbelievers. Salvation is how we become believers. Apples and oranges.

I sign to the unbelievers that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit is real...that is the sign!

And again, the tongues in Acts 2 were verified by unbelievers. Will you attempt the same thing? It's a win-win situation. If your tongues are a real language you will be vindicated. If you learn that your tongues are not a real language, you will be led out of error.

Tongues were verified by the preaching of the word. All the unbelievers were amazed and in wonder. It was the preaching of the word that verified what was going on. Remember Peter referred back to Joel to explain what they were hearing and seeing. That was the verification!

Tell you what. You go to a reputable linguist, get him to verify that your tongues are a real language like in Acts 2, and he writes me with the information about his research and verification, then I'll pray myself to speak in tongues just like you. Is that fair to you? The next move is yours.

So you still need evidence? I did not need evidence! I stepped out on faith and received just like Peter said we could. Faith is the substance of things hoped for...the EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN. So tell me how are you pleasing God? Because you are demanding evidence! I believed because his word said it!

Your wrong! It will not change your unbelief to get your information! I never prayed to receive tongues!! I do not think the Bible teaches you to pray for tongues. If so please show me the verse.

 

[DHK]

So you still need evidence? I did not need evidence! I stepped out on faith and received just like Peter said we could. Faith is the substance of things hoped for...the EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN. So tell me how are you pleasing God? Because you are demanding evidence! I believed because his word said it!

Yes, we always need evidence. Our faith is based on evidence, otherwise it is just blind faith as the Hindus have. They believe in Ganesh, the elephant god. What evidence do they have that such a god ever existed? None. He is just a mythical god. They have not evidence and neither do you. You continue to take Scripture out of context.

My faith is based on evidence. The evidence is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Without that, my faith would be in vain, as Paul says. Our entire Bible is backed up with evidence.

But you are hanging on to a belief, which, like a believe in the god of Ganesh, has no evidence. In that respect your faith is blind. It is no better than the blind faith than that of Hindu.

 

[awaken]

You have touted your experience in seeking the truth about the Charismatic movement over and over on the BB. That makes it fair game for refutation. Don't get all defensive when someone mentions it. It is part and parcel of your argument.

My experience was digging into the word myself. My clients were telling me about a change(manifesting the Holy Spirit) going on in their Baptist church. I questioned them...then went in search myself. There was no charismatic movement. It was all done in a Baptist church.

I trust my experience far more than yours. My reason for sitting in a park in Yokohama for hours praying and reading Scripture, fighting off the mosquitos, was to be empowered by God to serve Him. Your self-proclaimed purpose was to win a debate with "full gospel" people, as you put it. Your motive was selfish--to win a debate. God doesn't bless selfish motives, and the Holy Spirit does not lead and teach us when our motives are selfish.

No, mine was to defend what I was taught in a Baptist church. When I went in search for answers...I came across the truth! May I ask why you see fit to put down my experience?

You say you studied the Bible about the Holy Spirit. Did you read and pray about and study every single passage on the Holy Spirit in the Bible? If not, your study was inferior.

Yes, I did! Again who are you to question my study habits? Are we in somekind of competition here? Get over it! My experience and my studing of scriptures are both legit!!!

Baloney. You got personal with me by telling me that the problems with Charismatics in my church were Satan's fault and not the fault of tongues speakers. That makes me the agent of Satan by rejecting tongues. That's personal. And you accuse us non-charismatics of being unbelieving. That's personal. And you have over and over twisted my words. That's personal.

That was personal? I was telling you it was satan! IF anything satan should take it personal, not you...hahahaha. NO, I blamed satan for attacking your church..period! If you do not believe in the manifestation of the spirit...that is unbelief about it. What do you want me to say you believe when you do not!! I have twisted your words...go back and read the threads!
Now, can we get past this immaturity and discuss the word!

 

[awaken]

Yes, we always need evidence. Our faith is based on evidence, otherwise it is just blind faith as the Hindus have. They believe in Ganesh, the elephant god. What evidence do they have that such a god ever existed? None. He is just a mythical god. They have not evidence and neither do you. You continue to take Scripture out of context.

Our faith is based on the Word of God! THat is our evidence!

My faith is based on evidence. The evidence is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Without that, my faith would be in vain, as Paul says. Our entire Bible is backed up with evidence.

Did you see in person the resurrection or do you believe the Word about it? THat is faith! Believing without seeing! Believing because His word said So!

But you are hanging on to a belief, which, like a believe in the god of Ganesh, has no evidence. In that respect your faith is blind. It is no better than the blind faith than that of Hindu.

I believed first...then the evidence came! ANd your unbelief and all your debating will not take that away from me! MY FAITH IS IN THE WORD OF GOD..HOW MUCH PLAINER DO I HAVE TO MAKE IT! I believe what His word says without making up theories to excuse his promises away!

 

[DHK]

I believed first...then the evidence came! ANd your unbelief and all your debating will not take that away from me! MY FAITH IS IN THE WORD OF GOD..HOW MUCH PLAINER DO I HAVE TO MAKE IT! I believe what His word says without making up theories to excuse his promises away!

Please ask John about Shintoism since he lives in a nation that practices it. They practice ancestor worship. In the evening by faith they put out in front of their doors food for the spirits of their deceased ancestors believing that by pleasing them, they will protect their houses. In the morning they awake and see the evidence that they have been protected for that night.

That is precisely how your "faith" works. It is not established on the Word of God. It is blind. You look for so-called "evidence" afterward.

The evidence of my faith is already established. It is based on the resurrection of Christ, which was witnessed by over 500 witnesses. I cannot go back and call them all liars. The resurrection is one of the most well-established facts in all of history. I can establish that.

But no one can establish any evidence for your style of speaking in tongues. No one has ever established that it is a language that you speak in. It doesn't measure up to NT truth. It is fraudulent by NT standards. You have no evidence that you speak in an actual foreign language as the NT believers did. You have no evidence. It is just a sham.

 

[John of Japan]

# 1 I do not need to do this to comfim what I received by faith.
# 2 Lets say I do this and it proves to be a real language how will this evidence help you? Will you then believe that tongues are for today?
I sign to the unbelievers that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit is real...that is the sign!

This is a circular argument: your tongues are real because they are a sign of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. And what is the pouring out of the Holy Spirit? It is tongues?

Tongues were verified by the preaching of the word. All the unbelievers were amazed and in wonder. It was the preaching of the word that verified what was going on. Remember Peter referred back to Joel to explain what they were hearing and seeing. That was the verification!

So it matters not whether the tongues were understood or not? They would have been a sign even if they were not understood?

So you still need evidence? I did not need evidence! I stepped out on faith and received just like Peter said we could. Faith is the substance of things hoped for...the EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN. So tell me how are you pleasing God? Because you are demanding evidence! I believed because his word said it!

You misunderstand. I'm not asking for evidence that the tongues of the book of Acts were genuine languages. I accepted that by faith long ago. Asking for proof of modern tongues has nothing to do with my faith. I'm asking for proof that YOUR tongues are a genuine language, not the tonues of the Bible.

The early Pentecostals struggled with this, even if you don't. A Pentecostal historian wrote an article in a theological journal about this: "Glossalalia at Azusa Street: A Hidden Presupposition?" by Charles S. Gaede (Southwestern Assemblies of God College) in the Westminster Theological Journal of Spring, 1989. In an honest attempt to follow the pattern of Acts 2, they struggled deeply with the issue of xenoglossalalia--whether or not their tongues could be used in evangelism. You would be wise to imitate their struggle.

I think the Great Commission is clear in Mark 16:15-18 that tongues are for evangelism. Everything in the Great Commission is for evangelism.

Your wrong! It will not change your unbelief to get your information! I never prayed to receive tongues!! I do not think the Bible teaches you to pray for tongues. If so please show me the verse.

Tell me what I should do, then, once you prove that your tongues are a genuine language.

 

[John of Japan]

My experience was digging into the word myself. My clients were telling me about a change(manifesting the Holy Spirit) going on in their Baptist church. I questioned them...then went in search myself. There was no charismatic movement. It was all done in a Baptist church.

No, mine was to defend what I was taught in a Baptist church. When I went in search for answers...I came across the truth! May I ask why you see fit to put down my experience?

There is no command in Scripture to defend your church. We are told, "ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude v. 3).

That was personal? I was telling you it was satan! IF anything satan should take it personal, not you...hahahaha. NO, I blamed satan for attacking your church..period! If you do not believe in the manifestation of the spirit...that is unbelief about it. What do you want me to say you believe when you do not!! I have twisted your words...go back and read the threads!

I have told you over and over again where you had me saying something I did not, where you twisted my words, whether intentionally or not. (And I never said it was intentional.) In no case have you even answered me, much less apologized. Now Christ taught that if we are offended we are to go to the person an make it right (Matt. 18:15), and if someone is offended by us we are to make it right (Matt. 5:23-24). I've been obeying Christ every time you were offensive. But you have not made it right a single time. I've apologized and been apologized to quite a few times on the BB. I've never noticed you apologizing to anyone here! Do you think we are disembodied Internet spirits with no feelings?

Now, can we get past this immaturity and discuss the word!

I've been discussing the Word. I've referred to Acts 2:6 and 1 Cor. 14:22. And I hardly think making things right is immaturity.

 

[awaken]

Please ask John about Shintoism since he lives in a nation that practices it. They practice ancestor worship. In the evening by faith they put out in front of their doors food for the spirits of their deceased ancestors believing that by pleasing them, they will protect their houses. In the morning they awake and see the evidence that they have been protected for that night.

That is precisely how your "faith" works. It is not established on the Word of God. It is blind. You look for so-called "evidence" afterward.

Where in the word of God does it tell you anything about your first paragraph? That is not based on the Word of God! My faith is based on what the Word says!!!

The evidence of my faith is already established. It is based on the resurrection of Christ, which was witnessed by over 500 witnesses. I cannot go back and call them all liars. The resurrection is one of the most well-established facts in all of history. I can establish that.

But you never saw evidence yourself! It is by the Word of God! You believed before you saw the resurrected Christ...Just because his word said it!

But no one can establish any evidence for your style of speaking in tongues. No one has ever established that it is a language that you speak in. It doesn't measure up to NT truth. It is fraudulent by NT standards. You have no evidence that you speak in an actual foreign language as the NT believers did. You have no evidence. It is just a sham.

The word of God has established what I believe! I walk in what the Word says I can!

 

[awaken]

This is a circular argument: your tongues are real because they are a sign of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. And what is the pouring out of the Holy Spirit? It is tongues?

ANd you still have not said how my showing you it is a real language would prove anything to you? Would it change your belief?

So it matters not whether the tongues were understood or not? They would have been a sign even if they were not understood?

Tongues with the interpretation is a sign. Whether the one speaking gives it...another gives it...or it is just understood by someone that knows that language.

You misunderstand. I'm not asking for evidence that the tongues of the book of Acts were genuine languages. I accepted that by faith long ago. Asking for proof of modern tongues has nothing to do with my faith. I'm asking for proof that YOUR tongues are a genuine language, not the tonues of the Bible.

What would it prove? How would that change the way you believe?

The early Pentecostals struggled with this, even if you don't. A Pentecostal historian wrote an article in a theological journal about this: "Glossalalia at Azusa Street: A Hidden Presupposition?" by Charles S. Gaede (Southwestern Assemblies of God College) in the Westminster Theological Journal of Spring, 1989. In an honest attempt to follow the pattern of Acts 2, they struggled deeply with the issue of xenoglossalalia--whether or not their tongues could be used in evangelism. You would be wise to imitate their struggle.

No, wisdom comes from God! You are demanding it for today! Faith is faith...Everything in the word of God has to be by faith...or it is not pleasing to God.

I think the Great Commission is clear in Mark 16:15-18 that tongues are for evangelism. Everything in the Great Commission is for evangelism.

No, he tells them to go and preach...that is the great commission. AFTER they preach... signs will follow those that believe their gospel.

Tell me what I should do, then, once you prove that your tongues are a genuine language.

John I never asked anyone if their tongues were real. I never did seek after tongues...the HOly Spirit gives at his will. I was in search of truth...I prayed for truth! Once I saw what I have been trying to show here...in His Word...I repented of my unbelief and ask Him to receive the Holy Spirit, to fill me with himself!

 

[DHK]

Where in the word of God does it tell you anything about your first paragraph? That is not based on the Word of God! My faith is based on what the Word says!!!

Not everything is written in the Word of God.
Creation is written in the Word of God, and we accept it by faith. It speaks of the origin of the universe.
Evolution is not written in the Word of God, and many people believe in the Big Bang theory. Since it speaks of the origin of the earth it falls outside the realm of science and within the realm of metaphysics or faith. It must be accepted by faith, just as the Bible's account of Creation. The question then becomes which theory: the Big Bang, or Biblical Creation, is more credible? We believe Creation is. Not only because science backs it up, but because God says so. We believe it by faith. It is credible. It has credibility to it.

Belief in Ganesh, the elephant god, has no credibility because it is a mythical god. It has no basis in history or in reality.

But you never saw evidence yourself! It is by the Word of God! You believed before you saw the resurrected Christ...Just because his word said it!

The only ones required to see Christ personally are the apostles. That is why there are no apostles today. No one today has seen personally the resurrection, and therefore there are no apostles.
I know Nero lived.
I know Pilate lived.
I know the Apostle Paul lived.
And I certainly know that Christ lived and rose again from the dead. I didn't have to see him. I can't see you. Do you live? I have as much evidence that Christ rose from the dead, as I have that you are alive. I have never met you. There is technology today that could be answering my posts for me. You might be just another computer. I have no real evidence that you are who you say you are, and are a living being. I have more evidence that Christ is alive then I do that you are alive. And that is the truth!

The word of God has established what I believe! I walk in what the Word says I can!

No the Word of God has not established what you believe. It only established what the believers of the first century did. The Word of God established what miracles Moses did. It never promised you could do the miracles of Moses, or Jesus, or the Apostles. No such promise was ever given. It never gave you the promise of having the gifts of the Spirit. Those were promises given to NT believers, not to us who are over 2,000 years removed from those events. So no, your faith is not based on the Word of God.

Your faith is based on the faith of NT believers, which is not Biblical.