Marcion the Heretic

[JamesL]

Oooh, Shavout. I totally wasn't thinking. I do commemorate the Lev 23 feast days but the pilgrimage three times per year is postponed since there is no temple to go to and actually appear before Him since His presence is not there anymore.

Deuteronomy 16 says the Passover cannot be sacrificed anywhere except Jerusalem.

It is also plainly stated that all the males must appear in Jerusalem 3 times a year.

Btw, that whole "temple is gone" thing ought to tell you something

 

[Jason1]

Deuteronomy 16 says the Passover cannot be sacrificed anywhere except Jerusalem.

It is also plainly stated that all the males must appear in Jerusalem 3 times a year.

Btw, that whole "temple is gone" thing ought to tell you something

The temple was destroyed twice because of disobedience.

His feast days are forever and tell the plan of salvation. Not all is fulfilled in them yet.

 

[JamesL]

The temple was destroyed twice because of disobedience.

His feast days are forever and tell the plan of salvation. Not all is fulfilled in them yet.

What do you make of Hebrews 7-10?

 

[Jason1]

What do you make of Hebrews 7-10?

Hebrews is all about the day of atonement and the transference of the priesthood. That being said, if Yeshua was on earth he would not be a priest because that is after the levitical line while the heavenly is melechzadek.

No law is done away with or added to (deu 4:2, matt 5). But what changed is a heavenly priesthood to an earlier order.

 

[AndyMartin]

The Spirit is the power and essence of the Father and/or the Son. There is no third person. This reads too much into the text and denies that the Father is a spirit and that He is set-apart (holy). I believe this position makes 100x more sense.

To deny "Personality" to the Holy Spirit, lands you into a confrontation with the Word of God, which clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person, just like the Father and Jesus Christ are.

Firstly, to speak of "personality", we mean, "consisting of intelligence and will", which sets humans apart from the animal kingdom. This is what is meant when the Bible says that we are made in "God's Image". It has nothing to do with the "outward appearance", but that we have "intelligence and will", as rational beings, as God is.

When Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit in John's Gospel, He says that the Spirit is, "another comforter". The Greek here is much better, "ἄλλον παράκλητον", which is in the masculine gender. Strictly speaking, for grammatical gender agreement in the Greek, we have "Spirit" in the Greek, "πνεῦμα", which is neuter in gender. Jesus would have used the neuter, if the Holy Spirit were "impersonal". Also, we have "another", where "ἄλλον", is used for "another like Jesus". Since Jesus is a Person, and the Holy Spirit we continuing His Ministry, He is also a Person. This is confirmed when Jesus also refers to the Holy Spirit as "He", the Greek being, "ἐκεῖνος", which is the masculine. Again, if Jesus were speaking of just "another power", (impersonal) continuing His work, then he would have according to the correct Greek grammar, used, "ἐκεῖνο", which is in the neuter gender, and would agree with "πνεῦμα", in gender agreement. It is because the Holy Spirit is also a Person, like Jesus, He uses the masculine. Another factor is, that since Jesus Speaks of the Holy Spirit in John chapter 16, of continuing His work, and He is "ἄλλον παράκλητον", this very clearly means that the Holy Spirit is NOT the same Person as Jesus Christ, as the grammar very clearly distinguishes them. Jesus says that when He goes, then the Holy Spirit will only come. Read John chapter 16:1-15, where it is very clear, that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same Person.

If, as you say the Holy Spirit is not a "Person", then how can you account for the fact, that He has Personal qualities? The Holy Spirit, "creates", can be "grieved", "sends", "commissions", "teaches", "directs", etc, etc, all of which only a Person can do.

I have already shown that from passages like Matthew 28:19, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit cannot be the same Person, the Greek grammar is very precise here, and leaves no room for any doubt.

 

[Don]

Jason - I know you're trying to answer multiple people, and it's easy to over-look the shorter posts.

Regarding your last response to me (post #25) -- please forgive my thick-headedness, but you still haven't clarified: Jesus is God?

 

[Jason1]

Jason - I know you're trying to answer multiple people, and it's easy to over-look the shorter posts.

Regarding your last response to me (post #25) -- please forgive my thick-headedness, but you still haven't clarified: Jesus is God?

I believe that Yeshua is of the family of YHVH, but not the Father Himself. He is sent forth from YHVH and is the right arm (active force) that was from the beginning and is the word. I also believe He was the deity in the old testament who made covenant. Here are Yeshua's words:

Mat_11:27 “All have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son wishes to reveal Him.

Joh 12:49 “Because I spoke not from Myself, but the Father who sent Me has given Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
​

Yeshua is also in the role of priest:

Heb 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, יהושע the Son of Elohim, let us hold fast our confession.​

And Yeshua will be king on EARTH:

Rev 19:15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations. And He shall shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Ěl Shaddai.
Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh1 He has a name written: SOVEREIGN OF SOVEREIGNS AND MASTER OF MASTERS.​

​

 

[Jason1]

To deny "Personality" to the Holy Spirit, lands you into a confrontation with the Word of God, which clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person, just like the Father and Jesus Christ are.

Firstly, to speak of "personality", we mean, "consisting of intelligence and will", which sets humans apart from the animal kingdom. This is what is meant when the Bible says that we are made in "God's Image". It has nothing to do with the "outward appearance", but that we have "intelligence and will", as rational beings, as God is.

When Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit in John's Gospel, He says that the Spirit is, "another comforter". The Greek here is much better, "ἄλλον παράκλητον", which is in the masculine gender. Strictly speaking, for grammatical gender agreement in the Greek, we have "Spirit" in the Greek, "πνεῦμα", which is neuter in gender. Jesus would have used the neuter, if the Holy Spirit were "impersonal". Also, we have "another", where "ἄλλον", is used for "another like Jesus". Since Jesus is a Person, and the Holy Spirit we continuing His Ministry, He is also a Person. This is confirmed when Jesus also refers to the Holy Spirit as "He", the Greek being, "ἐκεῖνος", which is the masculine. Again, if Jesus were speaking of just "another power", (impersonal) continuing His work, then he would have according to the correct Greek grammar, used, "ἐκεῖνο", which is in the neuter gender, and would agree with "πνεῦμα", in gender agreement. It is because the Holy Spirit is also a Person, like Jesus, He uses the masculine. Another factor is, that since Jesus Speaks of the Holy Spirit in John chapter 16, of continuing His work, and He is "ἄλλον παράκλητον", this very clearly means that the Holy Spirit is NOT the same Person as Jesus Christ, as the grammar very clearly distinguishes them. Jesus says that when He goes, then the Holy Spirit will only come. Read John chapter 16:1-15, where it is very clear, that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same Person.

If, as you say the Holy Spirit is not a "Person", then how can you account for the fact, that He has Personal qualities? The Holy Spirit, "creates", can be "grieved", "sends", "commissions", "teaches", "directs", etc, etc, all of which only a Person can do.

I have already shown that from passages like Matthew 28:19, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit cannot be the same Person, the Greek grammar is very precise here, and leaves no room for any doubt.

When you see the "Spirit of YHVH" in scripture it is talking about YHVH himself, not a whole separate deity. I think it is silly to create another mighty one when only ONE sits on the throne.

 

[AndyMartin]

When you see the "Spirit of YHVH" in scripture it is talking about YHVH himself, not a whole separate deity. I think it is silly to create another mighty one when only ONE sits on the throne.

There is no separate Deity. there is only One Eternal Being God, but in the Godhead, we are told in the Bible, that there are Three separate Person's, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but These Three are one in essence. What you are saying is Modalism, where the One Person God, appears as "Father", "Son" and "Holy Spirit", as different "roles" played by the same Person, like an actor who plays three parts. This is very dangerous and against what the Bible actually teaches.

 

[Jason1]

There is no separate Deity. there is only One Eternal Being God, but in the Godhead, we are told in the Bible, that there are Three separate Person's, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but These Three are one in essence. What you are saying is Modalism, where the One Person God, appears as "Father", "Son" and "Holy Spirit", as different "roles" played by the same Person, like an actor who plays three parts. This is very dangerous and against what the Bible actually teaches.

No, i'm not saying that. I'm saying that there is one Father who sits on the throne and at his right hand is His Son who carries out His will. They both have a spirit and there is no need for a third deity. If you remember, the Father is a spirit so that would make two spirits by your formula.

 

[Adonia]

There is no separate Deity. there is only One Eternal Being God, but in the Godhead, we are told in the Bible, that there are Three separate Person's, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but These Three are one in essence. What you are saying is Modalism, where the One Person God, appears as "Father", "Son" and "Holy Spirit", as different "roles" played by the same Person, like an actor who plays three parts. This is very dangerous and against what the Bible actually teaches.

Good luck with our friend. For him to believe you would cause his whole house of cards to collapse. It's not what actually is, but what Jason says it is. I had it out with him concerning the one truth of what it means to keep kosher.

 

[Adonia]

No, i'm not saying that. I'm saying that there is one Father who sits on the throne and at his right hand is His Son who carries out His will. They both have a spirit and there is no need for a third deity. If you remember, the Father is a spirit so that would make two spirits by your formula.

15 “If you love me, you will obey my commandments. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever. 17 That helper is the Spirit of Truth. (The Holy Spirit) The world cannot accept him, because it doesn’t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you.

The Holy Spirit, a distinct separate entity part of the Triune Godhead which has been taught by the Universal Christian Church from the beginning. Sorry, it took Luther 1500 years to come up with his version of things and now your version some 500 years down the line from that is off the rails too.

 

[Jason1]

15 “If you love me, you will obey my commandments. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever. 17 That helper is the Spirit of Truth. (The Holy Spirit) The world cannot accept him, because it doesn’t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you.

The Holy Spirit, a distinct separate entity part of the Triune Godhead which has been taught by the Universal Christian Church from the beginning. Sorry, it took Luther 1500 years to come up with his version of things and now your version some 500 years down the line from that is off the rails too.

I'm sorry, but I'm not catholic anymore, nor ever wish to be again. I have come out of it and its false teachings.

 

[AndyMartin]

I'm sorry, but I'm not catholic anymore, nor ever wish to be again. I have come out of it and its false teachings.

You have some out of one "false teaching", and into another one on the God of the Holy Bible, Whom you deny is a Trinity or Persons, and believe in Unitarianism, or Modalism? Which is it?

 

[Jason1]

You have some out of one "false teaching", and into another one on the God of the Holy Bible, Whom you deny is a Trinity or Persons, and believe in Unitarianism, or Modalism? Which is it?

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Yisra’ĕl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one!
Deu 6:5 “And you shall love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your might.
Deu 6:6 “And these Words which I am commanding you today shall be in your heart,
Deu 6:7 and you shall impress them upon your children, and shall speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up,
Deu 6:8 and shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
Deu 6:9 “And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

 

[Don]

I believe that Yeshua is of the family of YHVH, but not the Father Himself. He is sent forth from YHVH and is the right arm (active force) that was from the beginning and is the word. I also believe He was the deity in the old testament who made covenant. Here are Yeshua's words:

Mat_11:27 “All have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son wishes to reveal Him.

Joh 12:49 “Because I spoke not from Myself, but the Father who sent Me has given Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
​

Yeshua is also in the role of priest:

Heb 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, יהושע the Son of Elohim, let us hold fast our confession.​

And Yeshua will be king on EARTH:

Rev 19:15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations. And He shall shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Ěl Shaddai.
Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh1 He has a name written: SOVEREIGN OF SOVEREIGNS AND MASTER OF MASTERS.​

​

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Adonia]

You have some out of one "false teaching", and into another one on the God of the Holy Bible, Whom you deny is a Trinity or Persons, and believe in Unitarianism, or Modalism? Which is it?

Perhaps you are following the "false teachings"? Yes, that's it. Now we go on to ask which one of the thousands of false teachings out there you have grabbed on to?

 

[Jason1]

Here is a good article on Marcion and his theology from a website called Theology matters:

http://www.theologymatters.com/SEPOCT98.PDF