Are you seriously suggesting we shouldn't pray for someone to get saved? Or pray for people generally? Do you think your prayers have no effect whatsoever?
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Marian Apparitions
- Thread starter Zenas
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But if the sinner's prayer ends up fooling someone into believing that they are saved when they are not - and that person eventually dies without being truly saved...
Why isn't the sinner's prayer then a tool of the devil in such a situation?
I have to agree that was a most odd response.
We should pray for aunt Fannie's toe to get better but not for unsaved family members to become saved?
Prayer for aunt Fannie's toe works? But prayer for someone to become saved doesn't?
Nope...........
No, I am seriously suggesting that our prayer does not save them. I can pray to the day I die and without them having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, they go to hell. My prayer will save no one. That doesn't mean that I do not speak to God and bring my heart before Him but it will no save one just because I prayed for them.
Although your prayer does not save anyone, it may be the sine qua non of that person's salvation. "[P]ray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much." James 5:16.
I can see why this would be confusing without more background on Catholic theology to understand what this means. This isn't saying that Jacinta will be saved by saying the rosary. Using your vocabulary, it means that Jacinta is saved already, but the process of sanctification taking place in him will require him to spend a lot of time in prayer before it can be completed.
Again, you can't understand this without understanding what the devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is about. To embrace this devotion means to have the same love for Jesus that Mary had for her Son, and to have the same intimate relationship with Jesus that Mary had with her Son, who of course lived in her womb then was raised by her. It is a call to be as close to Christ as Mary was. So it is saying that anyone who has such a personal relationship with Christ will be saved. It's not as far off the mark as it sounds.
Does dedicating a building to a person constitute worship? Here we dedicate arenas to people we honor, usually a politician or a person who did some good deed. It isn't worship. Catholics similarly dedicate each church to a particular saint. It doesn't mean that the church isn't primarily meant to worship God. Just like the person who an arena is dedicated to doesn't have the right to come to the arena and use it any time he wants. It's just a way of honoring someone.
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I would not want to trade places with you when you get to Heaven and come face to face with the Blessed Virgin Mary and find out that she really is the Queen of Heaven. Wow! You might even have to bow to her. So humiliating! And how will you explain to her that you called her a demon?
I know I would be pretty upset if someone called my mother a demon. I don't think I would let them in my house until they apologized.
WestminsterMan
New Member
If a person disrespects another's mother, then there will be consequences. How do you think Jesus will feel about that? Hmmm...
WM
Just to clarify this a bit: Catholics don't believe someone can be saved by having someone pray for them. What we do is pray for the person's conversion. We ask God to help the person come to faith in Him. If God gives the person the gift of faith and the appropriate graces to respond to it, then the person will be saved.
+ Putting your faith and trust in Him? But I would suggest that the former, at least for some, is a necessary precondition of the latter.
I would like to address this quote which caused so much consternation:
People read this and think 'blasphemy' or 'false godess'. But you need to distinguish between the role of a mother and the role of a God. Children constantly fly to their mother in danger and with their needs. This doesn't constitute worship. Catholics think of Mary as their mother. She does not take the place of God.
Let's take a biblical example, King David. The Israelites would fly to him with their dangers and their needs, because God had made him King. King David in no way stole worship from God. In fact, to honor King David was a way of honoring the God who made David the King.
In the same way, to obey Christ, and treat Mary as our God-appointed mother, isn't a detraction from God, it is obedience to God.
The problem is that some of you guys don't seem to have a formal theology. You can't even define what worship is. It's just "I know it when I see it". There's no way to debate with someone who refuses to define their terms. Define what worship is, and then we can look at counter-examples or compare it to how Catholics actually treat Mary. Define worship in a way that does not include the normal respect a person has for their mother, and does not include the respect people have for a God-appointed King. Otherwise it's not an intellectual discussion at all, it's just a bunch of finger-pointing.
People read this and think 'blasphemy' or 'false godess'. But you need to distinguish between the role of a mother and the role of a God. Children constantly fly to their mother in danger and with their needs. This doesn't constitute worship. Catholics think of Mary as their mother. She does not take the place of God.
Let's take a biblical example, King David. The Israelites would fly to him with their dangers and their needs, because God had made him King. King David in no way stole worship from God. In fact, to honor King David was a way of honoring the God who made David the King.
In the same way, to obey Christ, and treat Mary as our God-appointed mother, isn't a detraction from God, it is obedience to God.
The problem is that some of you guys don't seem to have a formal theology. You can't even define what worship is. It's just "I know it when I see it". There's no way to debate with someone who refuses to define their terms. Define what worship is, and then we can look at counter-examples or compare it to how Catholics actually treat Mary. Define worship in a way that does not include the normal respect a person has for their mother, and does not include the respect people have for a God-appointed King. Otherwise it's not an intellectual discussion at all, it's just a bunch of finger-pointing.
Agreed, and it seems that you are on all fours with the Catholic JarJo on that point. But can you not see that you can intercede for someone's salvation and that God can answer that prayer by saving him/ her?
WestminsterMan
New Member
No, No, No, and No. You see, I don't have a problem with the Rosary because I don't pray it. If it is any of those things that you stated, then I'll leave that between the persons praying it and God. It's not up to me to judge Catholics or anyone else. Further, I suspect that if you do a little research, you might find that particular part isn't what you think it is. However, I've learned to lower my expectations since I've been here.
WM
WestminsterMan
New Member
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I think fundamentally Annsi will say no because God has already decreed who will and will not be saved. Thus prayers for either catagory of person's salvation is wasted.
As someone who occasionally prays the rosary, I would like to comment on 'the most objectionable prayer' of them all in the rosary that someone posted:
We consider Mary to be our spiritual mother. Not our goddess. Yes, we shower her with praise and compliments. Think of a really mushy Mother's Day card. We obey the commandment when we honor our mother. But notice what exactly we are asking for in that prayer "show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus". This is what we want from our mother, and this is what she wants to give us. Mary is all about helping us to find Jesus.
You'll probably object that we don't need someone to help us find Jesus, and I respect your opinion. You can continue to reject this 'spiritual mother' concept, but I just want to make sure you have an accurate understanding of exactly what is being rejected. I think the disagreement here is a smaller gap than it may seem to some. I have no desire to convince baptists to say the rosary. My intent here is just to make sure the gap between our denominations isn't seen as being a lot wider than it really is. :1_grouphug:
We consider Mary to be our spiritual mother. Not our goddess. Yes, we shower her with praise and compliments. Think of a really mushy Mother's Day card. We obey the commandment when we honor our mother. But notice what exactly we are asking for in that prayer "show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus". This is what we want from our mother, and this is what she wants to give us. Mary is all about helping us to find Jesus.
You'll probably object that we don't need someone to help us find Jesus, and I respect your opinion. You can continue to reject this 'spiritual mother' concept, but I just want to make sure you have an accurate understanding of exactly what is being rejected. I think the disagreement here is a smaller gap than it may seem to some. I have no desire to convince baptists to say the rosary. My intent here is just to make sure the gap between our denominations isn't seen as being a lot wider than it really is. :1_grouphug:
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What does that mean? What is a Spiritual Mother? What part of scripture says she is a Spiritual Mother? Or is this just a non scriptural church edict?
We believe that when Christ told John from the cross "this is your Mother" this was meant in a spiritual sense for the entire church, not just for John.
And a spiritual mother is like your human mother when you were a child, when she would remind you to say your prayers before going to bed. Or like a spiritual director you might speak to at your church. It's someone who reminds you to pray, prays for you, gives you advice about your walk with Jesus, etc.
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