Mark's Great Commission

[John of Japan]

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Some apply this to current times, saying we have to accomplish this before the Rapture comes. Pretty sure you don't think that way. I don't.

So how inclusive is Mark's GC and out to what time line extension might it be?
It seems only to apply to the times of the gentiles of which we are part.

HankD

I think it applies right into the tribulation period.

 

[HankD]

Some apply this to current times, saying we have to accomplish this before the Rapture comes. Pretty sure you don't think that way. I don't.

I don't.

I think it applies right into the tribulation period.

OK, that's interesting.

HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

The origin is pretty obvious. But no one is reading back 20th (or 21st) century technology into Mark's GC. The technology is the means to accomplish the GC already given. Any suggestion that modern means should not be used to obey the GC has then even abolished the means to get to the mission field by airplanes or even 19th century steamships or ocean-going sailing ships. I suppose I would then have to have made sure I traveled across the Pacific to Japan in a 1st century Mediterranean sailboat (and no doubt perished on the way).

I think I stated the same thing when I said, "Of course, if your intent is from a 21st century perspective then of course such technology can be used." However, 19th century technology does no good in answering how this commission could effectively reach the world for the first 1700 years.

But Christ ascended earlier in Acts 1. I suppose you don't mean that it was actually given to them while they were assembled to install Matthias.

Acts 1:1-11 takes up back before the events in Acts 1:15-26 to include the last 40 days before his ascension.

8 But you shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come on you: and you shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven.
12 ¶ Then returned they to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day’s journey.

From verse 9 it appears that he had just finished speaking verse 8 while they beheld him ascending. In verse 12 the place is identified as the "mount called Olivet" where this occurred.

. I'm not quite sure what you mean by a distinction between us and them being abolished.

The authorized administrators are those called "ye" while those identified as 'them" are recently evangelized Christians who are yet unbaptized and not gathered into a teaching observing assembly called the church (Acts 2:40-41). For a much fuller explanation in a much more detailed fashion please see https://www.baptistboard.com/thread...rkism-ecclesiology.102451/page-5#post-2270136

and posts #'s1-3,23

For a church to send a missionary is of course 100% Biblical. But I don't look at that as a method but an obedient strategy, directly responsive to the Great Commission.

With all due respect, the Lord presents his own example of sending by the Father from heaven to earth as an obedient method "as the Father hath sent me so now I send you." The verb of the noun "apostle" is used to describe those "sent" out of the churches (Acts 11:21;14:4,14) and Jesus Christ is the "apostle" of our profession. The Father did not send heaven with all its angels and saints, but his Son as the missionary to a dark mission field.

However, over the centuries those missionaries have all used various means to get the Gospel out according to the technology of the day. Men like Adoniram Judson and William Carey wrote tracts and translated the Scriptures, printing them on presses carefully taken from the homeland to the mission field. That was the technology of the day. It was quite a step up from the handwritten Scriptures translated by Missionary Ulfilas in the 4th century. Old Ulfilas would have been delighted to have a printing press!

Fully agree!

 

[John of Japan]

I think I stated the same thing when I said, "Of course, if your intent is from a 21st century perspective then of course such technology can be used." However, 19th century technology does no good in answering how this commission could effectively reach the world for the first 1700 years.

Each generation must use the means available to it. Other than that I'm not sure of your point. You aren't opposing using modern technology, I'm pretty sure.

Acts 1:1-11 takes up back before the events in Acts 1:15-26 to include the last 40 days before his ascension.

8 But you shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come on you: and you shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven.
12 ¶ Then returned they to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day’s journey.

From verse 9 it appears that he had just finished speaking verse 8 while they beheld him ascending. In verse 12 the place is identified as the "mount called Olivet" where this occurred.

So then, you do not put any statement of the GC at the time of the Upper Room, correct?

The authorized administrators are those called "ye" while those identified as 'them" are recently evangelized Christians who are yet unbaptized and not gathered into a teaching observing assembly called the church (Acts 2:40-41). For a much fuller explanation in a much more detailed fashion please see https://www.baptistboard.com/thread...rkism-ecclesiology.102451/page-5#post-2270136

and posts #'s1-3,23

Thanks for the clarification.

With all due respect, the Lord presents his own example of sending by the Father from heaven to earth as an obedient method "as the Father hath sent me so now I send you." The verb of the noun "apostle" is used to describe those "sent" out of the churches (Acts 11:21;14:4,14) and Jesus Christ is the "apostle" of our profession. The Father did not send heaven with all its angels and saints, but his Son as the missionary to a dark mission field.

How is sending someone a "method"? The Scriptures do not use that term, and apostello has no sign of "method" in it's historical or 1st century usage. "Messenger" does not lexically equal "method."

John 20 is interesting in that it has two different words for send, using them as synonyms: "As my father hath sent (apostello) me, so send (pempo) I you. No more than apostello does the usage of pempo indicate "method."

 

[The Biblicist]

Each generation must use the means available to it. Other than that I'm not sure of your point. You aren't opposing using modern technology, I'm pretty sure.

That is true and I am not against using technology. However, I thought the thread was an attempt to figure out how such a commission could reach the world or was it simply a call to perfection and a frustrating impossibility but nevertheless an accountable standard. To me that requires looking at the time frame for which it is given and what expectations are consistent with that time frame if it could be practically accomplished. That is why I mentioned that Paul claimed the gospel had gone into the whole world in his day, thus demonstrating at least in Paul's mind that goal had been accomplished without modern technology.

So then, you do not put any statement of the GC at the time of the Upper Room, correct?

Correct

How is sending someone a "method"? The Scriptures do not use that term,

I don't believe I ever said "method" was a scriptural term. I was responding to your response where you used the term "method."

and apostello has no sign of "method" in it's historical or 1st century usage. "Messenger" does not lexically equal "method."

I really don't understand what you mean by"sign" as the term is used in that very manner for the church sending out those to preach the gospel and therefore by way of Biblical example it is descriptive of a "method" for obeying the Great Commission to all the world.

Church sent missionaries as Barnabas are called "apostles" or one sent out by the Church to do missionary work.The verb is also used for Barnabas as one "sent" by the church at Jerualem to follow upon and set in order the work of preachers passing through Antioch.

I agree the term itself conveys nothing but being sent out, but the use of it by the churches of Jerusalem and Antioch clearly set forth an example for obeying the Great Commission by the churches.

 

[kyredneck]

Paul claimed the gospel had gone into the whole world in his day, thus demonstrating at least in Paul's mind that goal had been accomplished without modern technology.

Finally. Thank you.

8 But you shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come on you: and you shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth.

Christ unequivocally stated that these eleven would indeed be His witnesses unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Next chapter, Acts 2:

5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?

The preaching at Pentecost was a gospel bomb that broadcast the gospel to every nation under heaven:

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:17-18

 

[John of Japan]

That is true and I am not against using technology. However, I thought the thread was an attempt to figure out how such a commission could reach the world or was it simply a call to perfection and a frustrating impossibility but nevertheless an accountable standard. To me that requires looking at the time frame for which it is given and what expectations are consistent with that time frame if it could be practically accomplished. That is why I mentioned that Paul claimed the gospel had gone into the whole world in his day, thus demonstrating at least in Paul's mind that goal had been accomplished without modern technology.

Thanks for the clarification. I see where you're coming from now. You are entirely correct. Paul and the others reached their generation without the technology we have.

I would add that the GC is to be obeyed by every generation of churches and their members, just as the other commands of Christ. Each generation must face new challenges for obedience, therefore methods may change generationally.

I don't believe I ever said "method" was a scriptural term. I was responding to your response where you used the term "method."

Okay

I really don't understand what you mean by"sign" as the term is used in that very manner for the church sending out those to preach the gospel and therefore by way of Biblical example it is descriptive of a "method" for obeying the Great Commission to all the world.

As a Greek teacher and translator, I look at the meaning of each individual word. There is no basis in the Greek for saying that someone being sent is a method. What is actually implied instead with either verb (apostello, pempo) is either a task or a message or both. "Task" and "message" do not equal "method." We accomplish tasks and deliver messages by methods. The means and the end are separate semantically.

Church sent missionaries as Barnabas are called "apostles" or one sent out by the Church to do missionary work.The verb is also used for Barnabas as one "sent" by the church at Jerualem to follow upon and set in order the work of preachers passing through Antioch.

Agreed.

I agree the term itself conveys nothing but being sent out, but the use of it by the churches of Jerusalem and Antioch clearly set forth an example for obeying the Great Commission by the churches.

Their obedience to the GC was a task including a message. So again, the method is up to the messenger.

 

[The Biblicist]

As a Greek teacher and translator, I look at the meaning of each individual word. There is no basis in the Greek for saying that someone being sent is a method. What is actually implied instead with either verb (apostello, pempo) is either a task or a message or both. "Task" and "message" do not equal "method." We accomplish tasks and deliver messages by methods. The means and the end are separate semantically.

I am not too shabby a Greek student as I have had 5 years of college and seminary classroom Greek under the best independent and SBC trained Greek scholars. Of course that was between the years 1974-82. So admittedly I am a little rusty, but not so rusty that I can't understand any grammatical contextual based argument.
I don't believe I ever said the Greek term conveyed the method, but rather it is the use of the term by the church and how they applied it that conveys the method of carrying out the Great Commission command "go." The churches "sent" out individuals with that goal in mind and therefore sending out is a method for obeying the Great Commission command. The meaning of the Greek terms, both noun and verb as applied by the churches is simply supportive of that conclusion.

Their obedience to the GC was a task including a message. So again, the method is up to the messenger.

Actually the method for obeying the Great Commission is defined by the Commission itself. They are to "make disciples" and this is how it is done "go" (being "sent" to do this is equivilent) evangelize first, baptize second and then add them to a teaching observing assembly third. And that is the process method they obeyed in Acts 2:40-41.

 

[John of Japan]

I am not too shabby a Greek student as I have had 5 years of college and seminary classroom Greek under the best independent and SBC trained Greek scholars. Of course that was between the years 1974-82. So admittedly I am a little rusty, but not so rusty that I can't understand any grammatical contextual based argument.
I don't believe I ever said the Greek term conveyed the method, but rather it is the use of the term by the church and how they applied it that conveys the method of carrying out the Great Commission command "go." The churches "sent" out individuals with that goal in mind and therefore sending out is a method for obeying the Great Commission command. The meaning of the Greek terms, both noun and verb as applied by the churches is simply supportive of that conclusion.

Actually the method for obeying the Great Commission is defined by the Commission itself. They are to "make disciples" and this is how it is done "go" evangelize first, baptize second and then add them to a teaching observing assembly third. And that is the process method they obeyed in Acts 2:40-41.

Tell you what, I think we have both had our say on this subject, and it's not that vital to the OP, so I'll let it go with this. But it's been a good discussion. Thanks!

 

[The Biblicist]

Tell you what, I think we have both had our say on this subject, and it's not that vital to the OP, so I'll let it go with this. But it's bee a good discussion. Thanks!

Sounds good! Thanks for the feedback!

 

[John of Japan]

I am not too shabby a Greek student as I have had 5 years of college and seminary classroom Greek under the best independent and SBC trained Greek scholars. Of course that was between the years 1974-82. So admittedly I am a little rusty, but not so rusty that I can't understand any grammatical contextual based argument.

What schools did you go to? Just curious.

I got my BA at Tenn. Temple in '76 and MA at Maranatha Bapt. Bible Grad School (now a seminary) in '05 after a couple of semesters at Temple Seminary in '76 and '86.

 

[The Biblicist]

What schools did you go to? Just curious.

I got my BA at Tenn. Temple in '76 and MA at Maranatha Bapt. Bible Grad School (now a seminary) in '05 after a couple of semesters at Temple Seminary in '76 and '86.

I got my BA at Lexington Baptist College in Lexington, KY (74-78). I was accepted into the MA degree program at the University of Kentucky in ancient langauges but at the last moment change my mind and went on the missionary field. My ThM was at Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary in Memphis, TN (80-82 - 60 credit hours) and at Landmark Baptist Theological Seminary in Dallas, TX (2009). I lacked only my Master's thesis at Landmark for the ThM. I received my ThD at the same last mentioned (2014) and my thesis was on the use of pistos with the definite article in the New Testament. I was just accepted this summer at Trinity Divinity School of Theology for a PhD. However, health issues prevented me from persuing that degree program.

I am afraid infirmities (Arthritis) and age are getting the best of me now as I am seemingly having short term memory problems. My picture was made when I was in my late 50's about 10 years ago.

I am fully retired now as my wife is in the later stages of alzheimers and she is my full time ministry. However, I do teach an online seminar in ecclesiology for John Leland Baptist College once a year.

 

[John of Japan]

I got my BA at Lexington Baptist College in Lexington, KY (74-78). I was accepted into the MA degree program at the University of Kentucky in ancient langauges but at the last moment change my mind and went on the missionary field. My ThM was at Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary in Memphis, TN (80-82 - 60 credit hours) and at Landmark Baptist Theological Seminary in Dallas, TX (2009). I lacked only my Master's thesis at Landmark for the ThM. I received my ThD at the same last mentioned (2014) and my thesis was on the use of pistos with the definite article in the New Testament. I was just accepted this summer at Trinity Divinity School of Theology for a PhD. However, health issues prevented me from persuing that degree program.

Excellent CV!

I am afraid infirmities (Arthritis) and age are getting the best of me now as I am seemingly having short term memory problems. My picture was made when I was in my late 50's about 10 years ago.

I know what you mean. I'm a little younger but have the same problems--along with hearing problems.

 

[The Biblicist]

Excellent CV!

I know what you mean. I'm a little younger but have the same problems--along with hearing problems.

My mind now acts like a book with every third page blank. That is one reason I return and edit my posts so much because I am getting slow on the draw plus eye sight problems and I miss typo's.

 

[percho]

Estimate, how many have been missed since the giving of the GC.

Over, under, half?

 

[Iconoclast]

John of Japan

Hello JoJ.

How do we best obey Mark's GC? In other words, how do we get the Gospel to "every creature"?

God has ordained preaching of the word of the Cross.
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1cor2;
2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Is it even possible? ,

Yes...it is certain

God is not willing that any perish who He intends to save. Not one will be lost.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[John of Japan]

I got my BA at Lexington Baptist College in Lexington, KY (74-78). I was accepted into the MA degree program at the University of Kentucky in ancient langauges but at the last moment change my mind and went on the missionary field.

And I'm sure your linguistic leanings helped you on the mission field. Where did you go?

I am fully retired now as my wife is in the later stages of alzheimers and she is my full time ministry.

So sorry to hear about your wife. My Dad had Alzheimer's, but it was such a blessing to see that he kept his faith until the very end, since faith is in the spirit, not the brain.

However, I do teach an online seminar in ecclesiology for John Leland Baptist College once a year.

Once a teacher, always a teacher, right? I never could quit teaching in Japan--taught in two different Bible schools, and still have a student there for my DVD coursees.

 

[John of Japan]

My mind now acts like a book with every third page blank. That is one reason I return and edit my posts so much because I am getting slow on the draw plus eye sight problems and I miss typo's.

Trust me, don't worry about the typos. Compared to most on the BB, your posts are fine.

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan

Hello JoJ.

God has ordained preaching of the word of the Cross.
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Thanks for your input.

The Scripture is, of course, wonderful. However, the question is not whether or not we should preach the Gospel, but how can we preach it to every person on earth as per Mark's GC.

I believe that technological advances, in God's providence, can help us do this: cell phones, other recording or playback devices, the Internet, radio, TV, etc.l

When I went to Africa this past Spring, I took with me recording devices, bought cheaply at Walmart, which are being used to record our oral Bible translation effort. Paul would have surely used such devices!

 

[The Biblicist]

And I'm sure your linguistic leanings helped you on the mission field. Where did you go?

Home mission field - Montana and Washington state - planted three churches.

Once a teacher, always a teacher, right? I never could quit teaching in Japan--taught in two different Bible schools, and still have a student there for my DVD coursees.

Yes, I must admit that teaching is my second love after research and writing.