Mark's Great Commission

[The Biblicist]

My eschatology determines nothing. I know there are some here who are unconvinced of that but that is their business. I am telling the truth.

I don't doubt your sincerity but "truth" is not determined by sincerity but by correct Bibilical analysis and your interpetation of "age" in Matthew 28:20 is not sustained by Matthew's use of that term. Don't go running to Hebrews or some other context outside the Biblical writers own use of the term.Different writers in different contexts use terms differently but Matthew's usage of that term does not support your interpertation of Matthew 28:20.

Moreover, the immediate context of Matthew 28;19-20 will not support your intepretation of that term. There is one main verb modified by three participles. The main verb describes WHAT they are commanded to do while the participles describe HOW it is to be done. You simply cannot pick and choose what you want! The words "until the end of the age" is descriptive of all three participles, not just one.

 

[asterisktom]

You are avoiding my question. I asked you if you can sustain your interpertation of the Greek term aionos in Matthew 28:20 by Matthew's own use of it anywhere else in his gospel and he does in fact use it prior to this point (Mt. 12:32; 13:22; 39, 40; 24:3). Please answer the question.

"Avoiding" is the wrong word. I didn't avoid your question. I ignored it. I did so - as I explained to you - because it is a loaded question, a question that has a wrong answer built into it. But I took a look now at your other aionos verses in Matthew only. And, yes, I can not only sustain but strengthen my view by those by those verses. Which of those verses do you think is an obstacle to my preterist view?

Also, you completely avoided the grammatical difficulties I presented for your interpretation of aionos in Matthew 28:20. You can't pick and choose what will and will not continue to the "end of the age." The command to "make disciples" is defined by three participles and all three are confined within that time frame not just one.

This I didn't avoid. I just didn't get to it yet. But I have to say that I don't say where this is a difficulty for me. All of those things mentioned there continue to the end of the age - the Jewish dispensation, AD 70. But they did not stop there. None of those injunctions ended at the end of the age. We are still to make disciples, etc. And, of course, Christ is still with us, even though a very superficial reading of the passage could lead someone to assume Christ's presence ended with the end of the age.

In short, nothing spoken of in this passage came to an end. The only thing that did come to an end was that age itself.

Additional thought: In a different post you accused me of "running" to other books in the Bible and not staying with one book. I don't call it "running", but "cross-referencing". I realize that each author does tend to favor certain word-nuances (for want of a better term). But I think you are taking this to extremes if you have a problem with my not staying in Matthew.

 

[John of Japan]

A bald assertion bereft of Scriptural backing.

Not at all. You (and the redneck) should really ask what someone means before considering them to be foolishly mistaken. I knew exactly what I was saying when I said Mark's GC was not to the apostles.

Look at the passage again. It says "the eleven," not "the apostles," or even "the eleven apostles." Furthermore, there is nothing in the context to indicate they are considered apostles at the time of Mark's GC. Mark only uses the term one single time, way back in Mark 6:30, after they returned to Christ from being "sent out." However, in Mark 16 they are backslidden, having doubted the resurrection and abandoned their calling. In the very same verse that says "the eleven," Jesus "upbraided them."

When a pastor (or apostle) abandons their calling, no one calls them "pastor." It is the same in this passage. They were not worthy at that time to be called apostle.

I obey it insomuch that I am still a missionary here in China, albeit unofficial. But a clearer mandate for me to witness for Christ is in other passages. Likewise I don't handle snakes or expect God to work sign miracles through me.

Glad you obey it. But the miracles of Mark 16 "follow" the witness. But that's another thread for another time.

Your seeing in us not "strange aggresiveness" but a different viewpoint from brothers in Christ. It seems strange to you because you all in the great majority read commentaries that reinforce - not challenge - your pre-inherited views.

You misunderstand. I said that I have the redneck on "Ignore" because of his strange aggressiveness (read "past insults"), not yours.

And my views are not "pre-inherited" (that's not really a word, you know). They are my own views, learned from hundreds of hours of Scripture study. My eschatology is somewhat different from that of my father and grandfather. And I seldom consult commentaries, but prefer to go to the original languages on my own.

So, next time please leave your preconceived notions of what I am behind, and judge rightly.

 

[kyredneck]

I knew exactly what I was saying when I said Mark's GC was not to the apostles.

Look at the passage again. It says "the eleven," not "the apostles," or even "the eleven apostles." Furthermore, there is nothing in the context to indicate they are considered apostles at the time of Mark's GC. Mark only uses the term one single time, way back in Mark 6:30, after they returned to Christ from being "sent out." However, in Mark 16 they are backslidden, having doubted the resurrection and abandoned their calling. In the very same verse that says "the eleven," Jesus "upbraided them."

You must be desperate to stoop to this sort of pettiness.

 

[kyredneck]

Can you point to scripture where this command, given to the apostles, is deemed to be the Great Commission?

that phrase Great Commission is not there , but I can't find the the term - Trinity - in the scripture either

But I can find scripture to justify the use of Trinity for the triune God. 'Great Commission', as you call it, a command given to His eyewitnesses, carries the implication 'greatest of all' of the commands given in the NT. I can find no scripture to justify your 'Great Commission' as the greatest of commands.

 

[HankD]

But I can find scripture to justify the use of Trinity for the triune God. 'Great Commission', as you call it, a command given to His eyewitnesses, carries the implication 'greatest of all' of the commands given in the NT. I can find no scripture to justify your 'Great Commission' as the greatest of commands.

Hi K,

Call our responsibility to spread the gospel whatever you wish K.
A rose by any other name smells the same.

HankD

 

[JonShaff]

But I can find scripture to justify the use of Trinity for the triune God. 'Great Commission', as you call it, a command given to His eyewitnesses, carries the implication 'greatest of all' of the commands given in the NT. I can find no scripture to justify your 'Great Commission' as the greatest of commands.

This doesn't make sense (sorry to butt in). I don't see those implications.

Christ clearly says what the GREAT-EST command is--Love God with all your heart.

I haven't heard anyone call it the "GreatEST commission," however it is a GREAT commission. Preaching/Teaching, Baptizing, Making Disciples is pretty important, thus "Great" would be a proper fit, IMHO.

 

[HankD]

This doesn't make sense (sorry to butt in). I don't see those implications.

Christ clearly says what the GREAT-EST command is--Love God with all your heart.

I haven't heard anyone call it the "GreatEST commission," however it is a GREAT commission. Preaching/Teaching, Baptizing, Making Disciples is pretty important, thus "Great" would be a proper fit, IMHO.

I am still waiting for an answer from those who don't support the "Great Commission" (GC) as to why they baptize not being an authorized recipient of said (GC).

Repeat: Why do those of you who do not support the GC (given to the apostles) practice the command to baptize those who hear and believe the gospel?

My apologies if someone has made an attempt to answer - please give me the reference.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

Repeat: Why do those of you who do not support the GC (given to the apostles) practice the command to baptize those who hear and believe the gospel?

I don't understand the rationale of the question as there are many examples/mentions of water baptism given in scripture other than your 'great commission'.

I guess I'm missing your point.

 

[HankD]

I don't understand the rationale of the question as there are many examples/mentions of water baptism given in scripture other than your 'great commission'.

I guess I'm missing your point.

Baptizing is part of the GC.
Which according to some is given only to those which Christ authorized in the days of His flesh.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

....Preaching/Teaching, Baptizing, Making Disciples is pretty important.....

Agree.

There's a favorite Old School hymn which chorus is:

"The Lord has been so good to me,
I will on Him depend.
And everyday where ever I be
I would His truth defend'

From my first post; to quote JoJ more fully:

"..How do we best obey Mark's GC? In other words, how do we get the Gospel to "every creature"? Is it even possible? Or is it one of those impossible commands we are to strive to do until we die, never quite making it? (For example, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect."..."

To which I replied:

"Not only possible but a done deal before the NT was even completed:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:17-18

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1:23

25 Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,
26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: Ro 16"

----------------------------------------------------

[Personal attack edited]

10 For as the rain cometh down and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, and giveth seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55

37 For no word from God shall be void of power. Lu 1

Now, observe God's word:

8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1

He didn't say "I want you to try" or "give it your best shot". He told them that they indeed would be His witnesses unto the uttermost part of the earth, which they were.

[Personal attack edited]

 

[John of Japan]

I am still waiting for an answer from those who don't support the "Great Commission" (GC) as to why they baptize not being an authorized recipient of said (GC).

Repeat: Why do those of you who do not support the GC (given to the apostles) practice the command to baptize those who hear and believe the gospel?

My apologies if someone has made an attempt to answer - please give me the reference.

HankD

This is exactly the argument of hyper-dispensationalism, that since baptism is in the GC, and they do not believe the GC is applicable today, then they do not have to baptize (and they don't).

 

[HankD]

This is exactly the argument of hyper-dispensationalism, that since baptism is in the GC, and they do not believe the GC is applicable today, then they do not have to baptize (and they don't).

Indeed John, my firstborn son briefly attended such a church.

HankD

 

[John of Japan]

Indeed John, my firstborn son briefly attended such a church.

HankD

The Berean Society headquarters is the next town over, so I've interacted a little with an adherent.

 

[John of Japan]

I kept meaning to get back to this thread. There is one thing left unsaid, the multiplication principle. If the soul-winner/evangelist/pastor seeks to reach every single soul ("every creature") in a given area himself, it is possible but daunting. On the other hand, if as part of the discipleship process he teaches the new believer to be a soul-winner, and that one is trained to teach others to do the same, "every creature" can be reached.

I believe this is how Paul reached the world of his day, not by preaching to every creature himself, but by training others to do so, thus multiplying the effect rather than just adding.

And now an anecdote. In Japan, which is a Gospel-resistant country and therefore there are few converts, I would try to reach every house in an area one way or another to obey Mark 16:15. I was on my last day to reach the Yokodai area of Yokohama, around 9000 homes.

One house was on a hill, with a very long staircase of 6" stairs, but my feet are 12" size 12s. I ran up, but then on the way down, 3 steps at a time, I twisted my ankle terribly. Fortunately I was out on a motor scooter and was able to get home easily, but I was out for days. Believe me, though, I finished those 9000 homes after my ankle got better, thus doing my best to get the Gospel to "every creature."

 

[John of Japan]

I am defending God's truth here by countering JoJ's insinuation the it was an impossible command which had never been fulfilled. Does JoJ not believe these truths?

Quit lying about me, intimating that I don't believe the Bible. I never said nor insinuated any such thing. That part you quoted was the OP, for crying out loud, not my doctrinal statement. It was designed to provoke thought and discussion.

This kind of attack (and your other insult on this thread) are exactly why I keep you on "Ignore." And now, back you go.

 

[kyredneck]

This kind of attack (and your other insult on this thread) are exactly why I keep you on "Ignore." And now, back you go.

Someone told me once that [Personal attack edited]