Marriage: Authority Granted by God?

[TCassidy]

LOL. Yes I have. If you need more non-Greek help, the Angel's instruction to Joseph wasn't, "Stay engaged," and Matthew 1:24 is not properly understood as "And Joseph stayed engaged to Mary."

And there is that word γυναικα he was looking for earlier. Again.

 

[percho]

To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. Luke 2:5,6

Was Mary at that time the woman/wife promised in marriage to Joseph, and to be known by him or was she at that time married to him and known by him?

Who promised the woman to the man, Adam? Who promised Mary to Joseph? Or does that even matter, relative to the word marriage?

 

[Aaron]

To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. Luke 2:5,6

Was Mary at that time the woman/wife promised in marriage to Joseph, and to be known by him or was she at that time married to him and known by him?

Who promised the woman to the man, Adam? Who promised Mary to Joseph? Or does that even matter, relative to the word marriage?

Mary was Joseph's wife. They were married. They cohabited. They were taxed as husband and wife. The Angel said go ahead with the wedding, and Joseph did as the angel said. But just so we don't think they exercised their nuptial rights while the Child was in the womb, we are told they did not.

They were married. And by virtue of that marriage they were one flesh before there was any sex.

canadyjd is asserting that the sex act is what unites a man and woman in marriage.

 

[Billx]

I think the deeper one looks into this, the worse it gets:

Not one example or command or instruction for the conduct of a marriage "ceremony" is contained anywhere in the Bible. Most Bible instances of a wedding or a marriage were celebrated with a supper or feast after the man and woman consummated their commitment to each other to be married (the rest of the instances were not celebrated at all). Not some priest's (or whatever's) ritualized oath taking and blessing in a religious ceremony. Their yea was yea in their hearts before God as God intended without "swearing" in front of a priest (or whatever). Study Matthew 5:31-37 (James 5:12 too) carefully, it will shed light.

Catholicism adopted this wedding ritual into their system of paganism with Bible labels in the third century. Human government stepped in later and made it a legality. No mention of a writing of marriage is contained in Scripture, only writings of divorce. Divorce is sin because it is a breaking of a couple's word to God. A couple's word was good enough to God to be married but a document declaring that they lied to God was needed to divorce.

Strangely even those groups claiming true faith embrace this pagan ritual as having some meaning to God when the truth is the opposite. God hates it.

The pastor at your church has no more ability to make your marriage legitimate in God's eyes than a court clerk does. Only the yea be yea in your hearts makes it legitimate to God and never an oath before men or a signed legal document.

My recommendation is have the court clerk take your "acknowledgement" and sign your paper (because it is the law of the land) and then head on down to the local Applebee's with relatives and whatnot.

I will end my popularity contest with this: In reality, common-law marriages (if truly committed) are closer to God's intent than ritualistic swearing, oaths or document signing (which violate God's direct commands). No, I am not common law married, just relaying.

In addition, I am not saying that believers who had ceremonies are any less married to God. Their marriage is as legitimate to God as their commitment in their hearts to each other is (chew on that a while). The point is that document, oath or ritual meant nothing to God and was actually sinful when it occurred.

The world loves appearances in all aspects of life and the world mocks God in all aspects of life.

 

[Billx]

Mary was Joseph's wife. They were married. They cohabited. They were taxed as husband and wife. The Angel said go ahead with the wedding, and Joseph did as the angel said. But just so we don't think they exercised their nuptial rights while the Child was in the womb, we are told they did not.

They were married. And by virtue of that marriage they were one flesh before there was any sex.

canadyjd is asserting that the sex act is what unites a man and woman in marriage.

Hebrew practice was to ask the father of the bride accompanied by the dowry. The engagement was a period where groom either built a home or built onto the family home. When they were done and ready to move in together the family feasted then the consummation. On the next visit to the temple the union was registered.

 

[Billx]

Historically marriages were contracts between families.

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Mary was Joseph's wife. They were married. They cohabited. They were taxed as husband and wife. The Angel said go ahead with the wedding, and Joseph did as the angel said. But just so we don't think they exercised their nuptial rights while the Child was in the womb, we are told they did not.

They were married. And by virtue of that marriage they were one flesh before there was any
Hebrew practice was to ask the father of the bride accompanied by the dowry. The engagement was a period where groom either built a home or built onto the family home. When they were done and ready to move in together the family feasted then the consummation. On the next visit to the temple the union was registered.

#65A moment ago

 

[Aaron]

Hebrew practice was to ask the father of the bride accompanied by the dowry. The engagement was a period where groom either built a home or built onto the family home. When they were done and ready to move in together the family feasted then the consummation. On the next visit to the temple the union was registered.

And?

 

[Billx]

Mary was Joseph's wife. They were married. They cohabited. They were taxed as husband and wife. The Angel said go ahead with the wedding, and Joseph did as the angel said. But just so we don't think they exercised their nuptial rights while the Child was in the womb, we are told they did not.

They were married. And by virtue of that marriage they were one flesh before there was any sex.

canadyjd is asserting that the sex act is what unites a man and woman in marriage.

Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary. She delivered prior to the date expected. People thought her a fallen woman but Joseph kept her and did not put her away. With the child inside it is doubtful Joseph took her to his bed. I am sure he took her to a home prepared for her. This prefigures Jesus taking us to a home he is prepared for his bride. In both cases the consummation follows.
You see the Hebrew pattern in the Mary story, Hebrew history and the bride in second coming. The statement we use in the wedding where Jesus attended and beautified should be enough for our justification of a public celebration

 

[canadyjd]

...canadyjd is asserting that the sex act is what unites a man and woman in marriage.

Actually, the Apostle Paul stated in 1 Cor 6 that having s*x with prostitute makes you "one flesh" with her. He then quoted the Genesis passage concerning the establishment of marriage to make his point.

 

[canadyjd]

He is using an absurdity to condemn the unfaithful conduct. Paul often used extreme sarcasm in his condemnation of sin.

-concerning the 1 Cor 6 passage- Again, I appreciate the input. I disagree that Paul is using extreme sarcasm in this passage. First, Paul quotes the Genesis passage to support his statement. Second, he then goes on to to state the sin goes beyond their own bodies and relationship with God, affected the body of Christ...i.e. the fellowship/church.

Concerning the use of "guna" in Luke...how is that word parsed? Thanks again

 

[TCassidy]

Concerning the use of "guna" in Luke...how is that word parsed? Thanks again

It is a noun in the dative, singular, feminine.

 

[percho]

Mary was Joseph's wife. They were married. They cohabited. They were taxed as husband and wife. The Angel said go ahead with the wedding, and Joseph did as the angel said. But just so we don't think they exercised their nuptial rights while the Child was in the womb, we are told they did not.

They were married. And by virtue of that marriage they were one flesh before there was any sex.

canadyjd is asserting that the sex act is what unites a man and woman in marriage.

Relative to what the angel told him, did Joseph have any nuptial rights or did he have betrothal rights?

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:18
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,”[fn] which is translated, “God with us.” 22,23

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[fn] of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Gal 4:4,5

Was to be born of a virgin, law?

What brought about the need to be redeemed? When did that take place?

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.John 6:63 Is the word of God the tree of life?

Whose words are the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the tree that brings death, the need of redemption.

Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15

What happened when they ate of the wrong tree? Who was the first virgin who could bring forth Immanuel?

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.Ps 51:5

Is that relative all the way back to Cain and Abel? Names in the bible have meaning, I asked Bro Tom concerning the following verse. I will use YLT because it hasn't added what translators consider useful words.

Genesis 4:1 And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceiveth and beareth Cain, and saith, 'I have gotten a man by Jehovah;'

Did Joseph eat of the word of the God whereas Adam ate of the word of Satan?

I asked either in this thread or another:

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Gen 2:23
Was the woman betrothed to the man or married to him at this time?
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Gen 3:7
Was the woman betrothed to the man or married to him at this time?

BTW, I am just asking, relative to the word of God, does this make sense? I have never read it anywhere or heard it. It is just what has come to me. Some things just seem to fit together.

 

[Aaron]

Not sure whether or not these questions are rhetorical, but . . .

Relative to what the angel told him, did Joseph have any nuptial rights or did he have betrothal rights?

They lived and traveled together. That seems to answer that question.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Gen 2:23
Was the woman betrothed to the man or married to him at this time?

Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh." Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[percho]

Not sure whether or not these questions are rhetorical, but . . .

They lived and traveled together. That seems to answer that question.

Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh." Seems pretty clear to me.

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

The, "bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh," had nothing to do with them being one flesh.

Was the woman who God took from the man, as his help meet, a virgin at that moment? Was she a virgin when they were both naked and unashamed?

Now for rhetorical questions?

Relative to Matt 1:23-25, the moment the man and the woman taken from him, became one flesh, did that negate the woman (Eve) as the mother of the Christ, foreordained before the foundation of the world to be born of woman, born under the law for the purpose of redemption?

As a matter of fact would not communing with Satan, eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, being tempted, see James 1 be the very thing that brought about the need for redemption?

Was Adam created carnal (of the flesh), sold under sin (given a law)?
If the answer is yes would that establish the following? Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

Would that hope be, in the fullness of time a man knew not his betrothed woman until she froth forth her first born son, born under the law?

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalm 51:5
Did this apply all the way back to the first children born? Why? They were commanded to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.
Was God trespassed against in the first, one flesh?

Why?

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

What was the devil doing in the garden where God put the man he had created and then took the woman from him?

Who was God, out to destroy and how was he going to destroy, him?

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Will someone please show me in scripture where Pastors are given authority by God to pronounce a couple to be married?

John 2:1-12 King James Version (KJV)
And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

Being that God ordained marriage, God attended "a marriage", and God plans a big wedding for His Son and the "Bride of Christ" why wouldn't He want Christians to HONOUR the institution of marriage and the symbolism of His future "wedding" by having a preacher of the Gospel perform a ceremony? I mean, aren't we to honor God in everything we do? I say., thank God for weddings and for PREACHERS presiding over them.

 

[annsni]

The woman at the well that met Jesus said that she had no husband and Jesus agreed with her that she had no husband but she had numerous husbands before and the man she was with right now was not her husband (giving the impression that they were "living together" and having relations but not being married). Here is a case of a couple sleeping together and Jesus Himself not considering it a marriage.

 

[Aaron]

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

The, "bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh," had nothing to do with them being one flesh.

Was the woman who God took from the man, as his help meet, a virgin at that moment? Was she a virgin when they were both naked and unashamed?

... the LORD God ... brought her unto the man.​

God 'walked her down the ailse' so to speak.

... And Adam said, This is now [not before, and not after sex] bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh ...​

Here, Adam makes a pledge to the woman, and gives her his name.

In this wedding ceremony, Adam and Eve became one flesh.

 

[canadyjd]

The woman at the well that met Jesus said that she had no husband and Jesus agreed with her that she had no husband but she had numerous husbands before and the man she was with right now was not her husband (giving the impression that they were "living together" and having relations but not being married). Here is a case of a couple sleeping together and Jesus Himself not considering it a marriage.

Jesus told the woman to go get her husband.Jesus seems to be saying she had a husband out there somewhere. He then told her she had had five husbands.

Jesus did not say she had been married and divorced 5 times, but that she had had 5 husbands.

Several ways to look at that, I suppose. She had been married and divorced 5 times. That seems unlikely to me, given the culture, and that isnt what Jesus said.

That she had been with 5 men who were the husbands of other women. Could be, i guess, but Jesus indicates the 5 men were each a husband to her, not to other women.

She had no husband and the man she was with was not her husband.

Seems to me Jesus is telling her she does have a husband. The first man she became one flesh with. She then had relations with 5 other men, becoming one flesh - husband and wife- and the last one that she was currently with was not her original husband. The original bond of marriage had been broken by her unfaithfulness.

Jesus is trying to get her to understand the true nature of the marriage relationship and her need to repent for her undaithfulness to her husband.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

You could look at that from a different angle too. Jesus, being God, knew all about this woman before he came to the well. So He told her to "bring thine husband" but ONLY to elicit an answer from her. Some of those husbands could have died but it's not likely that all did. She may have just been PUT AWAY by those 5 husbands; but it does not say that either. But if God called the first 5 "husbands", that's what they were; "husbands". The lady was married 5 times. Maybe she had given up having a real "husband" after the fifth. This didn't take place in modern women's-lib America as it was a time when women were often considered property and treated as such. The point of the story, is that she had finally found a "MAN" who really cared enough about her, to tell her "all things that ever I did" and she BELIEVED on Him saying "is not this the Christ?" She had finally found the "man" she could trust to LOVE HER. And "repentance" for her, would have been discontinuing that illicit relationship immediately as she had found the love and peace she had longed for all along.. And I'm sure she did.

 

[canadyjd]

SheepWhisperer: Very interesting the idea that Jesus was telling her that he was the one she could trust. I don't really doubt that.

The thread is considering the concept of marriage (whether you need a pastor to say certain things or is it something more simple) and one flesh in reference to the 1 Cor 6 passage where Paul tells us that if you bond with a prostitute you become one flesh with her. He then quotes that Genesis passage establishing marriage and the one flesh statement.

Thanks for the input