marriage not historically religious

[billwald]

Marriage was origionally a civil contract between tribal leaders made for economic and political reasons.

Isaac Saw Rebecca - who had been imported by his father - took her into a tent ane peformed the marriage ceremony on her in secret.

Jesus didn't go to the wedding to officiate as a rabbi. He went to a party.

The Roman govt began to register marriages because a Roman citizenship was very valuable and falsly claiming it was a death penalty.

After the Roman govt collapsed the Orthodox Catholic Church assumed several govt jobs including registering marriages.

After the Church began to register marriage they added the religous ceremony as a requirement (recruiting tactic?) and it soon became a sacremant.

 

[TisHerself]

Originally posted by billwald:
Marriage was origionally a civil contract between tribal leaders made for economic and political reasons.

Isaac Saw Rebecca - who had been imported by his father - took her into a tent ane peformed the marriage ceremony on her in secret.

Jesus didn't go to the wedding to officiate as a rabbi. He went to a party.

The Roman govt began to register marriages because a Roman citizenship was very valuable and falsly claiming it was a death penalty.

After the Roman govt collapsed the Orthodox Catholic Church assumed several govt jobs including registering marriages.

After the Church began to register marriage they added the religous ceremony as a requirement (recruiting tactic?) and it soon became a sacremant.

Beautifully put, billwald!

Give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and give unto God what belongs to God.

Caesar wants a ceremony (ceremoney is more like it) to divise ways of taxation.

Many so called Christian religions today hold ceremonies that are Pagan at best. And how many of you celebrate Christ's birth with a Pagan Tree of Life?

Hmmmmm?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I believe it is not a certificate, a state license, or even solemnization in a ceremony that creates a marriage. It is a commitment, entered into freely and consensually, based on love and respect.

Now there are religious-based marriages and civil marriages. Both are legally valid and binding contracts, but have little to do with the foundation of a marriage relationship, and little to do with one another. The church and state could recognize or not recognize marriages that the other performs, however our customs and laws are such that they have such reciprocity.

 

[TexasSky]

Interesting take on things.
Just out of curiosity. How do you explain why, when Abraham lied and pretended Sarah was his sister instead of his wife, God threatened to kill the man who tried to take her as wife, and chastized Abraham for the lie?
Why did Joseph worry about Mary's virginity?
Why does it make a very large distinction in the story of David between his wives and the wives of those he conquers? Or of Uriah's wife?

Stop trying to explain away fornication.

If you are not willing to proclaim your spouse before the church and men, you don't deserve them.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Stop trying to explain away fornication.

If you are not willing to proclaim your spouse before the church and men, you don't deserve them.

TS, I believe you are addressing all of the posters so far, but I don't see anyone trying to "explain away fornication". Where did that come from?

We were discussing people making a lifetime commitment to one another, not just seeking an excuse for a roll in the hay.

There is nothing magic about a ceremony that makes sex acceptable. It is the love and commitment. I don't need a ceremony, a license or any other accoutrements of mankind to bind me to my wife (although we had those things). I proudly present her to the world as my love, my partner in life's journey, and my wife of 31 years. This has nothing to do with fornication.

 

[dianetavegia]

I'm very sorry to say we have a number of members who are living together, have numerous children and are not legally married.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.

Titus 3:1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by billwald:
Marriage was origionally a civil contract between tribal leaders made for economic and political reasons.

The first person ever to be called a wife was Eve which is in the Bible, so therefore, marriage is historically religious, not a civil contract as you suggest.

Gen.2
[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

 

[carpro]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by billwald:
Marriage was origionally a civil contract between tribal leaders made for economic and political reasons.

The first person ever to be called a wife was Eve which is in the Bible, so therefore, marriage is historically religious, not a civil contract as you suggest.

Gen.2
[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. </font>[/QUOTE]I believe one has to be male and the other female to accomplish the "one flesh" part of God's plan.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
The first person ever to be called a wife was Eve which is in the Bible, so therefore, marriage is historically religious, not a civil contract as you suggest.

Gen.2
[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Not sure I follow you here, LadyEagle.
The fact that it was mentioned in no way implies that this is a religious ceremony, or that it is not a civil contract.

Hope you are well,

BiR

 

[mioque]

I'm agreeing with billwald on this.
I've

it all before.

 

[The Carpinator]

Originally posted by TisHerself:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by billwald:
Marriage was origionally a civil contract between tribal leaders made for economic and political reasons.

Isaac Saw Rebecca - who had been imported by his father - took her into a tent ane peformed the marriage ceremony on her in secret.

Jesus didn't go to the wedding to officiate as a rabbi. He went to a party.

The Roman govt began to register marriages because a Roman citizenship was very valuable and falsly claiming it was a death penalty.

After the Roman govt collapsed the Orthodox Catholic Church assumed several govt jobs including registering marriages.

After the Church began to register marriage they added the religous ceremony as a requirement (recruiting tactic?) and it soon became a sacremant.

Beautifully put, billwald!

Give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and give unto God what belongs to God.

Caesar wants a ceremony (ceremoney is more like it) to divise ways of taxation.

Many so called Christian religions today hold ceremonies that are Pagan at best. And how many of you celebrate Christ's birth with a Pagan Tree of Life?

Hmmmmm? </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[computerjunkie]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
I'm very sorry to say we have a number of members who are living together, have numerous children and are not legally married.

Diane, this comment has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion on this thread and, personally, I think you are wrong to mention it. Just exactly what is your point in bringing this to everyone's attention? I don't recall any BB "rule" that says one must be "legally married" in order to be a member.

CJ

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Maybe not CJ, but a person who is a born again Christian ought to know better than those in the world, and, supposedly, all of us who are members here are born again Christians, at least we profess to be.

Those who post in Baptist only forums especially ought to be living by godly principles. I have never seen a Baptist church that would allow an unmarried couple, who are living together or having relations, to be members of their church. Such folks should certainly recuse themselves from these discussions.

btw, it was brought up because fornication was brought up in an earlier post.

 

[TisHerself]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Interesting take on things.
Just out of curiosity. How do you explain why, when Abraham lied and pretended Sarah was his sister instead of his wife, God threatened to kill the man who tried to take her as wife, and chastized Abraham for the lie?
Why did Joseph worry about Mary's virginity?
Why does it make a very large distinction in the story of David between his wives and the wives of those he conquers? Or of Uriah's wife?

Stop trying to explain away fornication.

If you are not willing to proclaim your spouse before the church and men, you don't deserve them.

That is a Christian belief. God gave everyone the right to believe that or not. It is not our business to force that upon anyone else. Fornication is a sin and it will be dealt with BY GOD! It's not up to you or anyone else, so get off your high horse.

 

[Rachel]

Originally posted by computerjunkie:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dianetavegia:
I'm very sorry to say we have a number of members who are living together, have numerous children and are not legally married.

Diane, this comment has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion on this thread and, personally, I think you are wrong to mention it. Just exactly what is your point in bringing this to everyone's attention? I don't recall any BB "rule" that says one must be "legally married" in order to be a member.

CJ </font>[/QUOTE]I agree. What was the point of that Diane?

 

[dianetavegia]

What was the point?

Marriage was origionally a civil contract between tribal leaders made for economic and political reasons.

A LEGAL marriage in the United States includes a marriage license through the state and MANY states refuse to accept 'common law' marriages.

Scripture says:

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.

Titus 3:1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

1 Thessalonians 5:16-22
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

The testimony of those who live in sin is ruined, in my personal opinion. Our law says we need a 'piece of paper' and scripture tells us to be 'subject to the law'. Sounds clear enough to me.

Also, to make this a 'non issue' among Christians on a Christian board is the same as telling our youth to go have sex with anyone they 'think they love' because they're 'married in God's eyes'.

Diane

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Baptist in Richmond:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LadyEagle:
The first person ever to be called a wife was Eve which is in the Bible, so therefore, marriage is historically religious, not a civil contract as you suggest.

Gen.2
[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Not sure I follow you here, LadyEagle.
The fact that it was mentioned in no way implies that this is a religious ceremony, or that it is not a civil contract.

Hope you are well,

BiR </font>[/QUOTE]Well let's see If I can clarify it for you BIR.

God, That would be The Creator, Father, Lord, etc; certainly recognized as a Religious Figure, Created the Universe.

When a Religious Figure creates something out of nothing is what He created religious in nature or secular in nature?

When He created Man and then Created Woman to be his Helpmate was this relationship he had in mind religious or secular in nature?

 

[TisHerself]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
What was the point?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Marriage was origionally a civil contract between tribal leaders made for economic and political reasons.

A LEGAL marriage in the United States includes a marriage license through the state and MANY states refuse to accept 'common law' marriages.

Scripture says:

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.

Titus 3:1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

1 Thessalonians 5:16-22
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

The testimony of those who live in sin is ruined, in my personal opinion. Our law says we need a 'piece of paper' and scripture tells us to be 'subject to the law'. Sounds clear enough to me.

Also, to make this a 'non issue' among Christians on a Christian board is the same as telling our youth to go have sex with anyone they 'think they love' because they're 'married in God's eyes'.

Diane </font>[/QUOTE]I don't see how it is telling our youth any such thing. Also, if you take that scripture and apply it to today's law, I guess you are saying that since abortion is currently legal, it is sanctioned by God! I hardly think so.

 

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by TisHerself:
I don't see how it is telling our youth any such thing. Also, if you take that scripture and apply it to today's law, I guess you are saying that since abortion is currently legal, it is sanctioned by God! I hardly think so.

God's law always takes precedence over man's law and NO WHERE does it say 'tho shalt not marry or get a piece of paper to marry'. It does say 'thou shalt not kill' and includes adultery, fornication, etc. Of course, I'm not into Metal bands either and don't think God much would care for them either.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
What was the point?

Scripture says:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.

Diane </font>[/QUOTE]So Diane, according to these verses, had you been living in Germany in the 1930s-1940s you would have been bound by God to support the Third Reich? They were the legitimate government, and must have been given that authority by God. To not support them and their genocide of Jews would have been to rebel against the almighty.

Please explain. You have me a bit confused here.