Martin Luther/Adolf Hitler

[Blank]

And that's why I usually don't bother arguing w/ Catholics. Justification is not the same between Catholics and Protestants: infused vs. imputed Justification. We use the same theological terms, but the theological meanings are not the same.

Agreed. But you never know when God's Spirit might convict them of the truth.
Besides, if I understand them correctly, justification doesn't happen until after this life, (justification and sanctification become truncated into one,iow, there is no assurance of one's salvation, it's very similar to Islam in that regard.

 

[Christforums]

Agreed. But you never know when God's Spirit might convict them of the truth.
Besides, if I understand them correctly, justification doesn't happen until after this life, (justification and sanctification become truncated into one,iow, there is no assurance of one's salvation, it's very similar to Islam in that regard.

The Catholic believes glorification happens in the life of man where the Protestant view is sanctification is a life long process, and glorification occurs after death in life eternal. Catholics are synergism in theology, believing a man must pull himself up halfway by his bootstraps to G-d before G-d finishes what He was powerless to accomplish until then.

Synergism is a cooperation between man and G-d (and why the emphasis of works)
Monergism or monergistic works are the works of G-d alone.


Really, "alone" was warranted in the 5 solas in the context of the leaning away from Monergism. If the argument "alone" is not found in the bible then quite using the term bible for it too is not in the Scriptures. In all seriousness "alone", was used in the context of church theology.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Ohhhh, you've switched to 'saved', I'm still on 'justification'.

Can one be saved without being justified? Can one be justified and still end up condemned? But God still justifies the ungodly without works (Romans 4:5).

Acts Chapter 16:31

Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house

Right on! The Philippian jailor was justified by grace through faith. Or do you think he was 'only' saved and not justified? But 'do you not know that the unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of God?' (1 Cor. 6:9). 'But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.'

No man can come to me (Total Depravity or inability) John 6:44. Spurgeon poses an impossible hypothetical in the natural man (he must not refer to the natural man or he is wrong). Pelagianism does not believe in original sin and grants man his own ability by his own strength. If any man wills themselves to G-d then that man is saved - that's synergism and requires cooperation, G-d in the synergistic view can only meet man halfway. No man can come to G-d apart from the works of G-d. The entire Ordo Salutis is monergism including the timing of regeneration in the life of the dead in sin and trespasses.

Soli Deo Gloria

Spurgeon was calling all men to Christ, as I do when I'm preaching (just not as well as Spurgeon). Like Spurgeon, I am a 5 point Calvinist. All men and women without exception are called to repent and trust in Christ (Mark 1:15; Matt. 11:28; John 6:40), but when they come to Christ, they will eventually find that God has loved them from eternity and drawn them to Himself with lovingkindness (Jer. 31:3). BTW, John 6:40 cannot and does not contradict John 6:39 or John 6:44.

 

[Christforums]

Can one be saved without being justified? Can one be justified and still end up condemned? But God still justifies the ungodly without works (Romans 4:5).

Right on! The Philippian jailor was justified by grace through faith. Or do you think he was 'only' saved and not justified? But 'do you not know that the unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of God?' (1 Cor. 6:9). 'But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.'

Spurgeon was calling all men to Christ, as I do when I'm preaching (just not as well as Spurgeon). Like Spurgeon, I am a 5 point Calvinist. All men and women without exception are called to repent and trust in Christ (Mark 1:15; Matt. 11:28; John 6:40), but when they come to Christ, they will eventually find that God has loved them from eternity and drawn them to Himself with lovingkindness (Jer. 31:3). BTW, John 6:40 cannot and does not contradict John 6:39 or John 6:44.

Surely, even Judas Iscariot could come and walk right up to Jesus Christ (John 6:44). I believe Regeneration precedes faith, the faith of the Jailer was counted to him in the process of Justification - Soli Deo Gloria.

The line of questioning, "Can one be saved without being justified? Can one be justified and still end up condemned? But God still justifies the ungodly without works (Romans 4:5)."without being justified? No, yes (application), yes (monergism).

Thank you for clarifying!
William

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Remember, Luther retracted his former works.

First I've heard of this. Please provide supporting documentation. Even so, he could not restore what was destroyed. Hitler never got the word!

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Would not the following actions be considered expressions of love in the eyes of man?

Prophesying in the Lord's; Casting out devils; doing wonderful works.

Not so in the Lord's eyes.

[Mat 7:21-23 KJV] 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[1Sa 16:7 KJV] 7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

 

[Christforums]

First I've heard of this. Please provide supporting documentation. Even so, he could not restore what was destroyed. Hitler never got the word!

I will look for his works but it isn't as easy as finding something to smear Luther. Remember these 16th century men held no punches, and if Luther was antisemitic (he wasn't, Luther was anti-Judaism) then he treated Catholics and their esteemed Popes even worst (they were the anti-christs). We can't read the works of these early Reformers under the lens of modern times and define terms in the 16th century as we define today like the term antisemitic. Luther obviously loved the Jew Jesus of Nazareth.

Like Calvin, Luther would blowtorch a modern snowflake and compel them to find some safe space to go and commit suicide. Like Luther, Calvin often referred to people as dead dogs and questioned why walk across the street to kick a dead dog? Men weren't like men today caring most about the moment or how they feel in the moment. Men in the 16th century faced the death penalty for speaking out against or going against peoples in office or of power, or the popular narrative of the day.

Luther wrote to accept Jews as brethren and to accept them cordially, that's where I'd look to find his works which contradict modern claims of antisemitism.

That Jesus Christ was born a Jew, by Martin Luther:

If I had been a Jew and had seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would sooner have become a hog than a Christian. They have dealt with the Jews as if they were dogs rather than human beings; they have done little else than deride them and seize their property. When they baptize them they show them nothing of Christian doctrine or life, but only subject them to popishness and mockery...If the apostles, who also were Jews, had dealt with us Gentiles as we Gentiles deal with the Jews, there would never have been a Christian among the Gentiles ... When we are inclined to boast of our position [as Christians] we should remember that we are but Gentiles, while the Jews are of the lineage of Christ. We are aliens and in-laws; they are blood relatives, cousins, and brothers of our Lord. Therefore, if one is to boast of flesh and blood the Jews are actually nearer to Christ than we are...If we really want to help them, we must be guided in our dealings with them not by papal law but by the law of Christian love. We must receive them cordially, and permit them to trade and work with us, that they may have occasion and opportunity to associate with us, hear our Christian teaching, and witness our Christian life. If some of them should prove stiff-necked, what of it? After all, we ourselves are not all good Christians either.

That doesn't sound Antisemitic as defined by modern snowflakes. However, I wouldn't be asking today whether Luther was antisemitic but rather ask whether what he wrote was true. The works of Luther above really do convey the historical context and the issues of the times. Liberalism (Nazi Germany) was notorious for taking things out of context. If Nazi Germany could be credited anything it would be the contribution to advance liberalism in the form of post-modernism to combat fundamentalism.

 

[Blank]

Would not the following actions be considered expressions of love in the eyes of man?

Prophesying in the Lord's; Casting out devils; doing wonderful works.

Not so in the Lord's eyes.

[Mat 7:21-23 KJV] 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

With these folks it's apparent that their hope was in what they did, not in what Christ did.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Luther wrote to accept Jews as brethren and to accept them cordially, that's where I'd look to find his works which contradict modern claims of antisemitism.

That Jesus Christ was born a Jew, by Martin Luther:

That doesn't sound Antisemitic as defined by modern snowflakes. However, I wouldn't be asking today whether Luther was antisemitic but rather ask whether what he wrote was true. The works of Luther above really do convey the historical context and the issues of the times. Liberalism (Nazi Germany) was notorious for taking things out of context. If Nazi Germany could be credited anything it would be the contribution to advance liberalism in the form of post-modernism to combat fundamentalism.

" I wouldn't be asking today whether Luther was antisemitic but rather ask whether what he wrote was true."???

Quotes from On Jews and Their Lies by Martin Luther: (the anti-Jew)?

“First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians.”

“Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed.”

“Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.”

“Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb.”

“Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews.”

“Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping.”

“We are at fault in not slaying them.”

History shows Adolf Hitler took him at his word.

 

[Christforums]

" I wouldn't be asking today whether Luther was antisemitic but rather ask whether what he wrote was true."???

Quotes from On Jews and Their Lies by Martin Luther: (the anti-Jew)?

“First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians.”

“Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed.”

“Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.”

“Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb.”

“Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews.”

“Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping.”

“We are at fault in not slaying them.”

History shows Adolf Hitler took him at his word.

Context is key, these things were occurring before Luther wrote his "Lutheran" works.

If a snowflake is looking for antisemitism let me point you to a .357 to your temple and blow the bullet out of your ear.

Again, was what Martin Luther said untrue? And I couldn't care less how anybody feels about the truth!!!

 

[Cathode]

The FRUIT of the Spirit is love and all the rest. First comes the Holy Spirit, and then comes the fruit. But Christ justifies the "ungodly.
'For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness' (Romans 4:3-5).

What are you going to tell some poor guy who comes to you asking, "What must I do to be saved?"? "Go and work up some love! Go and do some good works, then come back and ask me again, because Christ only justifies the righteous."? What does the Scripture say? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved...." (Acts 16:31).

Now, let's get this business about James and Paul out of the way. They cannot be contradicting themselves. Justification is a legal term; it means to declare someone righteous (Deut. 25:1). Paul is talking about God declaring us righteous on the basis of Christ's active and passive obedience on our behalf. James is talking about how our works as Christians declare us to have been justified by faith. As I have written more than once, good deeds will always follow faith (Romans 6:1-2; 1 John 3:16-17). If they don't, then it throws into doubt his salvation. But at the point of salvation, it is purely grace alone, by faith alone, through Christ alone, according to the Scripture alone, according to the Scripture alone.

Here's the great Baptist preacher C.H. Spurgeon speaking:
'Sinners, let me address you with the words of life. Jesus wants nothing from you, nothing whatsoever, nothing done, nothing felt; He gives both work and feeling. Ragged, penniless, just as you are, lost, forsaken, desolate, with no good feelings, and no good hopes, still Jesus comes to you, and in these words of pity he addresses you: "Him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out"' (John 6:37).

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

People are judged by their Love, their good works or lack of them.

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

Our good works are not rags, but loving service to Christ Himself, recounted by Christ at our Judgement, even if we forget and have to ask ‘when’, He remembers everything you did for others as service to Him.

“Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Even people with faith to recognise Jesus as Lord will not enter the Kingdom, but the ones who do The Will of The Father, which is to Love.

 

[Christforums]

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

People are judged by their Love, their good works or lack of them.

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

Our good works are not rags, but loving service to Christ Himself, recounted by Christ at our Judgement, even if we forget and have to ask ‘when’, He remembers everything you did for others as service to Him.

“Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Even people with faith to recognise Jesus as Lord will not enter the Kingdom, but the ones who do The Will of The Father, which to Love.

All Catholics are blotted out from the book of life because they bowed down and confessed Frank the Hippie Pope and his Babylonian whore.

I hate them w/ a perfect hatred. And that's not self-righteous <--- Pelagian.

That's the modern-day response of 16th century Reformers.

 

[Cathode]

All Catholics are blotted out from the book of life because they bowed down and confessed Frank the Hippie Pope and his Babylonian whore.

I hate them w/ a perfect hatred. And that's not self-righteous <--- Pelagian.

That's the modern-day response of 16th century Reformers.

Perfect hatred for anyone drives out all Love. God can not abide with that.

“Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love”

 

[Christforums]

Perfect hatred for anyone drives out all Love. God can not abide with that.

“Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love”

God is Holy Love, that is not Worldly Love w/ all your rainbow and unicorns.
The summation of all characteristics and attributes of G-d are Holy.
In other words, God cannot love at the expense of His justice. For all his characteristics in summation are holy.

You can stick your worldly love where the world doesn't shine.
David hates with perfect hatred. In other words, David hates those that oppose the L-rd no matter what your pap smear says.

Psalm 139:22, “I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.” Self-righteous? No, note who David hates, Psalm 139:21, “Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?” That’s right! David hates those that hate the L-rd, count them his enemies.

You and your church are my enemy. You were schooled by a plowboy. William Tyndale, the first person to translate and print the New Testament in English, once said: “If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy who drives a plough to know more of the scriptures than you do.”

Please school me in the various ways the Barbarians express love in Greek or especially Hebrew. You appeal to rationalism in typical Western fashionist approach.
My point being is that many arguments sound good, that is, they sound logical but are built on false premise. Catholic doctrine is based on the offices of man; therefore, the doctrines are manmade and fallible.

 

[Cathode]

God is Holy Love, that is not Worldly Love.
The summation of all characteristics and attributes of G-d are Holy
In other words God cannot love at the expense of His justice.

You can stick your worldly love where the world doesn't shine.
David hates with perfect hatred. In other words, David hates those that oppose the L-rd no matter what your pap smear says.

Psalm 139:22, “I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.” Self-righteous? No, note who David hates, Psalm 139:21, “Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?” That’s right! David hates those that hate the L-rd, count them his enemies.

You are exuding great hatred that’s suitable for the eye for and eye culture of the Old Covenant.
But hatred does not enter the Kingdom of the New Covenant.

If the least in The Kingdom is greater John the greatest man, there is no place for a hater in the Kingdom.

Hatred of others is not of the Kingdom. Be told.

Think the better of it and change now, before you become hardened in it.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. ”

Haters are not children of the Father.

 

[Cathode]

You and your church are my enemy.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.”

Haters aren’t children of The Father, they are outside the walls nashing their teeth.

Don’t do it mate, think the better of it.

If you find yourself hating, stop, and recognise the state you are in and repent of it.
Do not try to justify it and harden yourself in it.

Take quiet time out to be with Jesus, and pray on it mate.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Surely, even Judas Iscariot could come and walk right up to Jesus Christ (John 6:44). I believe Regeneration precedes faith, the faith of the Jailer was counted to him in the process of Justification - Soli Deo Gloria.

God must first open the heart of the sinner before he or she will come to Christ. 'Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us ..... The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul' (Acts 16:14). But the reason for that is that by nature people's hearts are wicked and unbelieving (1 Cor. 2:14). But Paul did not tell Lydia, "First go and do a pile of good deeds and then come back. No, Lydia was justified by grace alone through faith alone; she received the Holy Spirit and the good deeds just came naturally after that (Acts 16:15).

The line of questioning, "Can one be saved without being justified? Can one be justified and still end up condemned? But God still justifies the ungodly without works (Romans 4:5).

No one can be saved without being justified (declared righteous by God on the basis of Jesus' obedience and atoning death - Romans 8:31-32); no one who He has justified will be condemned (Romans 8:33-34). And yes, God still justifies the ungodly without works - the works will follow as they did with Lydia,

"without being justified? No, yes (application), yes (monergism).

Sorry! I don't understand this.

Thank you for clarifying!
William

You're welcome!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

People are judged by their Love, their good works or lack of them.

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

Our good works are not rags, but loving service to Christ Himself, recounted by Christ at our Judgement, even if we forget and have to ask ‘when’, He remembers everything you did for others as service to Him.

“Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Even people with faith to recognise Jesus as Lord will not enter the Kingdom, but the ones who do The Will of The Father, which is to Love.

This is like teaching an elephant to climb a tree! Listen! One more time.........
We are not justified by works, we are justified by God on the basis of Christ's good works. BUT, having been justified by grace alone through faith alone, the good works will follow (Ephesians 2:10). And if there are no good works following, it does indeed call into question whether we were justified at all (1 John 3:16-17; Matthew 25:41ff). Any good deeds we may do before conversion are indeed like filthy rags before God because they are mired with sin (Romans 8:8). But after conversion, our good deeds are indeed pleasing to God (Matthew 25:40).
Now surely that is not too difficult to understand?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

All Catholics are blotted out from the book of life because they bowed down and confessed Frank the Hippie Pope and his Babylonian whore.

I hate them w/ a perfect hatred. And that's not self-righteous <--- Pelagian.

That's the modern-day response of 16th century Reformers.

We should not be hating Roman Catholics, but praying for them, and trying to teach them the truth as it is in Christ Jesus.
'And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will' (2 Timothy 2:24-26).

 

[Christforums]

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.”

Haters aren’t children of The Father, they are outside the walls nashing their teeth.

Don’t do it mate, think the better of it.

If you find yourself hating, stop, and recognise the state you are in and repent of it.
Do not try to justify it and harden yourself in it.

Take quiet time out to be with Jesus, and pray on it mate.

"Your" enemies are not necessarily the enemies of the L-rd. To hate your enemies makes a man self-righteous. To hate the enemies of G-d makes a man righteous, because the hatred of G-d is perfect.

1 John 2:15 If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.