Martyn Lloyd-Jones on Romans 5:1

[Yeshua1]

NO. That is not what Paul wrote. You have to stop changing words around and qualifying verses if you want to see what Scripture actually says.

Think of what Paul actually wrote. Think of when Paul actually wrote it. We don't worship three gods - one father god, one son god, and one spirit god. We worship ONE God in three Persons.

Pauline theology specifically teaches that all the fullness of God...of Deity....dwells in Christ bodily. We can't negate that just because we don't like what it says.

God the Son became incarnated, not God the father!

 

[JonC]

ALL of here agree that Jesus was God here upon the earth, but he was God the Son only, not the other 2 Persons of the Trinity!

OK. I think there is an issue with my communication. Let me try this again, because no one has questioned whether you (or anyone else) believes that Jesus IS God.

Do you see a difference between saying "Jesus is fully God" (something we all agree on)

AND

saying that the fullness of Deity dwells in Jesus bodily. (something you seem to reject)?

 

[Yeshua1]

OK. I think there is an issue with my communication. Let me try this again, because no one has questioned whether you (or anyone else) believes that Jesus IS God.

Do you see a difference between saying "Jesus is fully God" (something we all agree on)

AND

saying that the fullness of Deity dwells in Jesus bodily. (something you seem to reject)?

Are you saying that the entire trinity was in the Person of Jesus?

 

[JonC]

Are you saying that the entire trinity was in the Person of Jesus?

"In" the Person of Jesus? No. I am saying that Jesus is the complete revelation of God to man. The Father and Spirit are not revelations of God. Jesus is. God (the One True God) became man and revealed Himself to us. I am saying that there is nothing to know of God that has not been revealed through Christ. What is mystery is so because of the limits of our understanding, not because the fullness of God did not dwell in Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

"In" the Person of Jesus? No. I am saying that Jesus is the complete revelation of God to man. The Father and Spirit are not revelations of God. Jesus is. God (the One True God) became man and revealed Himself to us. I am saying that there is nothing to know of God that has not been revealed through Christ. What is mystery is so because of the limits of our understanding, not because the fullness of God did not dwell in Christ.

When the fullness of God was dwelling in jesus, was God the father still seated in heaven on His throne?

 

[JonC]

When the fullness of God was dwelling in jesus, was God the father still seated in heaven on His throne?

Are you asking if the Father was literally sitting down on a throne?

The Father did not become flesh and swell with man.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

"In" the Person of Jesus? No. I am saying that Jesus is the complete revelation of God to man. The Father and Spirit are not revelations of God. Jesus is. God (the One True God) became man and revealed Himself to us. I am saying that there is nothing to know of God that has not been revealed through Christ. What is mystery is so because of the limits of our understanding, not because the fullness of God did not dwell in Christ.

I think that what Y1 (and I) are concerned about is that you seem to be concentrating on the Oneness of God (with which I fully agree) at the expense of His Threeness.

We can agree that the Lord Jesus is the perfect expression of God (John 1:18). But it is equally true that the Father sends the Son (John 5:23-24); came from Him (John 16:28); returns to Him (John 14:12); receives His commandment (John 10:18); does His will (John 4:34; 6:38); addresses prayer to Him, using the word 'You' as He does so (John 11:41; 17:3; 12:27-28) and speaks of Him as 'He,' 'Him' and Himself' (John 5:19-26).
The Father speaks to the Son, addressing Him as 'You' (Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22); He speaks of the Son, speaking of him as 'Him' (Mark 9:7), and gives an audible reply to one of His prayers (John 12:27-28).
If we read John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:13-15, we find that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit is also a distinct Person. Jesus asks the Father to send Him; the Father sends Him in the Son's name; Jesus sends Him from the Father. The Spirit glorifies the Son and takes what the Father has given to the Son and shows it to the disciples.
In Matthew 3:13-4:1, at the baptism of the Lord Jesus, we see the Trinity and are made aware of the distinction between the Persons; the Son on earth, the Father in heaven and the Spirit descending. There is also the baptismal formula of Matthew 28:19.
All these things show that the Persons of the Trinity are distinct Persons. The Son is not the Father; the Father is not the Son, and neither of them is the Spirit, although there is only one God and that God is not divided. By 'Persons' is meant that there are personal self-distinctions within the divine Being, who use of themselves the word 'I' and of each other the words 'You,' 'He' and 'Him.'

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No, I don’t agree that the Triune God does not hang upon the cross. But this needs qualification.

I do not believe that Jesus is less than the fulness of God (Father, Son, and Spirit). So when we know Jesus I believe we know the Father. I don’t believe there is more of God to know than is revealed in Christ.

That said, what I believe we do see in the Trinity are the actions of the One Triune God manifested in the work of the Persons of the Trinity. The One True God (who is a Triune God) hung on the Cross for our sins. The Son hung on the Cross. I don’t think we can single out the Father and say He hung on the cross and while I would never use the language of the Trinity suffering the cross, I believe this is exactly what occurred. But we only know God through the Son.

On the cross the Son was submissive to the Father. He was speaking to the Father to Whom He prayed. But if God is Triune (and He is) then Jesus is this same God on the cross. You have touched on this concept with your explanation of how it was just for the Father to punish the Son because this was in fact God taking our punishment upon Himself.

Anyway, I hope this helps. I know it may be as clear as mud but we are speaking of One God in three Persons.

Once again, I think you are missing the 'threeness' in your accentuation of the 'Oneness.' God does not grow weary (Isaiah 40:28); the Lord Jesus grew weary (Mark 4:38; John 4:6). God does not need food or drink (Psalms 50:13; Acts 17:25); the Lord Jesus needed both (Matthew 4:2; John 4:7). God cannot die (Revelation 10:6); the Lord Jesus could die (Mark 15:37). The Lord Jesus, who is God, hung upon the cross; the Triune God did not hang upon the cross.

 

[JonC]

Once again, I think you are missing the 'threeness' in your accentuation of the 'Oneness.' God does not grow weary (Isaiah 40:28); the Lord Jesus grew weary (Mark 4:38; John 4:6). God does not need food or drink (Psalms 50:13; Acts 17:25); the Lord Jesus needed both (Matthew 4:2; John 4:7). God cannot die (Revelation 10:6); the Lord Jesus could die (Mark 15:37). The Lord Jesus, who is God, hung upon the cross; the Triune God did not hang upon the cross.

I think you have looked over an important point in my post. I am not arguing temporal (God coming in the likeness of sinful flesh, corruptible) or roles (God in three persons). I am speaking of an ontological sameness. Nothing that makes God God was absent in Christ. The Spirit did not send the Father, and the Father was not incarnate. These speak of "persons" and roles.

But all that God is...the fullness of God....dwells in Christ bodily. To know Christ is to know the One True God. And apart from Christ it is impossible to know God.

 

[JonC]

I think that what Y1 (and I) are concerned about is that you seem to be concentrating on the Oneness of God (with which I fully agree) at the expense of His Threeness.

We can agree that the Lord Jesus is the perfect expression of God (John 1:18). But it is equally true that the Father sends the Son (John 5:23-24); came from Him (John 16:28); returns to Him (John 14:12); receives His commandment (John 10:18); does His will (John 4:34; 6:38); addresses prayer to Him, using the word 'You' as He does so (John 11:41; 17:3; 12:27-28) and speaks of Him as 'He,' 'Him' and Himself' (John 5:19-26).
The Father speaks to the Son, addressing Him as 'You' (Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22); He speaks of the Son, speaking of him as 'Him' (Mark 9:7), and gives an audible reply to one of His prayers (John 12:27-28).
If we read John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:13-15, we find that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit is also a distinct Person. Jesus asks the Father to send Him; the Father sends Him in the Son's name; Jesus sends Him from the Father. The Spirit glorifies the Son and takes what the Father has given to the Son and shows it to the disciples.
In Matthew 3:13-4:1, at the baptism of the Lord Jesus, we see the Trinity and are made aware of the distinction between the Persons; the Son on earth, the Father in heaven and the Spirit descending. There is also the baptismal formula of Matthew 28:19.
All these things show that the Persons of the Trinity are distinct Persons. The Son is not the Father; the Father is not the Son, and neither of them is the Spirit, although there is only one God and that God is not divided. By 'Persons' is meant that there are personal self-distinctions within the divine Being, who use of themselves the word 'I' and of each other the words 'You,' 'He' and 'Him.'

I am focusing on Christ. The reason is because Y1 rejected the idea that the fullness of God dwells in Christ bodily in favor of "Jesus is fully God".

I agree with you concerning activities of the Persons of the Trinity. Christ submitted to the will of the Father. The Father and Son sent the Spirit.

BUT we cannot ignore that God is One either. Otherwise we end up affirming "One God" in theory while holding to three separate gods working in unity in practice.

When we look at Christ we see the One True God in the Person on the Son. Not a Man who is completely God but making up only 1/3 of the One God. We see God - all of God (the fullness of God) in Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think that what Y1 (and I) are concerned about is that you seem to be concentrating on the Oneness of God (with which I fully agree) at the expense of His Threeness.

We can agree that the Lord Jesus is the perfect expression of God (John 1:18). But it is equally true that the Father sends the Son (John 5:23-24); came from Him (John 16:28); returns to Him (John 14:12); receives His commandment (John 10:18); does His will (John 4:34; 6:38); addresses prayer to Him, using the word 'You' as He does so (John 11:41; 17:3; 12:27-28) and speaks of Him as 'He,' 'Him' and Himself' (John 5:19-26).
The Father speaks to the Son, addressing Him as 'You' (Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22); He speaks of the Son, speaking of him as 'Him' (Mark 9:7), and gives an audible reply to one of His prayers (John 12:27-28).
If we read John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:13-15, we find that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit is also a distinct Person. Jesus asks the Father to send Him; the Father sends Him in the Son's name; Jesus sends Him from the Father. The Spirit glorifies the Son and takes what the Father has given to the Son and shows it to the disciples.
In Matthew 3:13-4:1, at the baptism of the Lord Jesus, we see the Trinity and are made aware of the distinction between the Persons; the Son on earth, the Father in heaven and the Spirit descending. There is also the baptismal formula of Matthew 28:19.
All these things show that the Persons of the Trinity are distinct Persons. The Son is not the Father; the Father is not the Son, and neither of them is the Spirit, although there is only one God and that God is not divided. By 'Persons' is meant that there are personal self-distinctions within the divine Being, who use of themselves the word 'I' and of each other the words 'You,' 'He' and 'Him.'

Yes, so in a unique sense it is indeed God Father to whom Jesus had to appease for the sin that we had committed against Him and His Law, as Jesus death satisfied the divine wrath of God the father, not the wrath of Jesus and the Holy Spirit!
Jon C viewpoint on us seeing the father in Jesus and that God was reconciling thru Jesus now did seem to sound like oneness to a degree, at least to me!

 

[Yeshua1]

Once again, I think you are missing the 'threeness' in your accentuation of the 'Oneness.' God does not grow weary (Isaiah 40:28); the Lord Jesus grew weary (Mark 4:38; John 4:6). God does not need food or drink (Psalms 50:13; Acts 17:25); the Lord Jesus needed both (Matthew 4:2; John 4:7). God cannot die (Revelation 10:6); the Lord Jesus could die (Mark 15:37). The Lord Jesus, who is God, hung upon the cross; the Triune God did not hang upon the cross.

Yes, as God Himself in totally did not die, but Jesus physically died!

 

[Yeshua1]

I think you have looked over an important point in my post. I am not arguing temporal (God coming in the likeness of sinful flesh, corruptible) or roles (God in three persons). I am speaking of an ontological sameness. Nothing that makes God God was absent in Christ. The Spirit did not send the Father, and the Father was not incarnate. These speak of "persons" and roles.

But all that God is...the fullness of God....dwells in Christ bodily. To know Christ is to know the One True God. And apart from Christ it is impossible to know God.

Jesus had to die to propiate the wrath of God the Father towards sinners, not to die to satisfy his own Wrath!