Are you also a devilish idolater and devote of Mary who will rise up from the sepulchre now in the resurrection of the dead?=>Daniel 12:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16.
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Mary’s devotion to Jesus
- Thread starter Cathode
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David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Most definitely not! I was just pointing out the thread title, and wondering what connection your post had with it.
Tell that to Paul with his personal experience of Christ. Should he have dismissed it as proving nothing.
One of the hardest things to explain to people at times is the discovery of spiritual realities through personal experience.
Many are either not open or they would not respond when shown.
The moment of grace passes.
Mental prayer or meditation on Jesus life as with the rosary disposes us to grace which carries us into contemplation which is the highest form of prayer. You enter into Jesus life and treasure it.
Scripture tells us.
“Mary treasured these things and pondered them in her heart. “
This is Mary’s form of prayer, contemplation of Jesus.
You will love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength.
The rosary fully engages your mind, meditating on Jesus life, it fully engages your heart when grace takes you into contemplation, and fully engages your will to faithfully persevere in it consistently daily.
By the Rosary we participate in Mary’s pondering of Jesus in her heart.
The more one is disposed and practiced in meditation the faster they are taken into contemplation. Some people very rapidly enter contemplation.
Contemplation is the state of prayer the souls in Heaven are in for Eternity. They have perfect contemplation.
More happens in one moment of contemplation than the mind can fully grasp.
Mary’s sweet treasuring of Jesus life and contemplation in her heart delighted and enchanted her, but at the passion of Jesus she took into her heart all Jesus suffered in a spiritual way, and a sword of unimaginable sorrow pierced her heart as Simeon prophesied. Her sweet innocent son she treasured all His life, hanging helplessly and gasping in agony and not being able to help him.
In the Rosary as we ponder Jesus life with Mary, a sword pierces our hearts as we are transfixed by grace at Jesus suffering for love of us.
A horror of sin overwhelms us, we are fixated at the exposed core of love at the same moment in adoration. Sorrow, horror and Adoration pierces our hearts.
The Rosary teaches us to treasure Jesus life and contemplate Him in our hearts as Mary did.
This is Mary’s devotion to Jesus.
If praying to Mary is allowable, then John 14:6 can be flushed down the toilet.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
When magisterial claims are exposed as non‑biblical, the pattern is nearly always the same: a retreat into subjective experience, private revelation, and “openness to realities.”
Private experiences, dreams, visions, feelings, or anecdotes, are not the basis of Christian doctrine. Scripture is. The apostles never taught the Assumption of Mary. The early church did not teach it for centuries. It was declared a dogma in 1950 by Pope Pius XII. That is simply historical fact. Your appeal to “realities” or personal openness does not change the category: this is magisterial dogma, not biblical doctrine.
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Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
You have crossed over from“Catholic tradition” into “my personal mystical experience is equal to apostolic revelation.”
You are treating personal experience as equal to biblical revelation. Once that move is made, there are no boundaries left. Anything can be claimed, because anything can be “experienced.” That is precisely why Baptist doctrine begins and ends with Scripture alone.
Paul’s experience did not become doctrine. It was authenticated by Christ Himself, confirmed by the apostles, and incorporated into Scripture. That is the difference. Private experiences today, dreams, visions, feelings, contemplations, are not Scripture, not apostolic, and not binding on the church. They cannot create doctrine.
The Rosary is a Catholic devotional practice built on Catholic dogma. It is not apostolic teaching, not biblical revelation, and not something Scripture ever presents as participating in Mary’s contemplation. Luke 2:19 describes Mary’s personal reflection, not a transferable spiritual mechanism for believers.
Your experiences may be meaningful to you, but they are not the basis of Christian doctrine. Apostolic revelation is.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
@Cathode I’ve asked you twice now: Where? Who avoided what sentence? You still haven’t identified it. Who is avoiding now?
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Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
@Cathode, as @SovereignGrace points out, if prayer may be directed to Mary, then John 14:6 is no longer true in any meaningful sense. Jesus said, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Prayer is an approach to the Father. If prayer may be routed through Mary, then she becomes an additional pathway, which the text explicitly excludes.
This is why the apostles never prayed to Mary, never taught prayer to Mary, and never directed believers to seek intercession from the departed. Your position requires adding a second access point to God that Scripture does not authorize.
This is why the apostles never prayed to Mary, never taught prayer to Mary, and never directed believers to seek intercession from the departed. Your position requires adding a second access point to God that Scripture does not authorize.
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Catholics are pre Bible Christianity, we have apostolic tradition and apostolic government guided by God and this government established the Canon of the Bible.
These together complete the Christian religion.
Magisterial teaching authority is handed down from the Apostles to teach the correct interpretation of scripture and traditions and decide dogma under the guidance of God.
I don’t put my personal experiences on par with any of it, but that doesn’t mean it’s useless or pointless.
In Protestantism the only magisterium is each man’s opinion of scripture, this manifests in every kind of conflicting doctrine.
Scripture was never the sole rule of Christian faith.
So when something is not explicitly stated in scripture or tradition, there is still Christ’s apostolic government to confirm belief.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
@Cathode, you’ve now shifted the argument again. You began by appealing to personal experience, dreams, contemplation, and “grace passing.” Now you’re appealing to magisterial authority and pre‑Bible Christianity. These are two different categories, and neither one answers the original point.
The apostles never taught the Assumption of Mary. The early church never taught it for centuries. It was declared a dogma in 1950. That is not “pre‑Bible Christianity.” That is a modern magisterial decree.
Appealing to apostolic tradition requires showing that the apostles actually taught it. You have not done that. Appealing to apostolic government requires showing that the apostles actually established it. You have not done that.
And appealing to personal experience, dreams, contemplation, emotional states, cannot create doctrine. Paul’s experience became Scripture because Christ Himself authenticated it and the apostles confirmed it. Your experiences do not have that authority.
You are now using magisterial claims to justify what Scripture does not teach, and using personal experience to reinforce what history does not support. Neither replaces apostolic revelation.
Armchair Apologist
Active Member
Islam uses a string of 99 beads in order to recite the "99 Beautiful Names of Allah" and it has been said that this was adopted into what later became the Rosary used by Roman Catholics today.
Mary only leads to Jesus, Mary had unique exclusive access to Jesus before anyone else.
If you want the most intimate connection to Jesus, it is through Mary.
Mary points to Jesus always, that’s why the Rosary is a meditation on Jesus life.
What for you would count as “ proof “ of the magisterial authority of the Catholic Church?
Catholics believe that Apostolic revelation is not all confined to scripture, there is also Apostolic tradition which explains scripture and Apostolic government.
This is what I rely on for my beliefs, but personal experiences confirmed those beliefs.
Covered this.
“Read on.
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,who gave himself as a ransom for all.””
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
@Cathode, the question isn’t what counts as “proof” for me. The question is what counts as apostolic authority. If the Catholic magisterium claims apostolic authority, then it must be able to show apostolic teaching. That is the standard. And on the Assumption of Mary, it cannot.
The apostles never taught it. The early church never taught it for centuries. It was declared a dogma in 1950. A modern decree cannot retroactively become apostolic tradition.
So the issue is not my personal standard of proof. The issue is the apostolic standard of doctrine. If a doctrine cannot be traced to the apostles, then it does not have apostolic authority, regardless of magisterial claims.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
Cathode, quoting the verse again is not answering the question. You claimed we “deliberately avoided the context of the rest of the sentence.” I asked you three times now: Where? Who avoided what sentence? You still have not identified it.
Re‑posting the verse does not show avoidance. It shows that the entire sentence was already quoted and addressed. The second clause (“who gave Himself as a ransom for all”) explains why Christ is the one mediator, it does not create additional mediators, nor does it contradict the first clause. I explained that.
So again: If you are going to claim someone avoided context, you need to show the specific part that was supposedly ignored. You have not done that.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
Cathode, you’ve now added yet another category, “apostolic tradition” and “apostolic government.” But again, neither one answers the original point. If a doctrine is apostolic, you must be able to show where the apostles taught it. On the Assumption of Mary, you cannot.
You say apostolic revelation is “not all confined to Scripture,” but apostolic tradition still requires apostolic teaching. The apostles never taught the Assumption. The early church never taught it for centuries. It was declared a dogma in 1950. A modern decree cannot retroactively become apostolic tradition.
And now you say your personal experiences “confirmed those beliefs.” That is exactly the problem: you are using personal experience to reinforce a magisterial claim that has no apostolic foundation. Personal experience cannot authenticate doctrine. Apostolic revelation does.
So again, the issue is simple: Where did the apostles teach the Assumption of Mary? If you cannot show apostolic teaching, then neither magisterial authority nor personal experience can supply it.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
At this point it’s clear to everyone reading that Cathode is reaching for something he cannot produce: apostolic support for Catholic dogma. The repeated category‑shifts, from personal experience, to mystical contemplation, to magisterial authority, to “pre‑Bible Christianity”, have not supplied what is missing. The linguistic gymnastics are impressive, but they do not answer the simple question: Where did the apostles teach the Assumption of Mary? They never did.
Since that question remains unanswered after multiple attempts, there’s nothing further to gain here. I’ll step back and let the thread move on.
Since that question remains unanswered after multiple attempts, there’s nothing further to gain here. I’ll step back and let the thread move on.
And yet not one apostle ever appealed to Mary in prayer neither did they advocate anyone else to do so.
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