Mary’s devotion to Jesus

[Anthony Pritchard]

My position on every issue is simple and always transparent: Scripture, the Bible, the text, rightly divided. And anyone following this exchange can see that Cathode is reaching for something unattainable: apostolic support for a Catholic dogma that the apostles never taught. The repeated shifts in category and the linguistic gymnastics have not produced what is missing. They have only highlighted the absence of apostolic foundation.

 

[Oseas3]

My position on every issue is simple and always transparent: Scripture, the Bible, the text, rightly divided. And anyone following this exchange can see that Cathode is reaching for something unattainable: apostolic support for a Catholic dogma that the apostles never taught. The repeated shifts in category and the linguistic gymnastics have not produced what is missing. They have only highlighted the absence of apostolic foundation.

Perfect. The problem is; How can he be saved of the condemnation if he does not believe in the Truth, as you have clearly demonstrated in your messages, and according the Word of GOD?

Their human and domonic dogmas (tares) can not replace the true Word of GOD, 1Corinthians 10:19-21 combined with Revelation 21:8.

 

[Oseas3]

Our Lord left very clear, saying:
When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine ( John 17: all mine are thine, and thine are mine ); and I am glorified in them.: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Our Lord also said:-> And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the Truth.Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through THEIR word, that they all may be one; as thou,Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be One in us: that the WORLD may believe that thou hast sent me.And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be One, even as we are one:I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in One; and that the WORLD may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given(this is the promise of our Lord),and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 11:15-18 combined with 1Corinthians 15:24-28 and 51-55 and Philippians 3:20-2);
-> 15- The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 1030 GMT 0430 AM EDT / 130 AM PST

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Our Lord left very clear, saying:
When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine ( John 17: all mine are thine, and thine are mine ); and I am glorified in them.: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Our Lord also said:-> And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the Truth.Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through THEIR word, that they all may be one; as thou,Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be One in us: that the WORLD may believe that thou hast sent me.And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be One, even as we are one:I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in One; and that the WORLD may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given(this is the promise of our Lord),and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 11:15-18 combined with 1Corinthians 15:24-28 and 51-55 and Philippians 3:20-2);
-> 15- The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Oseas, I appreciate the passages you’ve quoted, but none of them address the specific point under discussion. The issue here is apostolic foundation: Psalm 118, Matthew 21, Acts 4, and Luke 6 establish Christ as the cornerstone and the apostles as the foundation stones of the assembly He promised to build. The question is whether Catholic dogma has apostolic support. That is the subject I am addressing.

 

[Oseas3]

My position on every issue is simple and always transparent: Scripture, the Bible, the text, rightly divided. And anyone following this exchange can see that Cathode is reaching for something unattainable: apostolic support for a Catholic dogma that the apostles never taught. The repeated shifts in category and the linguistic gymnastics have not produced what is missing. They have only highlighted the absence of apostolic foundation.

Perfect.

https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/go-out-in-jesus-name.128342/

• Aug 31, 2023 - post #6
  
  The sign of the cross showed by the picture above is a gesture for false Christians guided by the Roman Catholic Church that rides upon the Beast of Rome, that consists of tracing a cross with the RIGHT HAND, touching the forehead,
  chest, left shoulder and right shoulder, in LITERAL fulfillment of Revelation 13:16-18: that was written in the first century.
  
  16 And the Beast causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their RIGHT hand, or in their foreheads:
  
  17 And (very soon, after the election of the next and last Pope) no man may buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the NAME of the Beast, or the NUMBER of his NAME.
  
  18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding COUNT the NUMBER of the Beast: for IT IS the number OF A MAN; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. ->666<-
  
  Get ready
  
  Revelation 21:8
  8 But the idolaters, and abominable, and fearful(cowards), and unbelieving, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone(the hell's fire): which is the second death.

 

[Oseas3]

Oseas, I appreciate the passages you’ve quoted, but none of them address the specific point under discussion. The issue here is apostolic foundation: Psalm 118, Matthew 21, Acts 4, and Luke 6 establish Christ as the cornerstone and the apostles as the foundation stones of the assembly He promised to build. The question is whether Catholic dogma has apostolic support. That is the subject I am addressing.

Thank you for your reply.

Daniel 7: 22 and 26-27 combined with 1 Corinthians 6:2-3.

 

[Mike B]

Cathode, the members here have shown you, clearly, that there is great error in your Catholic
theology, and Biblical truth has been presented to you.

There is still time to change your mind, and I would encourage you to prayerfully seek the
wisdom of God, so that you may not pass into eternity while believing false teachings. God
gives us free will, so the choice is yours.

I will be praying for you.

 

[Cathode]

Cathode, you’ve now added yet another category, “apostolic tradition” and “apostolic government.” But again, neither one answers the original point. If a doctrine is apostolic, you must be able to show where the apostles taught it. On the Assumption of Mary, you cannot.

You say apostolic revelation is “not all confined to Scripture,” but apostolic tradition still requires apostolic teaching. The apostles never taught the Assumption. The early church never taught it for centuries. It was declared a dogma in 1950. A modern decree cannot retroactively become apostolic tradition.

And now you say your personal experiences “confirmed those beliefs.” That is exactly the problem: you are using personal experience to reinforce a magisterial claim that has no apostolic foundation. Personal experience cannot authenticate doctrine. Apostolic revelation does.

So again, the issue is simple: Where did the apostles teach the Assumption of Mary? If you cannot show apostolic teaching, then neither magisterial authority nor personal experience can supply it.

Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium is the three leg stool of the Catholic Church. All are Apostolic.

The Magisterium is the Apostolic government with Authority to declare dogma, teach doctrine.

Protestantism is scripture plus human opinion, which is not a firm basis for any doctrine.

So the pastor shown earlier asks God in prayer whether the Assumption is true, gets an independent confirmation the next day through his daughter who sees Mary going up to heaven in a dream.

If he had the dream, it could be all put down to his study of Marian doctrines occupying his mind.
Instead it is given to his 6 year old daughter, unschooled in Marian doctrines.

All this is in answer to his own prayer to God. Props to the guy for being open enough to ask God for enlightenment.

If the Assumption is confirmed true for him as an answer to prayer and he can’t find it explicitly in scripture or early tradition, how then is it still none the less true.

Scripture is not the sole rule of the Christian faith, we see the only Church authority that holds and declares the truth of the Assumption of Mary as dogma is the Apostolic Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

This is God’s way of showing a Protestant pastor the truth.
He may ignore it, ignore God’s answer to his own prayer.
In that case, it may be a lesson for others.

 

[Cathode]

At this point it’s clear to everyone reading that Cathode is reaching for something he cannot produce: apostolic support for Catholic dogma. The repeated category‑shifts, from personal experience, to mystical contemplation, to magisterial authority, to “pre‑Bible Christianity”, have not supplied what is missing. The linguistic gymnastics are impressive, but they do not answer the simple question: Where did the apostles teach the Assumption of Mary? They never did.

Since that question remains unanswered after multiple attempts, there’s nothing further to gain here. I’ll step back and let the thread move on.

The Apostolic Government teaches it, the Magisterium, the ones who canonised the Bible itself with the guidance of The Holy Spirit.

It shows Protestants will even ignore God’s answer to their own prayer in favour of their own interpretations of scripture.

Once an idol is made of their own interpretation of scripture, not even God showing them can help, they ignore it. So God Himself can show a Protestant pastor that the Assumption is true, but that is not enough for him.

Scripture still implies Mary’s Assumption by Her presence in Heaven in Revelation.

 

[Oseas3]

Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium is the three leg stool of the Catholic Church. All are Apostolic.

The Magisterium is the Apostolic government with Authority to declare dogma, teach doctrine.

Protestantism is scripture plus human opinion, which is not a firm basis for any doctrine.

So the pastor shown earlier asks God in prayer whether the Assumption is true, gets an independent confirmation the next day through his daughter who sees Mary going up to heaven in a dream.

If he had the dream, it could be all put down to his study of Marian doctrines occupying his mind.
Instead it is given to his 6 year old daughter, unschooled in Marian doctrines.

All this is in answer to his own prayer to God. Props to the guy for being open enough to ask God for enlightenment.

If the Assumption is confirmed true for him as an answer to prayer and he can’t find it explicitly in scripture or early tradition, how then is it still none the less true.

Scripture is not the sole rule of the Christian faith, we see the only Church authority that holds and declares the truth of the Assumption of Mary as dogma is the Apostolic Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

This is God’s way of showing a Protestant pastor the truth.
He may ignore it, ignore God’s answer to his own prayer.
In that case, it may be a lesson for others.

1Corinthians 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of GOD which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:

Isaiah 33:10-14
10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.

11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.

12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

13 Hear, ye that are far off->(the Gentiles), what I have done; and, ye that are near->(the Jews), acknowledge my might.

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Mathew 25:41 and 46
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Oseas3]

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS?

Revelation 16:v.13 to 16
1 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast, and out of the mouth of the False Prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Ar - mag - eddon.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


Well, all Christian/believer know that the battle of AR(heaven)-Mag(Magog)-Eddon(means red) is against three UNCLEAN SPIRITS like frogs. Why frogs? I searched deeply an explanation for this biblical mystery, and by the Word of GOD what I found is the follow:

In general, frogs are amphibians vertebrate animals that live in the aquatic environment and on the terrestrial environment. But is it the same in the spiritual environment? Yes, it is.

1 - THE AQUATIC ENVIRONMENT OF THE EVIL SPIRITS LIKE FROGS
Revelation 17:v.15 - And the angel saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. NOTE: Except the TRUE CHRISTIANS/BELIEVERS, all the peoples of all the nations are leaded, and dominated, and guided by the THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS like frogs. TERRIBLE. TERRIBLE.

That said, we can see by the above verse 15 the aquatic environment of these three spirits of demons like frogs which guide the peoples or rule nations of all tongues in whole earth, through all kind of devilish systems, as religious systems as Catholicism, and Judaism, and spiritism, budhism, islamism, among others), and also political systems, and military systems, and social and cultural systems, among others systems. In fact, Satan goes to and fro and from walking up and down among them.

2 - THE TERRESTRIAL ENVIRONMENT OF THE EVIL SPIRITS LIKE FROGS
FIRST we need to understand that Israel is an island among the waters (Gentile nations) or in the middle of the sea, as is described above in according the Scriptures. Israel is the earth, a dry land, Genesis 1:v.10-3rd Day- or still the clay-Isaiah 64:v.8- a dry land surrounded by water on all sides or by allegory surrounded by the Gentile nations. Remember, even Isaiah prophesized saying:
Isaiah 41:v.1-2 -
1 - Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near together to Judgment.
2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his Sword-Revelation 2:v.26 to 28-, and as driven stubble to his bow. (bow-Revelation 6:v.2)

That said, there is no doubt Israel is the earth, the dry land -Genesis 1:v.10-3rd Day - , with its great city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, yeah, Israel, the earth, the dry land, was and is also dominated by the three unclean spirits like frogs, which infested the nation of idolatries, and wichcraft,spiritism/esoterism , idolaters and spiritist peoples or esoteric and kabbalistic and spiritist peoples that follow the esoteric and kabbalistic and spiritist Judaism, and they are waiting their messiah who must manifest himself soon (he was born decades ago and must manifest himself soon-2 Thes.2:v.6), and he will be one of the heads of the MONSTRUOUS and SATANIC Antichrist's Empire together the Beast of sea-Daniel 2:v.40 to 43 and Revelation 13:v.1 to 10-the Beast of sea- and Revelation 13:v.11 to 18-the Beast of the earth.

These are the spiritual ENVIRONMENT that the GOD's people will see in the last week 70th Daniel 9:v.27 that may be within these current dec ade of 2020-2030.

Be careful and get ready

Similarity between passing by the Red Sea and by the Red Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - PUT THIS IN YOUR MIND ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - THE RED SEA AND THE RED DRAGON ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe you know that the Hebrews had to cross the Red Sea, and walk through a desert, walk until they got to the Promised Land after 40 years of...

purebibleforum.com

 

[Ascetic X]

Protestantism is scripture plus human opinion, which is not a firm basis for any doctrine.

So the pastor shown earlier asks God in prayer whether the Assumption is true, gets an independent confirmation the next day through his daughter who sees Mary going up to heaven in a dream.

If he had the dream, it could be all put down to his study of Marian doctrines occupying his mind.
Instead it is given to his 6 year old daughter, unschooled in Marian doctrines.

All this is in answer to his own prayer to God. Props to the guy for being open enough to ask God for enlightenment.

If the Assumption is confirmed true for him as an answer to prayer and he can’t find it explicitly in scripture or early tradition, how then is it still none the less true.

So now we’re getting our doctrines from the dreams of 6 year old girls!

Even when those doctrines are not found in scripture.

You say she was not schooled in Marian doctrines, but all she needed to hear was mention of Mary rising up to heaven.

 

[Oseas3]

Isaiah 30:32-33
32 And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the Lord shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it.

33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the KING it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

 

[Oseas3]

Scripture still implies Mary’s Assumption by Her presence in Heaven in Revelation.

The mother of JESUS has nothing to do with Revelation, what you say is more a demonic interpretation of the Word of GOD you do according your spirit. Revelation 12:1-2 and 5 is about the rebel son of God->Isaiah 7:14-16 combined with Luke 15:12-14 and 17-32 and the woman is not Mary neither Israel. -> Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin shall conceive - Isaiah 9:6 - everlasting Father

Thou believest that there is one God;...well: the devils also believe-James 2:19. And the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and DOCTRINES OF DEMONS; Speaking lies in HYPOCRISY having their conscience seared with a hot iron;-> Said the Apostle of the Roma's Church, Paul Apostle, to the Timothy, later the APOSTATE Roman Catholic Church.
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2Corinthians 11:12-15:
12 What I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers(MINISTERS OF SATAN) also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[Oseas3]

1 Corinthians 5:13-15
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth->(John 12:47-49 combined woith 1Corinthians 6:2-3, take a look). Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[David Lamb]

Catholics are pre Bible Christianity, we have apostolic tradition and apostolic government guided by God and this government established the Canon of the Bible.

These together complete the Christian religion.

Magisterial teaching authority is handed down from the Apostles to teach the correct interpretation of scripture and traditions and decide dogma under the guidance of God.

I don’t put my personal experiences on par with any of it, but that doesn’t mean it’s useless or pointless.

In Protestantism the only magisterium is each man’s opinion of scripture, this manifests in every kind of conflicting doctrine.
Scripture was never the sole rule of Christian faith.

So when something is not explicitly stated in scripture or tradition, there is still Christ’s apostolic government to confirm belief.

How can any church be pre-Bible? Even the earliest Christians had the Bible, albeit only the Old Testament, yet they used it. Jesus Himself taught the disciples on the road to Emmaus about Himself from the Old Testament:

NKJV Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

And we have this passage from 1 Corinthians:

NKJV 1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

 

[David Lamb]

Scripture still implies Mary’s Assumption by Her presence in Heaven in Revelation.

Even if Revelation did actually refer to Mary, the fact that she is in heaven is no proof that she went there by assumption, i.e. without dying. Her death or her leaving this earth, is not even mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Cathode]

So now we’re getting our doctrines from the dreams of 6 year old girls!

Even when those doctrines are not found in scripture.

You say she was not schooled in Marian doctrines, but all she needed to hear was mention of Mary rising up to heaven.

You didn’t watch the video obviously. The pastor didn’t tell her about the Assumption. He made that clear.
He is a Protestant, asked God to reveal to him if the Assumption is true in prayer.

Then his daughter has the dream and tells him the dream the next day.

That’s why it was so shocking to him.

Understanding Scripture in totality regarding Mary’s role, you can understand the Assumption of Mary.

Even if Revelation did actually refer to Mary, the fact that she is in heaven is no proof that she went there by assumption, i.e. without dying. Her death or her leaving this earth, is not even mentioned in the Bible.

Assumption doesn’t necessarily mean Mary didn’t die, I think the Church hasn’t defined that.
You might be making assumptions yourself.
The main point is that Mary is alive body and soul in Heaven.

 

[David Lamb]

Assumption doesn’t necessarily mean Mary didn’t die, I think the Church hasn’t defined that.
You might be making assumptions yourself.
The main point is that Mary is alive body and soul in Heaven.

Whether the Roman Catholic teaching is that Mary didn't die, but is now in heaven both body and soul, or that she did die and her body and soul are now in heaven, the point remains that there is no mention in the Bible of h0er being bodily in heaven.