Mary and the recent Papal teaching

[canadyjd]

We are all co redeemers in one sense, but this is qualified. We are all saviours but this is also qualified.

We are subordinate to Christ's unique work, because it is only through Jesus unique work that any are saved.

Christ operates, we co operate with Him, we can do nothing of ourselves.

You are avoiding the question. One Pope (John Paul) very clearly believed and stated Mary was co redeemer equal to Jesus. Another has just stated that isn’t true.

Both are “Pope” who, according to RCC dogma, are infallible when making such a pronouncement.

So, the RCC dogma of infallibility has been demonstrated to be untrue because one of your Popes is wrong.

Don’t deflect. Which one is wrong?

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Walter is correct about Revelation saying the prayers of the saints are presented to God by others in heaven. It doesn’t say folks on earth are praying to the saints, but rather the saints are presenting the prayers offered.

Perhaps, in context, it goes with asking how long will He allow the persecution to continue. Apparently, the saints in heaven are aware of the persecution, can hear the prayers of Christians experiencing persecution, and are asking God how long will He wait to answer those prayers.

Now, the entire system developed by the RCC of praying to the saints is not supported by this passage of scripture, imo.

However, we cannot say the RCC has no scripture to support their belief, they clearly do. I don’t agree, but understand why they believe we can pray to the saints and they will take our prayers to God.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Not according to the Bible. Saints hear us and intercede for us. Going back to the Book of Revelation, this is a passage I touched on already, we have the four living creatures, the 24 elders who fall down before the Lord and they’re offering the golden bulls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And that’s critical because here are these, especially the elders, seemingly human in heaven who are not only praying for us but are also offering up our prayers they’re interceding for us with our prayers.

 

[Walter]

You are avoiding the question. One Pope (John Paul) very clearly believed and stated Mary was co redeemer equal to Jesus. Another has just stated that isn’t true.

Both are “Pope” who, according to RCC dogma, are infallible when making such a pronouncement.

So, the RCC dogma of infallibility has been demonstrated to be untrue because one of your Popes is wrong.

Don’t deflect. Which one is wrong?

Peace to you

No infallible dogma has been pronounced by any pope regarding Mary as co-redeemer. Do you think that any opinion or statement made by any pope is believed by Catholics to be infallible? You don't understand what constitutes papal infallibility in Catholic teaching.

 

[JesusFan]

Not according to the Bible. Saints hear us and intercede for us. Going back to the Book of Revelation, this is a passage I touched on already, we have the four living creatures, the 24 elders who fall down before the Lord and they’re offering the golden bulls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And that’s critical because here are these, especially the elders, seemingly human in heaven who are not only praying for us but are also offering up our prayers they’re interceding for us with our prayers.

Only Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit interceed before the Father on our behalf

 

[Walter]

Only Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit interceed before the Father on our behalf

Distinction between mediation and intercession: Mediation refers to bridging the gap between two parties, which is Christ's unique role in bringing about salvation. Intercession is the act of praying for another, which is something all Christians are called to do. Catholics believe that the saints are alive in Christ and according to the book of Revelation, are interceding.

 

[Cathode]

You still see Mary as an Interceder though, as the "queen of heaven?"

Yes, Mary's intercession is biblical however.

At the wedding feast of Cana we see Mary intercede with Jesus on behalf of the wedding party.

When Mary asked Jesus to deal with the situation of the lack of wine, it was not in God's timing that Jesus should reveal Himself.

Think on this a minute. Mary's intercession altered the coarse of God's timing. Jesus public life was not meant to start then.

“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me."

Does this mean that Mary is more powerful than God? God The Father would have to give consent to this change of timing for Jesus to do this.

This is where we need to see clearly this as a Family dynamic between Father Mother and Son.

What protestants have completely missed is the Family relationship happening with Mary.

God allowed His timing to be altered by Mary's intercession as Mother. And all for a nameless couple Mary wanted to be happy on their wedding day.

"What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him." John 2:11

Protestantism in general sees Mary as a superfluous figure, this could not be more wrong, the Mother is an important figure in any Family, but especially in The Holy Family.
The Mother in a family is to be greatly honoured.

I remember a huge tattooed body builder looking bloke yelling loudly at the mall " If my daughter wants ice cream, she is going to get ice cream ". The daughter was in a wheel chair, weak and helpless, but the power, consequences, and repercussions she could summon by one word was enormous. Even if it was only for ice cream.

If you want the right understanding of Mary and Her place, understand her as Daughter of The Father, Mother of The Son and Spouse of The Holy Spirit. Family.

" The Almighty has done great things for me, Holy is His Name "

The Almighty continues to do great things for her as she intercedes for us.

See the close family intimacy God wants with mankind, it is best seen in Mary.

 

[canadyjd]

No infallible dogma has been pronounced by any pope regarding Mary as co-redeemer. Do you think that any opinion or statement made by any pope is believed by Catholics to be infallible? You don't understand what constitutes papal infallibility in Catholic teaching.

Ok explain it to me. Tell me what Pope John Paul stated and explain why it doesn’t meet the infallibility standard. Then explain why the current Pope doesn’t meet the infallibility standard.

I am prepared to be educated.

Peace to you

 

[Cathode]

Ok explain it to me. Tell me what Pope John Paul stated and explain why it doesn’t meet the infallibility standard. Then explain why the current Pope doesn’t meet the infallibility standard.

I am prepared to be educated.

Peace to you

It would have been written in the Catholic Catechism if John Paul 2 was speaking Ex Cathedra, that's how we know.

If you can find it, let me know.

 

[Walter]

It would have been written in the Catholic Catechism if John Paul 2 was speaking Ex Cathedra, that's how we know.

If you can find it, let me know.

They really don't understand what 'Ex-Cathedra' means. Jimmy Akins excerpt helps:

We must look also at the conditions regarding papal infallibility. According to Vatican I, which defined the doctrine, “the Roman pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra . . . possesses through the divine assistance promised to him in the person of blessed Peter, the infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to be endowed in defining the doctrine concerning faith or morals” (Pastor Aeternus 4). The passage in the ellipsis explains that the pope speaks ex cathedra “when, acting in the office of shepherd and teacher of all Christians, he defines, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the universal Church.”

The key word is “defines.” Defining something is not the same as stating, teaching, declaring, condemning, or what have you. The meaning of this term is explained in a relatio on Pastor Aeternus 4. (A relatio is an official interpretation of the text that is presented to the council bishops by a man called the relator so that the bishops will know the official sense of the text on which they are voting. Thus, what is said in a relatio is key to resolving queries about the meaning of a conciliar text.)

 

[Cathode]

They really don't understand what 'Ex-Cathedra' means. Jimmy Akins excerpt helps:

We must look also at the conditions regarding papal infallibility. According to Vatican I, which defined the doctrine, “the Roman pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra . . . possesses through the divine assistance promised to him in the person of blessed Peter, the infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to be endowed in defining the doctrine concerning faith or morals” (Pastor Aeternus 4). The passage in the ellipsis explains that the pope speaks ex cathedra “when, acting in the office of shepherd and teacher of all Christians, he defines, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the universal Church.”

The key word is “defines.” Defining something is not the same as stating, teaching, declaring, condemning, or what have you. The meaning of this term is explained in a relatio on Pastor Aeternus 4. (A relatio is an official interpretation of the text that is presented to the council bishops by a man called the relator so that the bishops will know the official sense of the text on which they are voting. Thus, what is said in a relatio is key to resolving queries about the meaning of a conciliar text.)

I get tired of re explaining it. It's been decades since I first started explaining it.

It's like the same guy you meet in every town you ride into.

 

[Walter]

I get tired of re explaining it. It's been decades since I first started explaining it.

It's like the same guy you meet in every town you ride into.

I have explained it for years here and there are still people who post claiming 'infallibility' means Catholics believe that the pope is not capable of sinning. To me this is the most bizarre misinformation about infallibility. If you mention John Paul going to regular confession all you hear is crickets.

There is much to be learned from each other in this particular forum. It does get frustrating when an obvious misunderstanding about the Faith is explained and ignored.

A friend of mine, a Maronite Catholic priest, is married and has children. I mentioned this in this forum and was told by one of the moderator's that I was confused. That Catholic priests 'were forbidden to marry' and that my friend could not possibly be 'a real Catholic priest'. Despite all the evidence I presented regarding the many eastern Rites of the Catholic Church in which many priests marry and have families I was told 'everyone knows Catholic priests cannot marry'. Sigh

 

[Charlie24]

I was surprised that many in protestantism were so surprised at the document

Ejection of specific titles: The document explicitly rejects titles like "co-redemptrix" and "co-mediatrix" because they risk "eclipsing the exclusive role of Jesus Christ" as the sole Savior.
Emphasis on Jesus as the sole redeemer: It reaffirms the central Christian teaching that salvation was achieved solely through the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ.
Clarification of Mary's role: Mary's role is clarified as that of a spiritual mother who guides believers to Jesus. The document supports using titles like "Mother of the Faithful People" to reflect this role.
Purification of Marian devotion: The document is a pastoral effort to correct misunderstandings and extreme devotional practices, particularly those spread on social media.
Purpose: The goal is not to diminish Marian devotion but to "purify it" and ensure it always leads back to Christ, reinforcing that Mary is the first disciple who shows how to say "yes" to God.

The end result of devotion to Mary is to lead to Christ.

This is a pastoral clarification more than anything. And I think it is more for simplicity. Many aren't sophisticated enough to be nuanced, so it is made very simple. Which is good.

I also notice many things are being simplified to bring eastern and western Churches together, as with the recent gathering at Nicea after 1700 years. It seems that anything that may present an obstacle to unity is being simplified.

The Church under Pope Leo is unifying, and I think clarifications like this help the Church unify.

I don't know what's going on in the RCC at any given time.

When something like this happens I like to get your input as to what's happening.

Looks like there's no shock waves taking place though.

 

[JesusFan]

Ok explain it to me. Tell me what Pope John Paul stated and explain why it doesn’t meet the infallibility standard. Then explain why the current Pope doesn’t meet the infallibility standard.

I am prepared to be educated.

Peace to you

John Paul II stated publicly that Mother Mary was the one who had spared his life, and he wanted to double down on catholic devotion to her

 

[JesusFan]

They really don't understand what 'Ex-Cathedra' means. Jimmy Akins excerpt helps:

We must look also at the conditions regarding papal infallibility. According to Vatican I, which defined the doctrine, “the Roman pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra . . . possesses through the divine assistance promised to him in the person of blessed Peter, the infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to be endowed in defining the doctrine concerning faith or morals” (Pastor Aeternus 4). The passage in the ellipsis explains that the pope speaks ex cathedra “when, acting in the office of shepherd and teacher of all Christians, he defines, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the universal Church.”

The key word is “defines.” Defining something is not the same as stating, teaching, declaring, condemning, or what have you. The meaning of this term is explained in a relatio on Pastor Aeternus 4. (A relatio is an official interpretation of the text that is presented to the council bishops by a man called the relator so that the bishops will know the official sense of the text on which they are voting. Thus, what is said in a relatio is key to resolving queries about the meaning of a conciliar text.)

All of the papal decrees regarding Mary being sinless, immaculate, perpetual virgin etc were all not biblical

 

[Cathode]

I don't know what's going on in the RCC at any given time.

When something like this happens I like to get your input as to what's happening.

Looks like there's no shock waves taking place though.

I think those taught falsely about Catholicism are suffering shockwaves of cognitive dissonance.

They have lived so long with false assumptions of what Catholics believe.