Mary and the recent Papal teaching

[MrW]

Interestingly, Genesis 3:15 is the first prophecy of the “Seed of the woman”, referring to the Lord Jesus. The Lord never refers to Mary as “Mother”, but always as “Woman”. And that is not disrespectful at all.

As an aside, I understand “Christ” to refer to His being God, and “Jesus” referencing His being a genuine man.

 

[MrW]

Hi Charlie:

No, being blessed and 'highly favored' or 'full of grace' is very significant, however. Let's take a closer look at this.
And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Please consider what another Catholic being asked a very similar question and how He answered.

'Mother of the Lord means Mother of God, right? Isn’t Jesus our Lord and God?

Now you might say “The Greek word kurios or ‘lord’ can indeed be used to denote divinity but not necessarily so. It can be used to denote an earthly potentate or even false ‘lords’ or gods” (see Matt. 20:8; 21:40; I Cor. 8:5-6, etc.). And this is true.

The key to our discussion then is to ascertain how kurios is being used of Christ in Luke 1:43. Was it being used to describe Jesus with regard to his humanity alone, or with regard to his divinity?

Old Testament Type​

First, when Elizabeth “exclaimed with a loud cry… why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me” (Luke 1:42-43), Mary was revealed to be the New Testament Ark of the Lord. Elizabeth’s words make this clear as they hearken back to a text from II Samuel 6:9 wherein David exclaims concerning the Old Covenant “ark of the Lord:”

And David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, “How can the ark of the LORD come to me?”

If this one parallel leaves you unconvinced, there are more that may tip the scale for you. St. John the Baptist “leaped for joy” at the salutation of Mary (Luke 1:44), just as King David “danced before the Lord” in the ark of the Lord in II Samuel 6:14. Moreover, Mary “remained with [Elizabeth] for three months (Luke 1:56),” just as “the ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obededom the Gittite for three months” in II Sam. 6:11'

Good enough for me.

And, no Catholics don't in any way believe that Mary created God.
Mary did not exist before the Second Person of the Trinity, who has always existed in the eternal now outside of time, but she did become his mother by contributing genetic matter to him (Rom. 1:3) and by carrying him in her womb (Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35).

Mary was Jesus’ mother in the true sense. As the Second Person of the Trinity, Jesus is God, and so Mary is the mother of God. Mary did not merely give birth to Jesus’ human nature. Mothers do not give birth to natures. They give birth to persons, and Jesus was a divine person. Again, to deny that Mary gave birth to the Second Person of the Trinity would be to commit the heresy Nestorianism.

Not His nature; His human body.

 

[Charlie24]

Hi Charlie:

No, being blessed and 'highly favored' or 'full of grace' is very significant, however. Let's take a closer look at this.
And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Please consider what another Catholic being asked a very similar question and how He answered.

'Mother of the Lord means Mother of God, right? Isn’t Jesus our Lord and God?

Now you might say “The Greek word kurios or ‘lord’ can indeed be used to denote divinity but not necessarily so. It can be used to denote an earthly potentate or even false ‘lords’ or gods” (see Matt. 20:8; 21:40; I Cor. 8:5-6, etc.). And this is true.

The key to our discussion then is to ascertain how kurios is being used of Christ in Luke 1:43. Was it being used to describe Jesus with regard to his humanity alone, or with regard to his divinity?

Old Testament Type​

First, when Elizabeth “exclaimed with a loud cry… why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me” (Luke 1:42-43), Mary was revealed to be the New Testament Ark of the Lord. Elizabeth’s words make this clear as they hearken back to a text from II Samuel 6:9 wherein David exclaims concerning the Old Covenant “ark of the Lord:”

And David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, “How can the ark of the LORD come to me?”

If this one parallel leaves you unconvinced, there are more that may tip the scale for you. St. John the Baptist “leaped for joy” at the salutation of Mary (Luke 1:44), just as King David “danced before the Lord” in the ark of the Lord in II Samuel 6:14. Moreover, Mary “remained with [Elizabeth] for three months (Luke 1:56),” just as “the ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obededom the Gittite for three months” in II Sam. 6:11'

Good enough for me.

And, no Catholics don't in any way believe that Mary created God.
Mary did not exist before the Second Person of the Trinity, who has always existed in the eternal now outside of time, but she did become his mother by contributing genetic matter to him (Rom. 1:3) and by carrying him in her womb (Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35).

Mary was Jesus’ mother in the true sense. As the Second Person of the Trinity, Jesus is God, and so Mary is the mother of God. Mary did not merely give birth to Jesus’ human nature. Mothers do not give birth to natures. They give birth to persons, and Jesus was a divine person. Again, to deny that Mary gave birth to the Second Person of the Trinity would be to commit the heresy Nestorianism.

I think it is very misleading and inappropriate to say Mary is the Mother of God.

There is nothing that sounds right about that. Any thoughts taken from that statement could only lead to heresy.

 

[Walter]

I think it is very misleading and inappropriate to say Mary is the Mother of God.

There is nothing that sounds right about that. Any thoughts taken from that statement could only lead to heresy.

Well, the title Theotokos' only became necessary to combat the heresy of Nestorianism.

I respect your opinion, however, and know how many Baptists object to the title 'Mother of God'.

 

[Walter]

Not His nature; His human body.

Does this clarify what Catholics, Lutherans, Orthodox and many Anglicans believe?

• One Divine Person: Jesus is one divine person, not two separate persons (God and man).
• Person, Not Nature: Mary is the mother of the divine person, Jesus, not the source of His eternal divine nature.
• Theotokos: The Greek term Theotokos (God-bearer) signifies she gave birth to God incarnate.
• Biblical Basis: Elizabeth calls Mary "mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43), implying she is the mother of God.

 

[Cathode]

Come on, Cathode!

How in the world do you expect us to believe such history in the Church as Mary being taken to heaven body and soul at her death?

Who said that the Christianity is exclusively constructed from the Bible, protestants construct their beliefs from their human opinions of the bible, but the Church Jesus founded was on the Apostles and their preaching tradition, the bible didn't exist for 400 years.

This falls in line with Apostolic Succession, not of word of it in Scripture. I could bring up several other things.

Scripturally we see Mary in Heaven in Revelation. Remember that you have no authority to interpret anything different from scripture than the Apostolic Church, you are not authorised.

The protestant human traditions, have just taken it for granted, that scripture means what each man asserts it means. They never consider the possibility they could interpret their damnation from it.

The history of the Church can be whatever those men said it is and we would know no difference.

This makes no sense at all Charles. Just sounds like your mental preparation to ignore any history presented to you, because this is not your history.
The history of the church is whatever you decide in your head without evidence.

We can't accept that, Cathode. The Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and those men with their history?

The Scripture is inspired, but you aren't, you are unauthorised to interpret it.

 

[Cathode]

I think it is very misleading and inappropriate to say Mary is the Mother of God.

There is nothing that sounds right about that. Any thoughts taken from that statement could only lead to heresy.

Let me help you.

Mary is the Mother of God Incarnate.

She is the Mother of a Divine Person.

In peoples feverish detractions of Mary they find themselves detracting from Jesus Himself.

 

[Ascetic X]

Who said that the Christianity is exclusively constructed from the Bible, protestants construct their beliefs from their human opinions of the bible, but the Church Jesus founded was on the Apostles and their preaching tradition, the bible didn't exist for 400 years.

Bible didn’t exist for 400 years?

The Old Testament (Septuagint) was the Bible used by Jesus and his disciples, then more was added as the 4 gospels were written, plus letters by Paul, John, James, Peter. So scriptures were being used and circulated, by word of mouth and scrolls, from the very beginning of the Christian era.

You mean the final New Testament canon was largely recognized by the late 4th century, formally affirmed at the Council of Hippo in 393 AD and confirmed at the Council of Carthage in 397 AD, establishing the same 27 books we have today, though the process of acceptance by all Christians took time.

When dubious traditions that contradicted scripture accumulated, the Protestants removed them, seeking a purer form of Christianity than the institution that was corrupted by Constantine, and as pagan pretended to convert and invaded the ranks, dragging their beliefs in and creating a weird hybrid.

 

[Cathode]

Bible didn’t exist for 400 years?

The Old Testament (Septuagint) was the Bible used by Jesus and his disciples, then more was added as the 4 gospels were written, plus letters by Paul, John, James, Peter. So scriptures were being used and circulated, by word of mouth and scrolls, from the very beginning of the Christian era.

You mean the final New Testament canon was largely recognized by the late 4th century, formally affirmed at the Council of Hippo in 393 AD and confirmed at the Council of Carthage in 397 AD, establishing the same 27 books we have today, though the process of acceptance by all Christians took time.

It was the Catholic Church that determined the Old and New Testament Canon both, the Jews never settled their canon.

And in fact Christianity was never going to accept a canon from those who rejected Christ and persecuted Christianity.

When dubious traditions that contradicted scripture accumulated, the Protestants removed them, seeking a purer form of Christianity than the institution that was corrupted by Constantine, and as pagan pretended to convert and invaded the ranks, dragging their beliefs in and creating a weird hybrid.

I know this is what you have been told, but I encourage you read the history itself. There was no syncretism "creating a weird hybrid ", these two communities were antithetical to one another.

 

[Charlie24]

Who said that the Christianity is exclusively constructed from the Bible, protestants construct their beliefs from their human opinions of the bible, but the Church Jesus founded was on the Apostles and their preaching tradition, the bible didn't exist for 400 years.



Scripturally we see Mary in Heaven in Revelation. Remember that you have no authority to interpret anything different from scripture than the Apostolic Church, you are not authorised.

The protestant human traditions, have just taken it for granted, that scripture means what each man asserts it means. They never consider the possibility they could interpret their damnation from it.



This makes no sense at all Charles. Just sounds like your mental preparation to ignore any history presented to you, because this is not your history.
The history of the church is whatever you decide in your head without evidence.




The Scripture is inspired, but you aren't, you are unauthorised to interpret it.

There is no denomination on earth any closer to the truth of Scripture that the Baptists.

The Scripture says to "study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the words of truth."

We have our differences on what the truth actually is, but we all stay within the bounds of the Words of God to find that truth.

Building doctrine on anything other than the Word of God opens the door to heresy and the RCC is proof of it.