Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)

[DHK]

Originally posted by BrianT:
EXACTLY!!! And you said Carson lied!!!

By your very own logic, either you owe Carson a big apology, or you have proved that Jesus was being literal but lying. Any other logical conclusion is "a double standard" and "plain hypocrisy".

No, you have your logic backwards. Let's go through it again.
Catholics teach: the bread represents the body of Christ.
Jesus said: "This is my body" In saying that Catholics believe that the bread IS the body.
The question here is: Did Jesus mean that the bread represented his body, or was his actual literal body, as the Catholics claim.

I used Carson's picture to point out the fallacy of your (the Catholic's) teaching.
Carson said (about his picture): This is Fr. Stan.
Was it Fr. Stan or not.
No, it was not. It was a pictre, a representative of him. It was not the real Fr. Stan. To say so would be lying, deceptive at the very least. If it isn't lying, then Carson is simply using the same figure of speech that Jesus used and has no right to say that the bread and wine are literally the body and blood of Christ. Those are literal words of Christ, just as the literal words of Carson were "this is Fr. Stan. Both were symbolic. If both were telling the truth, then both were using a picture. Carson could only be telling the truth if he admits that the bread and wine are representative of the the body and blood of Christ. Either both are representative, or both are not. You can't have it both ways. Either Christ is lying or Carson is lying, which is it?
DHK

 

[MikeS]

Simple question for you, DHK: Could Jesus have turned bread and wine into His Body and Blood if He willed it to be so? Yes or No, please.

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by DHK:
Either both are representative, or both are not. You can't have it both ways.

Either both Carson and Jesus are God, or both are not. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Charles33]

Lets be fair and use our 'self evident' common sense. DHK suggests that the 'disciples' of Jesus knew He was only being symbolic. The text is literal. This can be seen both ways with a little bending here and there.

The answer to me is obvious. On such a very core element of worship as the Eucharist, turn to the course of action that the early Christians actually followed, who did not merely play on the trickery of words, but recievd their gospel and worship traditions from the Apostles. They uniformly taught the literal understanding, which is fine by me, because the text is also literal.

It is self-evident, common sense, that all the churches could not have fell into completey 'uniform' error on such a core point of worship. It is unbelieveable that there was no controversy over somethign like this, when Irenaus wrote hundreds of pages of against heretical teachings.

For 1500+ years this worship and understanding was evident, and not invented by Constantine. Now 1500 years later, wham bam! - New major truth here...and I am supposed to just believe this based on some metaphorical theory, coming from those who have left the Church, out on their own, re-inventing doctrines?

There is no evidence that any early Christians believed this to be symbolic. Start a thread, sounds like we are ready to do this one again.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by DHK:
No, you have your logic backwards.

No, I understand what you're saying. YOU have it backwards. Let me illustrate:

1. Carson points to a picture.
1. Jesus points to some bread.

2. Carson says "this is Fr. Stan"
2. Jesus says "this is my body"

3. DHK thinks "Carson is being symbolic".
3. DHK thinks "Jesus is being symbolic".

4. DHK then says "Carson, don't lie to us."
4. DHK then must say "Jesus, don't lie to us."

The place where your whole argument breaks down is that Carson did not mean that the picture was the real, literal, physical Fr. Stan, and you knew it, yet you said he was lying anyway.

If it isn't lying, then Carson is simply using the same figure of speech that Jesus used

Unless, of course, Jesus wasn't simply using a figure of speech in the first place, while Carson was.

Those are literal words of Christ, just as the literal words of Carson were "this is Fr. Stan. Both were symbolic.

Logically, how does Carson's "symbolic" words about "this is Fr. Stan" prove Christ was also being symbolic about "this is my body"? Why doesn't Carson's "symbolic" words about "this is Fr. Stan" also then prove God was also being symbolic about "this is my beloved Son"? Carson's words are not the filter by which we interpret scripture.

You can't have it both ways. Either Christ is lying or Carson is lying, which is it?

You're assuming they both used the same figure of speech, to prove they both used the same figure of speech. The logic doesn't work.

 

[BrianT]

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Charles33:
Lets be fair and use our 'self evident' common sense. DHK suggests that the 'disciples' of Jesus knew He was only being symbolic. The text is literal. This can be seen both ways with a little bending here and there.

The answer to me is obvious. On such a very core element of worship as the Eucharist, turn to the course of action that the early Christians actually followed, who did not merely play on the trickery of words, but recievd their gospel and worship traditions from the Apostles. They uniformly taught the literal understanding, which is fine by me, because the text is also literal.

Good point. The alternative, as Mark Shea points out, is to believe that the apostles and disciples believed so strongly in the faith given them by Christ that they died for it, but at the same time they immediately and completely botched it up.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MikeS:
Simple question for you, DHK: Could Jesus have turned bread and wine into His Body and Blood if He willed it to be so? Yes or No, please.

No. There are some things that God cannot do.
God cannot lie. Scripture makes that clear.
God cannot do anything that is against His nature to do so.
God will not go against His Word or His promises.
God will not clone Himself or make a duplicate of himself, like you are implicating--it is against His nature to do so.
When He said "This is my body" He was already in His body. The implications of this statement:

1. Cannibalism.
2. Cloning
3. Eating flesh and blood--strictly prohibited in both O.T. and N.T. (Acts 15)

Clearly Christ would not go against His Word, against His nature, against common sense.
DHK

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeS:
Simple question for you, DHK: Could Jesus have turned bread and wine into His Body and Blood if He willed it to be so? Yes or No, please.

No. There are some things that God cannot do.
God cannot lie. Scripture makes that clear.
God cannot do anything that is against His nature to do so.
God will not go against His Word or His promises.
God will not clone Himself or make a duplicate of himself, like you are implicating--it is against His nature to do so.
When He said "This is my body" He was already in His body. The implications of this statement:

1. Cannibalism.
2. Cloning
3. Eating flesh and blood--strictly prohibited in both O.T. and N.T. (Acts 15)

Clearly Christ would not go against His Word, against His nature, against common sense.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]But it's OK for God to symbolically do these things that are so evil that He cannot do them in actuality?

The cloning argument is bogus and silly -- suggest you drop that one right away!

BTW, what is your definition of "cannibalism"? What flesh and blood are we forbidden from eating?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MikeS:
But it's OK for God to symbolically do these things that are so evil that He cannot do them in actuality?

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

It was bread, as the Word says it was, and wine or juice, as is also implied here. These two elements were symbolic of the Lord's death, as it says in this one verse. We do remember the Lord's death. We don't eat Christ; we remember Him.

 

[MikeS]

Clearly Christ would not go...against common sense.
DHK [/QB]

You mean like becoming one of His own lowly creatures, and then letting His other lowly creatures kill Him?

Do you really think Christianity is a religion of common sense?!

 

[John3v36]

The below was taken from:
http://www.freedomfromcatholicism.com/KingJames1.html

Freedom From Catholicism

Mary Ann Collins
(A Former Catholic Nun)
******************************************


Doctrines of Demons

The Bible says "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth" (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The Bible connects doctrines of demons with a combination of two things: (1) forbidding marriage and (2) forbidding people to eat certain foods.

Catholic doctrines led to the conclusion that people should be tortured and killed for eating meat during Lent. This is totally contrary to the teaching and example of Jesus Christ. It is a demonstration that the Catholic Church has been listening to deceiving spirits and teaching doctrines of demons. Other Catholic doctrines of demons include papal infallibility, Purgatory and doctrines which promote veneration of the Virgin Mary.

Some Catholic doctrines are true teachings from the Bible. These include the facts that Jesus Christ died to save us from our sins and He was resurrected from the dead. The Bible tells us to test every teaching and every doctrine by comparing it with what the Bible says.

(1) "And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:10-11).

(2) "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).

(3) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Heavenly Father, I renounce every doctrine which comes from demons. I repent of having believed them. I repent of having agreed with the devil. I declare that the Roman Catholic Church teaches doctrines of demons but it also teaches some true things which come from the Bible. Please help me recognize the difference between them. Help me know what is true and what is false. Please give me clear discernment. Please enable me to recognize whether or not teachings are consistent with the Bible and with Your nature and character. In the name of Jesus. Amen.

 

[John3v36]

Originally posted by Charles33:
John3v36 said:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Every person God use thoghout history is ORDINARY.

What is extroidinary is God use ordinary to do extroidinary things.

Let me say what you are not saying. You are saying no created person in and of themselves, MERITS salvation. Thats what you really mean. And that is not at all what I am talking about. I am talking about the things God does to and for people in the course of their lives for his purposes.

</font>[/QUOTE]No that is not what I am saying.
it is true that no body merit salvation.
but that not the point I was making.

What made Brother Paul Great lets let him tell us.

Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

it was the "gift of the grace of God"

Apart from Gods Grace he would have just be ordinary guy.


Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Just ordinary guy who God is doing extroidinary things for His Glory.

St John

 

[Charles33]

I'm sorry John 3v36, posting this propaganda frankly does nothing except polarize people to your posts. They see your post, they blow right by it because you don't challenge anyone to think, you just cut and paste that stuff off of some web site. In case your slow, Catholics here don't believe that stuff

How about trying this one for more responses. Cut and paste some of that stuff, and then, just like we ask fifth graders to do in school, put it in your own words, and back it up with facts.

If you don't engage our minds, you'll just engage our boredom. Your posts are getting real boring. Notice DHK's posts. Similar in nature to yours, but he actually gets lot of responses. Why?

 

[Kathryn]

Christ would not go against common sense? That was a good one, DHK. Jesus Christ is God. He can do miracles. God can do anything. Remember the water into wine. It was real wine. It didn’t just look like wine. It didn't represent wine. The water became the finest wine. This first miracle went against common sense. “… we walk by faith, not by sight…” --2 Corinthians 5:7

God Bless

 

[Harley4Him]

Is there a policy about repeatedly posting material of suspect veracity John? I'm kinda new here, but I would have expected a Christian board to have relatively high standards for citations.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeS:
But it's OK for God to symbolically do these things that are so evil that He cannot do them in actuality?

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

It was bread, as the Word says it was, and wine or juice, as is also implied here. These two elements were symbolic of the Lord's death, as it says in this one verse. We do remember the Lord's death. We don't eat Christ; we remember Him. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you think you could please answer the question? You didn't answer it.

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Christ would not go against common sense? That was a good one, DHK. Jesus Christ is God. He can do miracles. God can do anything. Remember the water into wine. It was real wine. It didn’t just look like wine. It didn't represent wine. The water became the finest wine. This first miracle went against common sense. “… we walk by faith, not by sight…” --2 Corinthians 5:7

God Bless

Gee, Kathryn, I suppose next you'll be telling us that Christ didn't stay dead, but that he actually rose from the dead! Wow! Don't you Christians have any common sense?!

 

[John3v36]

Originally posted by Harley4Him:
Is there a policy about repeatedly posting material of suspect veracity John? I'm kinda new here, but I would have expected a Christian board to have relatively high standards for citations.

You keep saying the samething over and over and over.
I would have expected a Christian board to have relatively high standards.

I started this Post with the hope that some of the RC people would read Mary Ann Collins site. and we could go over the issue she brings up.

You call it "suspect veracity" But I don't see it that way. I was in the bondage of the roman system and came out just as Mary Ann Collins did I see the issue she brings up are from someone who was in the middle of all the corruption and has a view people on the fringe can not have. The veracity, fidelity, accuracy, & truthfulness I find very refreshing.

BTW

The below was taken from:
http://www.freedomfromcatholicism.com/KingJames1.html

Freedom From Catholicism

Mary Ann Collins
(A Former Catholic Nun)
******************************************

Saints

The Bible does not talk about a special class of especially holy people who are called saints. In the New Testament every Christian believer is called a saint. The Catholic Church has a special group of people which it calls saints. This is wrong for several reasons.

(1) Only God has the authority and the wisdom to correctly judge people.

(2) The Bible says that God does not have special favorites. He listens to the prayers of everybody who loves Him.

(3) To elevate a group of Christians above all other Christians is a form of idolatry.

(4) The Bible calls all Christians saints. (See Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; Romans 1:7; 8:27; 12:13; 15:25,26,31; 16:2,15; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 6:1,2; 14:33; 16:1,15; 2 Corinthians 1:1; 8:4; 9:1,12; 13:13; Ephesians 1:1,15,18; 2:19; 3:8,18; 4:12; 5:3; 6:18; Philippians 1:1; 4:22; Colossians 1:2,4,12,26; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Timothy 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Hebrews 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3,14.)

If you were named after a saint or were given a saint's name at confirmation then you need to renounce your connection with that saint. If you have a patron saint then you need to renounce your connection with that saint and repent of having turned to that saint with your needs instead of turning directly to God.

Jesus told us that God is our Father. Children have direct access to their fathers. They don't need to approach them through intermediaries. Our Heavenly Father hears our prayers because He loves us and because we are His children.

Heavenly Father, I renounce any connection which I have had with any Catholic saint. I repent of being influenced by their penances and mystical experiences. I repent of everything which I did to honor any saint. I repent of asking saints to pray for me. Please remove any harmful influence that saints have had in my life. Please set me free from any confusion which saints have caused. I want my life to be based on Your truth which You have revealed in the Bible. In the name of Jesus. Amen.

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by John3v36:
The below was taken from:
http://www.freedomfromcatholicism.com/KingJames1.html

Freedom From Catholicism

Mary Ann Collins
(A Former Catholic Nun)
******************************************

At some point you may want to save yourself (and us) a lot of time by just posting "ibid" whenever the urge to celebrate your freedom from bondage overcomes you...