Mary, Salvation, and Sin Offering

[SovereignGrace]

 

[SovereignGrace]

 

[SovereignGrace]

 

[SovereignGrace]

 

[SovereignGrace]

 

[SovereignGrace]

Doing what the RCC does in bowing before those idols...and kissing them to boot...is no different than bowing down to Dagon, Moloch, or Dianna.

 

[Walter]

Hmmm, must be 'worshipping' the pope, eh???? lol The act of kneeling does not always mean that the person kneeling is performing an act of worship. Catholics kneel in front of the pope to show him respect and honor they are not kneeling to worship him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Look at those other pics. Praying and kissing an inanimate object is idolatry. Period. End of story.

 

[Walter]

Adonia...

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,[Romans 3:23]
For as in Adam all die,[1 Corinthians 15:22]

All ppl's of all time fit under these two verses, including Mary.

To say Mary never had intercourse with Joseph is to deny the scripture of But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.[Matthew 1:25] Now how does a married couple consummate a marriage? I'll tell you it is not via a hand shake.

The RCC are saying that if Mary had had other children, then she would have been a sinner. Intercourse done within the confines of a marriage is a most blessed occurrence, as it was blessed by the Almighty Himself.

So tell me about Enoch. Why was he assumed into Heaven???

 

[SovereignGrace]

So tell me about Enoch. Why was he assumed into Heaven???

He was translated...transferred to heaven. He plesased God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So tell me about Enoch. Why was he assumed into Heaven???

And bowing to idols does not please God.

 

[Walter]

To say Mary and Joseph never had intercourse is a horrid stance. We can plainly read But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.[Matthew 1:25] The word used in the NIV I used is the word 'know' used by the KJV. This is what the Greek word used means Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. No matter how you try to twist it, Mary was not sinless, even before conception, let alone her whole life. And by her having intercourse with Joseph in no way defiled her.

She did, in fact, have children. We can read "Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”[Matthew 13:56] The Greek word for 'sisters' means full, own sister, one connected by the tie of the Christian religion. Now, the context does not refer to them as His Sisters as being believers, but His natural sisters, half-sisters seeing Joseph and Mary had them.

Excerp from the following webpage: http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num27.htm

"Here are biblical and historical reasons why your conclusion is wrong.



MATTHEW 1:25 AND "UNTIL"



What does "until" mean according to the Bible? Check this out (loosly translated) --

Gen 8:7 -- the raven "did not return TILL the waters were dried up..." Question: Did the raven return? NO!

Deut 34:6 -- Moses died "and no one knows his grave TILL this day." Question: Have we found Moses' grave? NO!

2 Sam 6:23 -- Michal "had no children TILL the day of her death." Question: Did she have children after she died? NO!

1 Macc 5:54 -- "...not one of them was slain TILL they had returned in peace." Was Judas M and his troops killed when they returned? NO!

Luke 1:80 -- John the B "was in the deserts TILL the day of his manifestation to Israel." Did John the B stay in the desert? YES! (cf. Matt 3:1; Mark 1:3-4; Luke 3:2-4)

John 4:49 -- "Sir, come down BEFORE my child dies!" Did he die? NO!

Rom 8:22 -- "...the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together UNTIL now." Is it still groaning? YES! <groan>

1 Cor 15:25 -- "For He must reign TILL He has put all enemies under His feet." After all enemies are put away, will Christ be reigning? YES!

Eph 4:12-13 -- "...for the equipping...for the work of ministry.... for the edifying....TILL we all come to the unity of the faith...." Once we become unified, will equipping, ministry, and edification still be necessary? YES!

1 Tim 4:13 -- "TILL I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine." When Paul arrives, no more reading, no more exhorting, no more doctrine? NO!

1 Tim 6:14 -- "....that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless UNTIL our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing..." When Jesus comes back, we should disobey these commandments? NO!

Rev 2:25-26 -- "But hold fast what you have TILL I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works UNTIL the end, to him I will give power..." Should we stop holding fast and stop obeying when Jesus returns? NO!

Okay, that shows Matt 1:18,25 does not disprove the perpetual virginity of Mary. For positive biblical evidence that Mary intended to remain a virgin even in marriage, why would she ask the angel Gabriel --

"How can this be, since I do not know a man?" (Luke 1:34)"

 

[annsni]

Well, Ann, we have been round and round about this one for years, eh? As a Catholic I my love for Jesus Christ has become much deeper and much richer than it even did as a Baptist. I don't worship Mary or the saints and have never worshipped statues (although I have them in various places of my home). I know WHO and WHAT I worship! I observed Baptists who appeared to worship the bible (bibliolatry), and I'm betting because of your bias you would never admit that takes place. Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics like yourself confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.

Bowing can be used as a posture in worship, but I will remind you AGAIN that not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. Christians in the UK give the queen a 'bow' (curtsey). A Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than a Baptist like you who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.

I'm sorry but veneration would be worship in this case. I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic school. I know worship when I see it. I don't know of any one person who prays to the Bible but I know millions pray to "saints" and Mary.

I agree that we won't agree but I can safely say that what the Catholic church does is clear cut idolatry.

 

[annsni]

Excerp from the following webpage: http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num27.htm

"Here are biblical and historical reasons why your conclusion is wrong.



MATTHEW 1:25 AND "UNTIL"



What does "until" mean according to the Bible? Check this out (loosly translated) --

Gen 8:7 -- the raven "did not return TILL the waters were dried up..." Question: Did the raven return? NO!

Deut 34:6 -- Moses died "and no one knows his grave TILL this day." Question: Have we found Moses' grave? NO!

2 Sam 6:23 -- Michal "had no children TILL the day of her death." Question: Did she have children after she died? NO!

1 Macc 5:54 -- "...not one of them was slain TILL they had returned in peace." Was Judas M and his troops killed when they returned? NO!

Luke 1:80 -- John the B "was in the deserts TILL the day of his manifestation to Israel." Did John the B stay in the desert? YES! (cf. Matt 3:1; Mark 1:3-4; Luke 3:2-4)

John 4:49 -- "Sir, come down BEFORE my child dies!" Did he die? NO!

Rom 8:22 -- "...the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together UNTIL now." Is it still groaning? YES! <groan>

1 Cor 15:25 -- "For He must reign TILL He has put all enemies under His feet." After all enemies are put away, will Christ be reigning? YES!

Eph 4:12-13 -- "...for the equipping...for the work of ministry.... for the edifying....TILL we all come to the unity of the faith...." Once we become unified, will equipping, ministry, and edification still be necessary? YES!

1 Tim 4:13 -- "TILL I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine." When Paul arrives, no more reading, no more exhorting, no more doctrine? NO!

1 Tim 6:14 -- "....that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless UNTIL our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing..." When Jesus comes back, we should disobey these commandments? NO!

Rev 2:25-26 -- "But hold fast what you have TILL I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works UNTIL the end, to him I will give power..." Should we stop holding fast and stop obeying when Jesus returns? NO!

Okay, that shows Matt 1:18,25 does not disprove the perpetual virginity of Mary. For positive biblical evidence that Mary intended to remain a virgin even in marriage, why would she ask the angel Gabriel --

"How can this be, since I do not know a man?" (Luke 1:34)"

Each of these "till" have an end point listed and then the command changes, does it not? Of course it does.

 

[Walter]

I have not read the entire thread, but I have read more than one post accusing Catholics of 'praying to dead people'. If the saints that died in the body are also dead in the soul then how does one explain Rev 6:9-10 " And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" ? How does one explain Elijiah and Moses coming back to earth: " And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him." Matt 17:3 ?

 

[DHK]

I have not read the entire thread, but I have read more than one post accusing Catholics of 'praying to dead people'. If the saints that died in the body are also dead in the soul then how does one explain Rev 6:9-10 " And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" ? How does one explain Elijiah and Moses coming back to earth: " And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him." Matt 17:3 ?

The entire event is future. John was "transported" to heaven looking at what is happening or going to happen in the future. He has been given the ability to see what the human eye cannot see.

Dead refers to the body. The only one that has risen from the dead is Jesus Christ. He alone in this sense is "alive." Mohammed is dead; he is the grave. Confucius is dead; his body lies in the grave. Buddha is dead. He is in the grave.
But if you look into the tomb of Jesus you find it empty. He is not there. He is risen. He is alive. He is risen from the dead.

However, we await the redemption of our bodies. Our resurrection has not yet taken place.
One doesn't go into the cemetery and pray TO their great grandfather or great grandmother or other relatives. They have that knowledge that they are dead, and if saved they will see them in heaven some day. We cannot pray to them. Neither can we pray for them. They are dead.

 

[Adonia]

No?

In all the parishes I have been I have never seen such things happen. The closest we have come is the veneration of the Cross, the very same type of Cross used to hang our Savior on. I don't particularly like what is shown in those pictures, but if that is the worst thing that happens it's no big deal to me - I don't engage in such actions. I believe that from the Apostolic Succesion right down to how we worship with Jesus being the focus of the Mass and with his real presence in the Holy Eucharist, the Catholic Church is more right than wrong on all the pivotal Christian issues and biblical teachings.

 

[Adonia]

The bowing before those idols was not in respect but in prayer, Walter. Huge difference than bowing to ppl in Japan. They were bowed before them in prayer. A huge no no.

As I said before I don't care for this sort of thing but, who were they praying to and what was in their minds as they did this? Did any of them think the statue was God and were they worshipping the statue? I don't think so.

Now let's go to the Scriptures and see in one of the great commandments where God says that no graven images should be made - period! He then orders that the images of the Cherubim be affixed to the Ark of the Covenant. Call me crazy, but am I seeing some sort of contradiction here?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have not read the entire thread, but I have read more than one post accusing Catholics of 'praying to dead people'. If the saints that died in the body are also dead in the soul then how does one explain Rev 6:9-10 " And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" ? How does one explain Elijiah and Moses coming back to earth: " And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him." Matt 17:3 ?

However, Peter, James, and John neither prayed to, or worshipped Moses and Elias(Elijah).

 

[SovereignGrace]

As I said before I don't care for this sort of thing but, who were they praying to and what was in their minds as they did this? Did any of them think the statue was God and were they worshipping the statue? I don't think so.

Now let's go to the Scriptures and see in one of the great commandments where God says that no graven images should be made - period! He then orders that the images of the Cherubim be affixed to the Ark of the Covenant. Call me crazy, but am I seeing some sort of contradiction here?

None were commanded to bow to those cherubim either. But the RCC bends their knees at every statute they come to it seems.