Mary the mother of God?

[JohnB]

Sounds like we have a number of proto-Roman Catholic Baptists here

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by JohnB:
Sounds like we have a number of proto-Roman Catholic Baptists here

I think some others who agree with my position on this topic will be offended by this. But I am not. I am not afraid of being labelled as pro-Catholic on many issues even though I know many baptists are strong anti-Catholics.

Catholic theology is right about many things. The appropriateness of giving the title theotokos to Mary being one of them.

I do not let the fact that I disagree with Catholic theology on many issues cloud my judgement about their positions.

Most seem to think that the RCC started in 1054 and would consider the council of Ephesus of 431 where the theotokos title was decided upon to be a non-Catholic decision.

I would say that The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which divided into the RCC and EOC in 1054 convened the council of Ephesus that decided on the title theotokos and were correct in their decision.

 

[webdog]

So if Mary get's the title of "mother of God", do Jesus' brothers and sisters get the title of "brother or sister of God"? What about Joseph as the "step father of God"? If not, it's a double standard.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by webdog:
So if Mary get's the title of "mother of God", do Jesus' brothers and sisters get the title of "brother or sister of God"? What about Joseph as the "step father of God"? If not, it's a double standard.

I see those as appropriate titles if we wanted to give them titles.

Of course it would be inappropriate to call them brothers and sisters of the Trinity or step father of God the Father.

[ November 28, 2005, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Gold Dragon ]

 

[Helen]

It was Mary's BODY through which the incarnation occurred. That made her the physical mother of the physical child, Jesus. Joseph was the physical step-father and Jesus had physical brothers and sisters. He had a lot of physical cousins and aunts and uncles, too, I am sure!

However, when we speak of GOD, we are talking about spirit, and there is NO mother of God. God, as Triune and spirit, is eternal, thus nullifying the concept of a 'mother of God'.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Helen:
However, when we speak of GOD, we are talking about spirit, and there is NO mother of God. God, as Triune and spirit, is eternal, thus nullifying the concept of a 'mother of God'.

Everyone who uses the title theotokos would agree that it is inappropriate to call Mary the mother of the Trinity or mother of God the Spirit.

But she was mother of Jesus who is God.

Using the title Theotokos to describe Mary affirms the Trinity that Jesus is God.

 

[Bunyon]

But the Catholics also give Mary the title "Queen of Heaven". How's that for elevating her above other women?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
But the Catholics also give Mary the title "Queen of Heaven". How's that for elevating her above other women?

This is a different title and irrelevant to this discussion. There are many titles that Catholics have for Mary that I consider inappropriate. Theotokos is not one of them.

 

[Bunyon]

It is not irrelevent unless you are afraid your posistion will be compromised. When discussing a title that the catholics use for Mary, you don't think other titles used by the catholic church would have a bearing on the title in question. Come on. Some of the posters feel Mother Of God unduley eleveates Mary, So this other title would suggest these posters have a legitimate concern.

 

[webdog]

Also, to claim that mary is the "mother of God" would mean she would be the mother of God the Father and the Holy Spirit besides Jesus as all three are God. To deduct that Mary is the mother of Jesus...therefore since Jesus is God, she must be the mother of God is not taking into account that Jesus ALONE is not God. This makes the "mother of God" title false.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
Some of the posters feel Mother Of God unduley eleveates Mary, So this other title would suggest these posters have a legitimate concern.

I would recommend your read what you wrote again.

Why would other titles that unduly elevate Mary mean that the title "Mother of God" unduly elevates Mary?

That is like saying Supreme Ruler of America unduly elevates Bush so another title like President of the United States also unduly elevates Bush.

 

[Bunyon]

Also, catholic art often depicts mary as the queen of heaven standing on a crescent moon with stars above her head.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by webdog:
Also, to claim that mary is the "mother of God" would mean she would be the mother of God the Father and the Holy Spirit besides Jesus as all three are God.

Yes all three are God, but Mary was not the mother of all three and no one who uses the title Theotokos would say that Mother of God the Father, Mother of God the Holy Spirit or Mother of the Trinity are appropriate titles for Mary.

Originally posted by webdog:
To deduct that Mary is the mother of Jesus...therefore since Jesus is God, she must be the mother of God is not taking into account that Jesus ALONE is not God.

You have made the assertation that Theotokos refers to Mary being the mother of God the Father or the mother of the Trinity. Those who properly use that title do not make such an assertation.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
Also, catholic art often depicts mary as the queen of heaven standing on a crescent moon with stars above her head.

Again, irrelevant to a discussion about the title Theotokos.

 

[webdog]

God is not "God" unless the Three as One are "God". Again, to claim that Mary is the mother of God, God by definition as the Triune God, would be a false statement. There is no getting around the fact that God is three in one.

 

[Bunyon]

I think the issue is what does it mean today and what has it meant traditionally for catholics.
Catholics also believe that Mary was a sinnless vessel. The immaculant conception to Catholics refers to mary's sinnless womb. These things really shed alot of light on what the Catholic Chruch means when it say, Mother of God.

 

[JohnB]

Bunyon,

Actually, the doctrine of perpetual virginity applies to Mary's sinless womb. That she was a virgin when Christ was concieved and remained a virgin her entire life.

The immaculate conception is the doctrine that Mary herself was concieved without sin (and was thus sinless.)

 

[Bunyon]

"The immaculate conception is the doctrine that Mary herself was concieved without sin (and was thus sinless.)"-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, thanks for the education JohnB. I am floored. I think that is pretty close to what I said, but I did not adress her perpetual virginity at all. Just that she was considered a sinless vessel for Christ.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by webdog:
God is not "God" unless the Three as One are "God".

I would say this statement is dangerously close to a modalist non-Trinitarian statement about God, in particular the part of the doctrine of the Trinity that addresses that there are three distinct persons or hypostases.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Just an fyi that the immaculate conception is the doctrine that Mary was concieved without Original Sin. Catholics acknowledge that she sinned in her lifetime.