Mary's blood ransomed the world!?

[GraceSaves]

Brian,

Take what Trying said, but add that if this booklet contains an Imprimatur, that means it accurately represents Catholic doctrine without error.

I don't own the booklet, though I do own some Marian books that speak in similar language that do have the Chruch's approval. I wouldn't recommend these books except to those who are already familiar and comfortable with the Church's Marian teachings, because as we see, the flowerly language can be taken out of context easily.

If I would have read this two years ago, I would have freaked out. However, I avoided that until I learned the cores of the Catholic faith in regards to Mary, and now I can read these, with the prior understanding of Catholic theology, and not take things out of context.

God bless,

Grant

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Rakka Rage:
if you don't like it, get out.

I generally don't like deceit. I especially don't like it when it is in the form of slanderous lies concerning the Church.

the title is not misleading.

blood from Mary's veins = Mary's blood

blood from Mary's veins ransomed the world = Mary's blood ransomed the world

Your logic stands only by ignoring context and the author's intent. Truth requires both. Deceit hides both behind logic such as yours.

you are disgraceful.

I have rightly labled your behavior as digraceful. You on the other hand choose to lable me personally. Big difference.

get lost if you are not going to contribute to the discusion.

Pointing out the deceit is a significant contribution to the discussion.

[ February 12, 2003, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Could it be argued that the quotation in question is an overstatement of Marian theology?

I'm not sure what you mean by overstatement, exactly. Is it very flowery and romantic language? Yes, definitely. That makes it harder to understand, because it's almost poetic in nature, which takes a lot more study than just general theological presentation. That is why I'm going to have to study it carefully before attempting to accurately explain it. I seriously doubt it is saying something that the Catholic Church does not teach, but it is said, again, in romantic language, and that needs to be understood before trying to discern its plain meaning.

This is not a catechism; it's meant for devotion and faith enrichment, not necessarily for studying from scratch.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Briguy]

Ron and Grant, Thanks and that is what I thought. It seems this has not been a very good thread as it has caused some bad feelings. I'm glad you both see how the wording of this author is strong and can easily be taken out of context if one is not very very careful. Thanks again for your answers to my questions

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Rakka Rage]

I generally don't like deceit.

i didn't ask what you like. if you do not like deceit, then stop decieving.

I especially don't like it when it is in the form of slanderous lies concerning the Church.

like i said... if you have nothing to contribute... get lost. calling me a slanderous liar is not contributing no matter what you "think"

Your logic stands only by ignoring context and the author's intent. Truth requires both. Deceit hides both behind logic such as yours.

and your logic is non-existant. your posts are mearly weak attacks.

I have rightly labled your behavior as digraceful. You on the other hand choose to lable me personally. Big difference.

i have rightly labeled you personally.

Pointing out the deceit is a significant contribution to the discussion.

your pointing out of deceit, is itself deceit

 

[GraceSaves]

Umm, can we get a moderator in here? Good grief.

God bless,

Grant

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Could it be argued that the quotation in question is an overstatement of Marian theology?

I'm not sure what you mean by overstatement, exactly.</font>[/QUOTE]Hyperbole. Like saying that a given sandwich is "the best sandwich ever made!!!" or some such.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Umm, can we get a moderator in here? Good grief.

God bless,

Grant

I reported the post, for what good it will do.

 

[CatholicConvert]

I have a couple of minutes. Need to say something quickly.

My Catholic brothers:

You cannot begin to understand how OFFENSIVE to the ears of the average Protestant the quotes on Mary sound. To say things like "all salvation comes through her" "God Himself must obey her requests (Alphonse Liguouri) and other such statements absolutely smack of giving to the Blessed Virgin such power, glory, and authority as Almighty God holds to and of Himself.

This is one of the severe problems with Catholic theology. You seem to think that because you were raised to understand this in this manner and that it sounds pleasant and understandable to your ears, that all other Christians should and must understand these statements. They simply cannot, and their love for Christ makes such statements highly offensive to them.

I am saying this because I found myself twitching as I read the quotes on the power, authority, and glory of the Blessed Virgin. And I pray to Her regularly!!! What then of those who have never been taught of these things??

The only way that I can reconcile these statements with the glory of God is to understand that the Blessed Virgin is the New Eve of the New Covenant, and as such Her power, glory, and authority are derived from Her union with Her divine Son, Who is the Last Adam. By understanding the nature of a covenantal relationship I can understand that the Blessed Virgin does all these things as part of Her "one flesh" union with Christ Jesus Her divine Son as the Covenantal Head. She is the New Eve, and fulfills the same role as the first Eve - that of helpmeet to the covenantal head.

The covenantal helpmeet bears the authority of the covenantal head and acts in his name. In the nuclear family, this is worked out between the husband and the wife. To insult the wife is to insult the husband. To dishonor Mommy is to dishonor Daddy, and the children are quickly made aware that such will NOT be tolerated!!

This is where Catholicism is unfortunately very wordy with little light. Making such statements, apart from giving an understanding of HOW this relationship works can only be offensive to non-Catholics. It is a shame that there were so many imprudent statements made by people who's zeal ran far beyond their common sense in thinking out what effect such statements would have upon non Catholics.

There is a real need for clear and precise (NOT WORDY!!) statements regarding the covenantal nature of the redemptive union between the Blessed Virgin, our beloved Mother in the Faith, and Her Son, and how that works out that She has been given all that She has in Him. And this power and authority needs to be pointed back to Eden where both Adam and Eve bore God's authority by dint of their union with God as His beloved children.

Brother Ed

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Umm, can we get a moderator in here? Good grief.

God bless,

Grant

I reported the post, for what good it will do. </font>[/QUOTE]My apologies for being tardy. My email box is full of reports today and I had little time on line until now.

Please, let's keep an air of civility to the discussions and debates in this forum.

Ed, thanks for the perspective in the first paragraph of your post.

I try to remain hands off in my moderating, particularly in this forum. It would be unreasonable to think that the nature of debate between opposing doctrines would not get emotional and heated. We're all arguing for we believe in. However, this is a Christian site visited by many hundreds of people a day. In the eyes of the lurker, debate is not always won in the facts and arguments presented but also by the demeanor and attitude of the debator. Please keep this in mind as you post. After all this is a Christian ministry.

Thank you

Clint Kritzer
Moderator

 

[Ps104_33]

Some how this doesn't ring true. Seems like it would be more honest to say, "Sorry."

Perhaps you could explain the other part.

"Get ready for the two-sided double talking "Vatican shuffle" on this one."

Such a "shuffle" would be unnecessary if "ransomed by her blood" were merely just another bigotted anti-Catholic hatefilled lie.

Apparently you think that a "Vatican shuffle" is needed. Apparently you got taken in by the slanderous lie. Maybe even contributed to it by repeating it as though it were true?

Like I said, it seems like it would be more honest to say, "Sorry."

Trying,
I dont think an apology is really necessary, do you? But if your skin is getting a little thin, I'm Sorry.

I totally agree with Ed's above post. Tere are alot of extremists in the Roman Catholic Faith when it comes to Mary. I asked you if you thought Liguori's beliefs were extreme and you chose to ignore the question.
Pope Pius IX couldn't write a single encyclical without giving Mary a prominent place, yet there are 21 Apostolic letters and she is not mentioned in one and Roman Catholics dont seem to see anything wrong with the overemphisizing of Mary.

 

[Carson Weber]

Tere are alot of extremists in the Roman Catholic Faith when it comes to Mary.

Like those extremists in the early 3rd century who prayed this prayer?

We fly to your patronage, O Holy Mother of God:
despise not our petitions in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O Glorious and Blessed Virgin.

there are 21 Apostolic letters and she is not mentioned in one and Roman Catholics dont seem to see anything wrong with the overemphisizing of Mary.

Gal 4:4

 

[Ps104_33]

Carson,
It says "born of a woman". It proves my point. Why didnt Paul mention her by name? Is that the best you could come up with?

 

[Carson Weber]

Is that the best you could come up with?

Nope.

The best I can come up with is the entire Biblical revelation about Mary, which begins with Eve and finishes with the Ark of the New Covenant in Rev 11:19 & 12:1ff.

 

[LisaMC]

I find these verses enlightening:

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

 

[Ps104_33]

The best I can come up with is the entire Biblical revelation about Mary, which begins with Eve and finishes with the Ark of the New Covenant in Rev 11:19 & 12:1ff.

Yes, if you eisegete all the passages to fit a preconieved and false theology.

 

[Carson Weber]

Yes, if you eisegete all the passages to fit a preconieved and false theology.

Well, that's generous of you, and charitable as well.

If you keep it up, you'll have me converted by next week.

I don't have time for this. Goodnight.

 

[GraceSaves]

Psalm,

I don't think Ed was calling their beliefs extreme. He was referring to their wording, which is overly complex and romantic, and hard for the lay man to discern. That doesn't mean their beliefs are "extreme" or wrong.

If Ed meant this, that we will discuss that. Do you concur with me, Ed? Or did you mean that their beliefs are extreme?

God bless,

Grant

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The best I can come up with is the entire Biblical revelation about Mary, which begins with Eve and finishes with the Ark of the New Covenant in Rev 11:19 & 12:1ff.

Yes, if you eisegete all the passages to fit a preconieved and false theology. </font>[/QUOTE]Psalm,

Your whole theology is preconceived. You didn't just pick up a Bible one day, all by yourself, and come to your whole Christian (namely, Baptist) theology. It has been impressioned on you since childhood, by parents, pastors, friends, family, siblings, etc, etc, etc. Add on that the 2,000 or so years of Church history that preceeded all these people to further their own understanding.

Don't pretend like your beliefs did not preceed you and were not handed down to you.

God bless,

Grant

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Grant, Ron and Gerald (thanks for sharing your name). The quotes that have been used on this thread are not even "official" church teaching right? Aren't they just one persons thoughts on the issue.

I may be going out on a limb but if you three were writing a paper on Mary's position in the "church" it probably would be written differently then the author of the quotes we have been discussing, right?

Just curious.

In Christ,
Brian

Yhe quotes are not infallible statements, yet from what I see they do not contradict Church teaching IF UNDERSTOOD PROPERLY. They are speaking of something that is very difficult to speak of. The words also are written in theological language that is very precise so as to give full perspective. The relationship of the Son of God to the mother who loved him and her relationship to us as our spiritual mother. Would I write those things? Probably not. But I view it more as my lack of understanding and depth if I would not. The Mother points only to her son. I see no problem thinking that she had a far greater love, knowlege, and understanding for him than I. My wife I think has a deeper love for our 7 children that she bore. She is always encouraging me to spend time with them and get to know them. That is how I see Mary. I have done some analysis on reported Marian Apparitions. In one case I studied, the alleged apparition spoke of her son in various ways, 50 times per page of text. Herself only once or twice and in a subordinate way for what it's worth.