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Masks and Viruses
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
I agree for the most part. In a society the unvaccinated cause a problem (add to an already existing problem). Two things science has shown about the unvaccinated (insofar as affecting other people) are - they are more able to spread covid (although the vaccinated can also) and more apt in people groups to produce varients (although vaccines themselves can also contribute to varients).
That said, freedom entails risks. Questions we should ask is if it is worth manditory vaccinations to protect a people. With covid, given the risks involved, I do not believe it is worth sacrificing freedom. But to be honest, I feel the same away about seat-belts (for adults).
Freedom also entails responsibility. This is here preventative measures come in.
We are still looking at over 700,000 people getting covid (and as we have seen, people can get covid multiple times). So even if the death rate remains constant the numbers will continue to multiply (decreasing proportionally to a decrease in population or inversely to an increase in vaccinations).
Freedom and responsibility go hand in hand. This is what I am not seeing.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
If I may ask, are you provided the N95 by your employer?
I did a quick search, they cost about $6-8 a piece, in my area. I assume they are single use, so a family of four is looking at $25-30 a day for masks. $125-150 a week. $500-600 a month for masks.
Seems to be a pretty steep price, especially if people are young, healthy, already recovered from covid or, as children, have near immunity to this virus.
peace to you
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Because the vaccines don't stop "delta".
Anyone can read the same information I'm getting, and it's available on the U.S. CDC website.
People at my company are all back to wearing masks, vaccinated or not.
The reason is because of a reversal due to the new variants breaking through the current vaccines, Jon, not because of a fear of the unvaccinated.
People have communicated this to you on several occasions, yet there seems to be some dispute about your belief of the facts.
What makes you think that the primary reason that the CDC has reversed its decision to recommend everyone wear masks, is because of the threat of unvaccinated people?
As I said...but "unlikely" or not, they are getting sick, and they are spreading the virus.
That's official, and from the U.S. CDC.
Jon, when did you buy into this, "the unvaccinated are at fault" line?
The fact remains that fully vaccinated people can and do spread COVID-19 because of the variants that are emerging.
The unvaccinated are currently no more to blame than the vaccinated.
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Here is one from Mr. Conspiracy Planet.
More info at link.
MASKS DON'T WORK — THE HEALTHY AMERICAN™
"Wearing an N95 for an entire 12-hour shift had statistically significant negative effects on some physiologic measures and subjective symptoms. Over time, nurses’ CO2 levels became significantly elevated, from a statistical standpoint, compared with beginning-of-shift baseline measures; perceived exertion; perceived shortness of air; and complaints of headache, lightheadedness, and difficulty communicating also increased over time (Tables 3 and and4 ). CO2 levels increased from a baseline average of 32.4 at the beginning of the shift to 41.0 at the end of each shift. There were no changes in nurses’ blood pressure, O2 levels, perceived comfort, perceived thermal comfort, or complaints of visual difficulties compared with baseline levels." Source: Physiologic and other effects and compliance with long-term respirator use among medical intensive care unit nurses - Study "
Science Says Healthy People Should Not Wear Masks
Links to other websites with mask info and data:
20 Reasons Masks are unsafe click here
Much ado about Corona: click here
Face Masks do no prevent viruses click here
Face mask evidence click here
Masking: A Careful Review of the Evidence – AIER
More info at link.
MASKS DON'T WORK — THE HEALTHY AMERICAN™
"Wearing an N95 for an entire 12-hour shift had statistically significant negative effects on some physiologic measures and subjective symptoms. Over time, nurses’ CO2 levels became significantly elevated, from a statistical standpoint, compared with beginning-of-shift baseline measures; perceived exertion; perceived shortness of air; and complaints of headache, lightheadedness, and difficulty communicating also increased over time (Tables 3 and and4 ). CO2 levels increased from a baseline average of 32.4 at the beginning of the shift to 41.0 at the end of each shift. There were no changes in nurses’ blood pressure, O2 levels, perceived comfort, perceived thermal comfort, or complaints of visual difficulties compared with baseline levels." Source: Physiologic and other effects and compliance with long-term respirator use among medical intensive care unit nurses - Study "
Science Says Healthy People Should Not Wear Masks
- Masks reduce intake of oxygen, leading to carbon dioxide toxicity
- Germs are trapped near your mouth and nose, increasing risk of infection
- Wearing a mask causes you to touch your face more frequently
- There is no scientific evidence that supports healthy people wearing masks
- Masks obscure your facial features and impede normal social interaction
- Masks make it hard for hearing-impaired people to understand you
- Masks symbolize suppression of speech
Links to other websites with mask info and data:
20 Reasons Masks are unsafe click here
Much ado about Corona: click here
Face Masks do no prevent viruses click here
Face mask evidence click here
Masking: A Careful Review of the Evidence – AIER
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I see.
So people like me ( many of whom have had COVID-19 and built up a natural immunity against the original strain ) created this problem.
But the facts say different.
The CDC reversed its recommendations due to "delta" resulting in new infections amongst both vaccinated and unvaccinated people, and one of the case studies that caused them to reverse this decision was the Barnstable County, Massachusetts outbreak this past summer:
Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Infections, including COVID-19 ...
Out-takes...
" Findings from this investigation suggest that even jurisdictions without substantial or high COVID-19 transmission might consider expanding prevention strategies, including masking in indoor public settings regardless of vaccination status, given the potential risk of infection during attendance at large public gatherings that include travelers from many areas with differing levels of transmission."
" Among the 469 cases in Massachusetts residents, 346 (74%) occurred in persons who were fully vaccinated; of these, 301 (87%) were male, with a median age of 42 years. Vaccine products received by persons experiencing breakthrough infections were Pfizer-BioNTech (159; 46%), Moderna (131; 38%), and Janssen (56; 16%); among fully vaccinated persons in the Massachusetts general population, 56% had received Pfizer-BioNTech, 38% had received Moderna, and 7% had received Janssen vaccine products."
CDC revised guidelines:
COVID-19 Vaccination
" If you’ve been fully vaccinated:
- You can resume activities that you did prior to the pandemic.
- To reduce the risk of being infected with the Delta variant and possibly spreading it to others, wear a mask indoors in public if you are in an area of substantial or high transmission."
The bottom line, my friend, is that variants are emerging and circulating... and vaccination status ( with the current vaccines ) is very nearly irrelevant.
That is why my company went back to mandating that all of its employees wear surgical ( not N-95 ) masks....which any surgeon will tell you that they no not work to stop virus transmission.
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We are. I bought some a while back because my wife likes them (if you buy bulk you can get them for about $1.25 to $2 each). I'm at a DOE site, about 11,000 workers. I have seen very few actually use them (most of us use what we like....as long as it is 2 layers we can, and in a couple of months it will only be vaccinated workers there anyway).
The science says otherwise. The data showed the vacvine is effective in preventing Delta and MU (just not as effective, although Moderna seems very close).
Vaccinated Can Spread any form. The vacvibes are not even 100% effective (no vaccine we have is).
It's just degrees of safety we are taking about.
I do not see this as the fault of unvaccinated people. I see thus as the fault of politicians who politicized the virus and vaccine. Many still view the vaccines as "Trump's vaccines" and do not trust them because he says they are safe. Others see Biden pushing vaccinations and do not trust it for that reason. Each side wants to end up using the pandemic for political gain.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
The CDC says otherwise.
But just because they are the CDC, does not mean that I believe everything that they tell me, either.
For example, wearing surgical masks to help prevent the spread of a virus?
Jon, you were Army, I was Navy...and we both know that a trip of cloth isn't going to stop biological contaminants.
Tell that to the many people at my workplace who have contracted COVID-19 this past summer, most of whom were vaccinated.
I don't agree with either side.
I see the technology of the current vaccines as being both a short-term and a long-term danger to public health.
That said, I've no more to add,
as it seems that we are in disagreement not only on the science, but on the facts.
May God bless you.
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No. Politicians created the problem. Too much misinformation (like if you had covid you don't need to be vaccinated because you have antibodies....yet many have had covid multiple times).
As it stands vacvines are over 70% effective at preventing known varients. Moderna proved over 80%. Will this change? Maybe. But the vacvine may also (like the flu vaccine).
Then again, the vaccines may remain effective (even the MU varient isn't new.....it was first found in January).
No. Science says otherwise. The CDC, FDA, AMA, etc. just echos the science (the studies).
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree, and that 97+% survival rate ( see numbers below, with sources ) across the board only makes spending that amount of money each month very nearly a waste, for the vast majority of people and in my opinion.
I'll continue to trust the Lord, as I've not come down with CoVID yet...
and I've been surrounded by it at work.
COVID Live Update: 233,494,006 Cases and 4,777,372 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer
233,493,100 confirmed and tested cases worldwide as of the writing of this post, with 4,777,361 deaths.
Survival rate among verified cases ( not including asymptomatic and not tested cases ), 97.954%
That's the CFR, or case fatality rate.
That number jumps to a potential estimated 99.5%, give or take, when factoring in asymptomatic / never tested cases, which is what is called "Infection Fatality Rate."
Mortality Risk of COVID-19 - Statistics and Research
Coronavirus Death Rate (COVID-19) - Worldometer
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Quit worrying about us, the unvaxed.
If you were really worried about us, you wouldn't get vaxed and become a high viral load super spreader. The vaxed are the super spreaders, yet y'all act like you are not the problem. The vaxed are the spreaders.
The vax is not working. Just open everything up, ban the masks, and we will see who survives this SCAMdemic.
I saw a immunologist on TV today. He took vax when it first came out. He said he no longer recommends it. He said taking the vax would be like taking three doses of the flu shot from two years ago, and hoping it worked. He said he will not recommend it till vax is updated.
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As contrasted with the paragons of truth-telling at
- Breitbart
- Veritas Project
- The Gateway Pundit
- etc.?
I'm not worried about the unvaxed adults. But I am concerned about our economy and the effect the unvaxed will have on society. Too many people are dying around here.
And I think you know the varients are coming from unvaccinated populations.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Jon, one more reply, to share a few more facts with you.
My opinion is that they are not.
"Delta" variant emerged first in India during December, 2020:
What You Need to Know About the Delta Variant | Froedtert & the Medical College of Wisconsin
The first vaccines were released to public in late November of 2020, but had little to no chance of circulating to prevent anything.
They began to be administered in the U.S. in December:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/12/14/first-covid-vaccines-new-york/
and did not begin in India until January:
India starts world's largest COVID-19 vaccination drive
So, while I agree with you that variants were ( not necessarily are ) emerging among unvaccinated people, the timing of the vaccine had no bearing on the emergence of the current one now infecting people in the United States...as no vaccine was widely available until later.
If you want to tie the existence of variants to unvaccinated people ( instead of to people who have been exposed to, and built up a resistance to, the original virus ), then that is your prerogative.
Again, I find that I must disagree.
Unvaccinated people are not responsible for variants that are making the vaccinated sick.
Those developed completely independent of vaccination status.
Science will tell you that they believe that viruses mutate to overcome inherent or "learned" immunity, vaccinated or otherwise.
Good evening to you.
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The information is what I have also read.
Unvaccinated People Are Most at Risk
Anyone who has not recently recovered from COVID-19 or been fully vaccinated is more at risk for developing infection from the delta variant...
COVID Vaccines Are Effective Against the Delta Variant
Getting vaccinated is the best way to protect yourself and your loved ones from COVID-19. According to the CDC, all three COVID vaccines offer protection from the delta variant.
I was speaking of the MU (which was discovered in January 2021....Columbia if I recall..
Obviously these did not originate with the vaccinated.
Unvaccinated people don't only risk their own health: Their bodies become 'variant factories'
Unvaccinated People Are Fueling Coronavirus Variants
How do vaccinated people spread Delta? What the science says
What do we know about SARS-CoV-2 variants? - UChicago Medicine
How the unvaccinated threaten the vaccinated for COVID-19: A Darwinian perspective
‘The Biggest Threat': COVID Variants Spread Among the Unvaccinated
COVID-19: Are we creating ideal conditions for new variants?
Among the unvaccinated, Delta variant more than doubles risk of hospitalization
The virologist I watched today said the variants are the sole result of vaccinating into a pandemic. He pointed out that we have never in the history of mankind launched mass vaccination in the middle of a pandemic. The variants will usually first be discovered in unvaxed, but mutated in the bodies of the vaxed. The virus has no need to mutate in a person who has not either been vaccinated or previously infected. He is not antivax. He is use the right vax in only the high risk.
India handled Covid the right way. The world should take notice. It's the leftists who want to shut our economy down. Just open up and run. We will be fine.