Mat 19:17 and the Word "good"

[gb93433]

Before Creation there was God and the Bible says "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." - 1 Jn. 1:5 Hence, before creation there was no "darkness at all."

Gen. 1:3231 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Hence, no spiritual darkness before creation and still no spiritual darkness after creation before the seventh day, unless you think God can look on spiritual darkness within his creation and pronounce "it was very good"?

You did not answer the question I asked, "I see that God created man with the ability to choose evil or good. It is convenient to suggest that it came from Satan. Was not Satan a created being who made a choice? Where did that choice come from."

Evil got there somehow. What is its origin.

Just because evil is present does not make one or something evil. I have the ability to choose evil or good and that ability does not make me evil or good. Both choices are present. That is much the same thing I see that God did in giving us choices. However those choices came from somewhere. Satan chose and where did his choices come from?

The problem I see is that our mindset compartmentalizes ideas and things whereas the Jews did not do that.

 

[DHK]

You did not answer the question I asked, "I see that God created man with the ability to choose evil or good. It is convenient to suggest that it came from Satan. Was not Satan a created being who made a choice? Where did that choice come from."

Evil got there somehow. What is its origin.

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
--Up to this point they only knew good. They did not know evil.

Genesis 3:6-7 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
--Now they knew evil. They experienced it in their rebellion against God. Their consciences told them and they felt guilty. They tried to cover that guilt but were unsuccessful.

After God metes out his judgement and the curse falls upon the earth, the serpent, and Adam and Eve, and consequently the entire human race, then God makes an atonement for their sin:

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
--Forgiveness comes only through shed blood. And thus they were restored to fellowship with God.

 

[The Biblicist]

You did not answer the question I asked, "I see that God created man with the ability to choose evil or good. It is convenient to suggest that it came from Satan. Was not Satan a created being who made a choice? Where did that choice come from."

Evil got there somehow. What is its origin.

Just because evil is present does not make one or something evil. I have the ability to choose evil or good and that ability does not make me evil or good. Both choices are present. That is much the same thing I see that God did in giving us choices. However those choices came from somewhere. Satan chose and where did his choices come from?

The problem I see is that our mindset compartmentalizes ideas and things whereas the Jews did not do that.

It came from free will:wavey:

 

[gb93433]

It came from free will:wavey:

Where did free will come from?

 

[gb93433]

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
--Up to this point they only knew good. They did not know evil.

That verse seems to indicate otherwise. Even if they did not know evil does not mean it was not present. When I was a kid I never experienced things I did as an adult because I did not see them but they were present.

Genesis 3:6-7

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
--Now they knew evil. They experienced it in their rebellion against God. Their consciences told them and they felt guilty. They tried to cover that guilt but were unsuccessful.

Whether they knew evil or not it still existed. The blind man not experience certain colors as we do but that does not mean those colors do not exist.

Again I failed to see where you answered the questions I asked.

You did not answer the question I asked, "I see that God created man with the ability to choose evil or good. It is convenient to suggest that it came from Satan. Was not Satan a created being who made a choice? Where did that choice come from?"

"Evil got there somehow. What is its origin?"

 

[The Biblicist]

Where did free will come from?

God did not sin in creating free will simply because with the creation of free will came also the responsibility to chooose correctly. Hence, God created a responsible free agent. In Advance God revealed what was right and what was wrong and so when man chose to do wrong he did so in full disclosure. It was not until he sinned by choosing wrong did he EXPERIENCE right and wrong and that is what the term "knowledge" of good and evil refers to. However, he knew theoretically good from evil before he sinned.

 

[gb93433]

God did not sin in creating free will simply because with the creation of free will came also the responsibility to chooose correctly. Hence, God created a responsible free agent. In Advance God revealed what was right and what was wrong and so when man chose to do wrong he did so in full disclosure. It was not until he sinned by choosing wrong did he EXPERIENCE right and wrong and that is what the term "knowledge" of good and evil refers to. However, he knew theoretically good from evil before he sinned.

So an evil choice was present. Where did evil come from. Satan had a choice. Where did the evil choice come from? Was it not present at the time?

I am not talking about an experience but about the origin of evil itself.

 

[DHK]

Where did free will come from?

We are created in the image and likeness of God. That includes free will, an attribute that animals do not have. They don't have the power to reason things out as we do.
Since God is God he cannot sin. It is impossible for God to sin.
But man is not perfect. God gave man, and initially the angels a free will--a test for their obedience to Him. One third of the angels failed. Adam and Eve failed, out of their own free will. Before that time they had not known evil. They knew evil by their choice to disobey God, to rebel against Him. Had they obeyed we assume that they would have eaten of the fruit of the tree of life and acquired immortality.

 

[DHK]

But this thread has been derailed. It has nothing to do with Mat.19:17. Another thread should be started on this topic, and we should get back to the OP.

 

[The Biblicist]

So an evil choice was present. Where did evil come from. Satan had a choice. Where did the evil choice come from? Was it not present at the time?

I am not talking about an experience but about the origin of evil itself.

You are confusing the OPTION to do evil with evil. Evil is defined by God as disobedience to His will - sin is the transgression of His law. His law said you shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil. They were free to disobey but that disobedience would BE EVIL.

 

[gb93433]

You are confusing the OPTION to do evil with evil. Evil is defined by God as disobedience to His will - sin is the transgression of His law. His law said you shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil. They were free to disobey but that disobedience would BE EVIL.

Can one make a choice from something that does not exist?

 

[The Biblicist]

Can one make a choice from something that does not exist?

Yes! sin had no existence in the world (Rom. 5:12) until Adam violated God's Law and then the "day" in which he violated God's law sin entered the world and death by sin.

 

[gb93433]

Yes! sin had no existence in the world (Rom. 5:12) until Adam violated God's Law and then the "day" in which he violated God's law sin entered the world and death by sin.

Where did that choice to sin come from? Nothing? How can someone possibly make a choice from something that is not present? Man is not creator. He crested nothing, nor invented anything, nor made anything from nothing. Did it just somehow show up apart from God and man? Man is finite. Everything present has always been.

 

[The Biblicist]

Where did that choice to sin come from? Nothing? How can someone possibly make a choice from something that is not present? Man is not creator. He crested nothing, nor invented anything, nor made anything from nothing. Did it just somehow show up apart from God and man? Man is finite. Everything present has always been.

Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin came into existence into this world by violating God's revealed law.

Before the law was violated no sin existed. When the law was violated sin came into existence.

God did not violate His law - Adam did.

No sin existed when God's law was revealed because His law was not violated. Sin existed WHEN God's law was violated.

Just that simple. If you don't have some axe to grind then you will accept the simplicity of it as revealed by Romans 5:12. If you have an axe to grind then no Biblical evidence will suit you.

 

[gb93433]

Yes! sin had no existence in the world (Rom. 5:12) until Adam violated God's Law and then the "day" in which he violated God's law sin entered the world and death by sin.

Before that time where was evil?

 

[gb93433]

No sin existed when God's law was revealed because His law was not violated. Sin existed WHEN God's law was violated.

I would say that sin became known when God's law was violated. Before that time where was evil? So are you saying that sin was the result of a choice that man made which originated from nothing?

 

[DHK]

I would say that sin became known when God's law was violated. Before that time where was evil? So are you saying that sin was the result of a choice that man made which originated from nothing?

Is that a difficult concept to comprehend?
Before that time, the Bible explicitly says that Adam had not know evil.

 

[The Biblicist]

Before that time where was evil?

In him there is no darkness at all - 1 Jn.
On the sixth day EVERYTHING He made was good - Gen. 1
No sin entered heaven until sin was "found" in Satan
No sin entered earth until "by one man" broke God's law

Evil does not exist until sin exists and sin does not exist until God's law is violated and God's will is not violated until someone chooses to violate it. hence, evil was brought into creation by created beings choosing to violate God's law.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

and then.......everything you just said has absolutely no bearing on any of us, sin being inherited due to no fault of our own. So much for your concept of sin or freewill having anything to do with us. Sin is nothing more than a necessitated trait of being born human, and freewill non existent. And then to think you are not even consistent there, for you make Christ's nature something other than human for He was not born you say as we are, with our nature, as Scripture states He was.

 

[DHK]

and then.......everything you just said has absolutely no bearing on any of us, sin being inherited due to no fault of our own. So much for your concept of sin or freewill having anything to do with us. Sin is nothing more than a necessitated trait of being born human, and freewill non existent. And then to think you are not even consistent there, for you make Christ's nature something other than human for He was not born you say as we are, with our nature, as Scripture states He was.

He was made in the likeness of man born with a human nature, being perfect man without a sin nature, but having a human nature. His sin nature was nullified by the virgin birth.