Matt 10:28 does God really "destroy BOTH" Body AND soul in fiery hell??

[Hope of Glory]

BR, you have shown where a whole bunch of people are thrown into the lake of fire.

That's not a point of contention.

However, you have not shown the direct correlation between gehenna and the lake of fire, neither have you shown where everyone is tossed in (or burned, since you have not shown they're the same) at the same time.

 

[DHK]

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My argument is that the FIRST death only kills the body the SECOND death by contrast "destroys BOTH body AND SOUL" Matt 10:27-28.

Your argument holds no water. It has never held any water. It is completely frivilous, and entirely made up without any foundation whatsoever. Look at the verse again for the umpteenth time:

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The key verb to concentrate on here is "is able," which you conveniently ignore.
God is able to turn Bob Ryan into a frog, but only by the grace of God he hasn't. He is able to make you a four headed monster, a mythical troll, or perhaps the unicorn of Greek mythology. But he hasn't. God is able to do all things, but by his will and by his mercy and grace he has not chosen to exercise those powers. The verse clearly emphasizes his power. He is able, it says. It does not say he will!

It only refers to his ability to do so--his power--that he is able. Fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. Learn to read more carefully and then not to build a doctrine around two words that Jesus diddn't even say. Your entire doctrine crumbles on two words that Jesus never said. He never said that he would destroy (or as you wrongly interpret "annihilate.") He said he is able. Those two statements are miles apart.
He is able to change you into a frog, and predestinate that you will be saved, but only if you are sitting on a lily pad at the right time in the right place when a beautiful Muslim princess walks by. And only if she chooses by her own free will to kiss you will you then again be Bob Ryan as a human. God is able to arrange those circumstances according to his foreknowledge before the foundation of the world, and because he knows you are predestinated to be in such a position (according to some). Whether to be a frog or not to be a frog? Oh to be in the fate of a Muslim princess Bob, how does it feel. God has that ability. Are you not glad that he doesn't exercise his ability to do those things that are not convenient to him to do so., or are not in his will to do so.
It never says in Mat.20:28, that he will destroy or annihilate even one soul. In fact it says elsewhere that God is not willing that even one soul should perish but that all should come to repentance. I believe you have a contradiction.

 

[Hope of Glory]

In Matthew 10:28, the word "destroy" is apollumi. When the woman "lost" (apollumi) the piece of silver, she searched until she found it. It did not disappear. Same with the "lost" (apollumi) sheep, etc.

Is there an example in the Scriptures in which something was lost (apollumi) that disappeared? (I don't mean the supposition that the soul disappears, direct Scriputeres.) There may be, but I'm not aware of any.

BTW, did you know the verb "believe" is not found in the Revelation?

 

[Andre]

Sorry - double post problem

 

[Andre]

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The key verb to concentrate on here is "is able," which you conveniently ignore.
God is able to turn Bob Ryan into a frog, but only by the grace of God he hasn't. He is able to make you a four headed monster, a mythical troll, or perhaps the unicorn of Greek mythology. But he hasn't. God is able to do all things, but by his will and by his mercy and grace he has not chosen to exercise those powers. The verse clearly emphasizes his power. He is able, it says. It does not say he will!

It only refers to his ability to do so--his power--that he is able. Fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.

It is clear that God will indeed destroy bodies and souls in Hell. The reason lies in the implications of the admonition to "fear". The whole warning makes no sense unless God will indeed carry out this threat.

Let's say that, as a child, I am warned to fear my father who "is able to spank me". There is a rather obvious implication that he will indeed spank if I do not behave properly. There is no need to fear a father who "can but won't spank", so for the warning to make any sense at all, I must see my father as one who "can and will spank, if I do not behave".

Same thing with the Matthew text - there is no reason to fear a God who one believes can but won't cast one into hell.

 

[Andre]

I forgot something important in my previous post. One could argue that it is indeed senible to fear an agent who can do something without believing that he will do it.

I can fear my boss because he is able to reduce my salary to 10,000 and I need believe that he will do it under any circumstance. I can fear that he will do something else, because of this general power to do things like reducing my salary to 10,000.

However, in the specific context of Matt 10:28 it is clear, from the "fear not them which kill the body" clause that precedes the "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" clause, that the issue here is indeed the ability of God to destroy. So one cannot argue that we are being warned that God will do something else, because of an ability on His part to destroy body and soul in hell.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre: I forgot something important in my previous post. One could argue that it is indeed senible to fear an agent who can do something without believing that he will do it.

HP: That is indeed true as DHK very aptly pointed out.

Again, it is pure unsupported conjecture to conclude that ‘to destroy’ is ‘to annihilate.’ It is pure unsupported conjecture to believe that to ‘reduce to ashes’ is ‘to annihilate.’

Scripture is replete with clear testimony that the soul will not be annihilated, but will live on in eternity in one of two states; in heaven with the Lord, or in hell prepared for the devil and his angels, also referred to as the lake of fire where their worm dieth not, the fire is not quenched, and there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Scripture tells us plainly that EVERY man will stand before Him in judgment. That includes all those destroyed in S&G as well as those that have died by any other means. There is absolutely no Scripture that indicates in any way that any soul has been or ever will be annihilated.

 

[BobRyan]

It is clear that God will indeed destroy bodies and souls in Hell. The reason lies in the implications of the admonition to "fear". The whole warning makes no sense unless God will indeed carry out this threat.

Very true. Trying to "dance around the text" to the point of an argument that says in effect " God is saying "Fear Him who can eat you and your family alive then ressurect you each morning and eat you again -- of course not that He ever WOULD do such a thing but just thinking about the fact that HE COULD if He wanted to so so fear him" - is total nonsense.

ESPECIALY is it totally without merit when you consider that DHK's view is that God does NOT DESTROY rather He SUSTAINS them in a functional immortal state - eternal life where He INFINITELY TORMENTS both body and soul forever.:BangHead:

As Both DHK and HP have stated this "DESTROY both body and soul" idea of scripture is far LESS than what their man-made tradition speculates by way of "INFINITE TORTURE INSTEAD of destruction". This is Christ (in their argument) INVENTING a far LESSer scenario and saying that His disciples should fear God who could do far LESS than WHAT HE REALLY WILL do if you go to fiery hell.

Clearly that argument is total nonsense! It is a desperate option to get around exegeting the text - easily debunked.

Andre said
I can fear my boss because he is able to reduce my salary to 10,000 and I need believe that he will do it under any circumstance. I can fear that he will do something else, because of this general power to do things like reducing my salary to 10,000.

Indeed it is like saying "Fear your boss who if he finds that you are not sufficiently skilled to perform your job will order less exciting company lunches" when in fact "he will fire you".:laugh:


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Scripture is replete with clear testimony that the soul will not be annihilated, but will live on in eternity in one of two states; in heaven with the Lord, or in hell
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=993716&postcount=127

Ezek 18:4 "the Soul that sins IT SHALL DIE"
Matt 10:28 God is the one who "Destroys BOTH body AND SOUL in fiery hell"

-- or --

Gen 3:4 "you shall NOT surely die" you shall live on in eternity!

 

[BobRyan]

In Matthew 10:28, the word "destroy" is apollumi. When the woman "lost" (apollumi) the piece of silver, she searched until she found it. It did not disappear. Same with the "lost" (apollumi) sheep, etc.

Ahh the many twists and turns you take.

Matt 10:28 “destroy both BODY AND SOUL” in fiery hell –

Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destory - Apollumi )


Apollumi – “Destroy “

1. to destroy
   1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
   2. render useless
   3. to kill
   4. to declare that one must be put to death
   5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
   6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2. to destroy
   1. to lose

NAS (93) - bring, 1; destroy, 17; destroyed, 9; dying, 1; end, 1; killed, 1; lose, 10; loses, 7; lost, 14; much, 1; passed away, 1; perish, 14; perishable, 1; perished, 4; perishes, 1; perishing, 6; put to death, 1; ruined, 3;

Obviously we see no "eternal destroying" going on here rather we see END of LIFE – REAL death not “living on in an unrepentant state”

Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destory - Apollumi )


Matt 2:13
13Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him."

Matt 12
14But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

Obviously we see no "eternal destroying" going on here in Matthew's use of the term in the cases above..

Mark 3:6
The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

John 10:10
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.



Not only is the term used as such by the Gospel writers - but the meaning "to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin " fits perfectly with the catastrophic term used in 2Peter 2:6 "Destroy by reducing them to Ashes"
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destory - Apollumi )

 

[BobRyan]

God is able to turn Bob Ryan into a frog, but only by the grace of God he hasn't. He is able to make you a four headed monster, a mythical troll, or perhaps the unicorn of Greek mythology. But he hasn't. God is able to do all things, but by his will and by his mercy and grace he has not chosen to exercise those powers.

The verse DOES NOT argue that point that God is ABLE to turn you into a frog. Though the fact that you have to dance around the text to that extent is "instructive" to the objective reader.

But what is incredibly amazing is that you believe God "WILL infinitely torture you INSTEAD of destroying both body and soul in fiery hell".

If the intent as you say is simply to conjur up "fear" with a big scary monster story - no matter how unlikely the threat - then using your
"INFINITE TORTURE INSTEAD of destorying BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" idea would have been FAR MORE scary than "DESTROY both body and soul" even by your OWN confession sir.

Just believing and accepting the text of Matt 10:28 for what it says in this case - makes far more sense.

In view of that glaringly obvious fact - Your argument fails.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

#1. In God's Word we are shown only TWO examples where God speaks of sending fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroying the wicked. One is in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah - and the other is in Rev 20 the "second death" fiery judgment of the wicked. God tells us in Jude 7, 2Peter 2 and the Gospel of Luke to pay attention to that fact and link the two together.

Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destory - Apollumi )

Those who prefer the man-made doctrine of "infinite torture INSTEAD of destroying BOTH body and soul in fiery hell" tell us to just ignore this inconvenient fact of scripture.

#2. The Bible says GOD is to be feared as the one who goes beyond the FIRST death state of "destroy the body but not the soul" tot he SECOND death state of "destroying BOTH body AND soul in FIERY HELL' (telling us WHAT He will do and WHEN/WHERE He will do it) - and those who deny this but cling instead to "Infinite torture" of loved ones suffering the second death INSTEAD of "destroying BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" want us to disbelieve the reality of Matt 10:28 as well.

Making the clear and obvious choice then - is left as an exercise for the reader.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destory - Apollumi )

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

Question: Can the objective unbiased reader "tell" in this case that the Apollumi of Luke 17 is sufficient to be defined in 2Peter 2 as that which "destroys by reducing them to ashes"??

Is this point REALLY as hard to understand as DHK and HP have been making it out to be??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Hope of Glory]

Yet, we see Sodom in a future judgment, don't we?

 

[BobRyan]

Yet, we see Sodom in a future judgment, don't we?

I have consistently been making the case that in this life we suffer the "first death". In Matt 10:28 that is the one where the body is destroyed but not the soul.

In the second death BOTH body AND soul are destroyed.

The point scripture makes is that in the first-death (body destroyed) instance Sodom and Gomorrah are DESTROYED by the same "everlasting fire" that all the wicked will be subjected to in the SECOND death (BOTH body AND soul DESTROYED).

The point is that "destroy" in that case is NOT the "eternal life" that people keep imagining. It is "DESTROY by reducing them to ashes" kind of "DESTROY". The complete destruction that happens to the body in the FIRST death -- happens to BOTH body AND soul in the SECOND.

The resurrection of the wicked - raising them physically - requires the CREATOR to MAKE bodies for them so that they can live and be judged and be destroyed at the 2nd death. Without that - "the dust would simply remain dust" as concerns the physical dust of their bodies.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The verse DOES NOT argue that point that God is ABLE to turn you into a frog. Though the fact that you have to dance around the text to that extent is "instructive" to the objective reader.

But what is incredibly amazing is that you believe God "WILL infinitely torture you INSTEAD of destroying both body and soul in fiery hell".

If the intent as you say is simply to conjur up "fear" with a big scary monster story - no matter how unlikely the threat - then using your
"INFINITE TORTURE INSTEAD of destorying BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" idea would have been FAR MORE scary than "DESTROY both body and soul" even by your OWN confession sir.

Just believing and accepting the text of Matt 10:28 for what it says in this case - makes far more sense.

God is omnipotent, Bob, and is able to do as he pleases. To emphasize my point in perhaps a more credible way to you consider:

When Peter cut off the ear of Malchus, Christ said put up your sword...Know ye now that I am able to call 12 legions of angels from my Father.
He could have called 72 thousand angels (or more) to defend him from going to the cross. He was able, but he didn't. He went willingly to the cross instead to die for you and me.

He prayed in the garden: Take this cup from me Lord; nevertheless let your will be done not mine.
The meaning of the prayer was that God was able to prevent Christ from going through the sufferings of the cross. He was able to take that cup of the suffering of the cross away from Christ. But Christ submitted to the will of the Father instead.

In the same vein, God didn't have to send his son to die for the sins of mankind. He "was able" to cast them all to Hell to burn forever in the Lake of Fire and be perfectly just in doing so. He is the potter and we are the clay. It is only by his love and mercy that we live today. Yes he is able to destroy us: both body and soul, banish us to eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, but out of mercy he doesn't. But he is able. He is the potter; we are the clay. God is able.

Our sin has offended an infinite God, for which he had to pay an infinite price, the price of his shed blood. It was God's blood.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

God purchased us with his own blood. God's blood is infinite. Our sin had infinite consequences. By receiving Christ and his sacrifice he gives us eternal life. On the other hand, in his perfect justice, if we refuse that payment for our sins, he rewards that one with eternal punishment--eternal death or separation from God for all eternity. It can be no other way. For he is a just God. If there is eternal life there must be an eternal death, and both must be everlasting. Annihilation does not fit into the justice of God.

And so the Word of God says:
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There is only one meaning for that verse and it is not annihilation.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--The same fate awaits those described in verse 10.

 

[Hope of Glory]

In the second death BOTH body AND soul are destroyed.

And the spirit?

 

[DHK]

I have consistently been making the case that in this life we suffer the "first death". In Matt 10:28 that is the one where the body is destroyed but not the soul.

That can only be determined by the context, for the terms soul and spirit are often used interchangeably in the NT. Therefore your argument falls apart very quickly.

In the second death BOTH body AND soul are destroyed.

Chapter and verse please. There is no Biblical evidence of this whatsoever, only your own conjecture and wilfull thinking if not just pure imagination. What does the Bible really say about the second death:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--tormented day and night forever and ever. That doesn't speak of annihilation does it? It directly contradicts what you just said. It shows your unbelief in the Bible. Why don't you believe in the Scriptures Bob?

The point scripture makes is that in the first-death (body destroyed) instance Sodom and Gomorrah are DESTROYED by the same "everlasting fire" that all the wicked will be subjected to in the SECOND death (BOTH body AND soul DESTROYED).

The point was made on the first page that you are taking on 2Pet.2:6 out of its context. I advised you in another post since that not to keep on doing that. I can only advise you again with this warning:

2 Peter 3:16 ...they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
--You wrest the Scriptures to your own destruction. That is a serious warning Bob. You take a historical event such as the Flood or the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and make it into a heretical doctrine teaching the annhilation of the wicked spirits, which it does not even speak about. What heresy! What perversion of God's Holy Word!

The point is that "destroy" in that case is NOT the "eternal life" that people keep imagining. It is "DESTROY by reducing them to ashes" kind of "DESTROY". The complete destruction that happens to the body in the FIRST death -- happens to BOTH body AND soul in the SECOND.

Show me from Genesis 19 where souls are reduced to ashes. Show me from Genesis 19 where spirits are reduced to ashes. I hate to be so blunt about this Bob. But if you can't do it then please shut-up about it. The bodies, and only the bodies were burned to ashes. It says nothing about souls or spirits.

The resurrection of the wicked - raising them physically - requires the CREATOR to MAKE bodies for them so that they can live and be judged and be destroyed at the 2nd death. Without that - "the dust would simply remain dust" as concerns the physical dust of their bodies.

Is Christ a liar then. The resurrection, no matter in what context it is used, always refers to a physical resurrection. It always refers to the resurrection of the body. The thought of the resurrection of a spirit (a spiritual resurrection) is ludicrous. That is no resurrection at all. All spirits rise. That concept doesn't make sense. The resurrection always refers to the body.
But Jesus spoke of two resurrections.
He spoke of a resurrection of the just and a resurrection of the unjust. They are two separate resurrections. The resurrection of the unjust (that second resurrection, must of a necessity, include a body.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The resurrection of life; and the resurrection of damnation; as it is put here--two resurrections. Which one will you be in? At which time will you stand before God? At the JSOC, or at the GWT? These are two judgements; the two resurrections that are referred to, that are also referred to in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 20:5-6 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Which resurrection will you have a part in? The one that death has no power over? Or the one where death and hell is cast into the Lake of Fire? There are only two. I know where I will stand. I already have that assurance. Do you?

 

[Hope of Glory]

That can only be determined by the context, for the terms soul and spirit are often used interchangeably in the NT. Therefore your argument falls apart very quickly.

Men use the two interchangeably.

Scriptures do not.

In both Hebrew and Greek, the word for "spirit" can mean 4 different things.

"Soul" means only one thing and that's "life".

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I agree with you that it is forever, however, Revelation 20:10 only says that those three will be tormented forever, which implies that the others will be there forever.

Revelation 14:11 says their smoke shall ascend forever.

You take a historical event such as the Flood or the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and make it into a heretical doctrine teaching the annhilation of the wicked spirits, which it does not even speak about.

In his defense, those historical events were given to us for types.

However, S&G were destroyed physically, but we are told they will have a future judgment, and they will not escape it.

He spoke of a resurrection of the just and a resurrection of the unjust. They are two separate resurrections. The resurrection of the unjust (that second resurrection, must of a necessity, include a body.

As an aside, just or unjust is based on works.

Do you think that our works play into whether or not we are saved forever and ever? (I think BR does, so this is not directed at him, although if I am mistaken about his beliefs, I hope he speaks up.)

The resurrection of life; and the resurrection of damnation; as it is put here--two resurrections.

What is the resurrection of life?

What is damnation?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HOG: Men use the two interchangeably.

Scriptures do not.

In both Hebrew and Greek, the word for "spirit" can mean 4 different things.

"Soul" means only one thing and that's "life".

HP: I can remember an old cartoon in which an old floppy eared dog had his ear laying on the ground, listening for some people approaching far away that they could not see. He proceeded to give a play by play to another dog close by. As he lay with his head and ear to the ground he begun to describe the individual that he could not see. His description went like something like this “ Six feet tall, 235 lbs, ………hole in the left sole..” At that the other dog exclaimed, “Now how do YOU know that?!!”

Let me ask you “How do YOU know that?” Scripture is a book written by men in the vernacular of their day, inspired by the Holy Spirit. What gives you the right to insert your private narrow definitions to the words soul and spirit?