Matt 10:28 does God really "destroy BOTH" Body AND soul in fiery hell??

[DHK]

You are right. My argument in respect to Matt 10:28 is indeed based on this one statement - that we know that "killing" a body renders that body entirely non-functional and, sooner or later, such a killed body returns to dust. Again, I fully admit that my argument rests on the assertion that killing a body, whatever it may mean in the actual details, certainly precludes the possiblity of that body existing forever in some functional state (which is what "killing" would have to mean for the "eternal torment" argument to survive the effects of Matt 10:28).

Let the readers decide for themselves if "killing" a body can result in a state where that body is not ultimately reduced to dust....

Jesus died, was buried, and the third day rose again.
I ask you again: Was his body entirely non functional such that it returned to dust?
Does it now function in an eternal state? yes or no?
Does this now defeat your argument of definining such words as destoy, death, and kill? Your definitions do not work.

 

[Andre]

Jesus died, was buried, and the third day rose again.
I ask you again: Was his body entirely non functional such that it returned to dust?
Does it now function in an eternal state? yes or no?
Does this now defeat your argument of definining such words as destoy, death, and kill? Your definitions do not work.

Jesus died and was resurrected and I believe his body is indeed functional now. To be more clear, I will add the following qualification to my definition of what it means to "kill" a body: God has the power to reverse the results of such "killing". With this qualification, I submit that the argument stands.

The act of "killing" renders the body totally non-functional. The fact that Jesus' body did not return to dust is not relevant to the argument. What is relevant is the fact that killing does a certain thing to a body - it renders it into a state where it is non-functional. This is a state which cannot reasonably be seen as a "perpetually functional" state. That is what is important to the argument.

The fact that Jesus was later resurrected is a rabbit trail to my argument. Here is proof: Let's say that I kill "Fred". Luckily for Fred, someone has the technology to repair Fred's injuries and reverse the decay. He has been "brought back to life". Does this change the fact that the act of killing Fred rendered him non-functional and started him down the path to dust?: Of course not.

You seem to be arguing that since Jesus was resurrected, I cannot claim that to "kill" a body causes that body to become non-functional and begin the process of decaying. After all, Jesus's body was fully restored.

However, it was restored by a separate act. This does not change the fact that "killing" a body renders it non-functional and initiates decay. And this is all that needs to be established in order to get the needed premise for the rest of the argument.

 

[DHK]

You seem to be arguing that since Jesus was resurrected, I cannot claim that to "kill" a body causes that body to become non-functional and begin the process of decaying. After all, Jesus's body was fully restored.

Jesus was resurrected. He appered to his disciples in bodily form. He ate with them. Were you the one that defined soul as "life?" Or don't you believe in the soul or spirit at all. I think I read something to that effect in one of your posts.
If the soul is but life, and there is no spirit--that is, if man is but dualistic (something you did claim was a belief of man), then what happened to Jesus when he appeared to his disciples. His life was in him. His eternal spirit also was in him. He is an eternal spirit now clothed with an eternal body which did not exist before the virgin birth.
This will happen to each one of us who puts their trust in Christ. We have a soul, and we have a spirit. The spirit will live on forever in spite of what happes to the body. The spirit will live on forever. At our resurrection we will receive (like Jesus) an new and glorified body. We also will live on forever. We, in that sense will be immortal. We are immortal beings.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[BobRyan]

It is going to be pretty hard to argue that Jesus - the "God-man" is not immortal. But your attempt to equivocate between God himself and what the Bible calls "mortal man" just to save your man-made tradition is strikingly similar to the attempt already stated in Gen 3 "you shall become like God".



Ps 22
29</SPAN>All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.


By contrast Christ said that "He has life IN Himself just as the Father has life IN Himself". He had the power to lay down His life AND to take it up again. - Unlike "Mortal Man"

No thought activity
Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity


Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

In Acts 2 Peter contrasts the God-man Jesus Christ's death with MORTAL MAN (David in this case)

Acts 2
25 ""For David says of Him, " I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
26 "THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28 "YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
29 "" Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 ""And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.

And of course - in Matt 22 Christ Himself affirms "God is NOT the God of the Dead"!!

 

[BobRyan]

Question: WHY does Christ affirm in Matt 22 that "God is NOT the God of the Dead"??


Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

Praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 [b]but as for us, we will bless[/b] the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!
Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

No memory of God
Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

No thought activity
Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity


Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus died, was buried, and the third day rose again.
I ask you again: Was his body entirely non functional such that it returned to dust?
Does it now function in an eternal state? yes or no?
Does this now defeat your argument of definining such words as destoy, death, and kill? Your definitions do not work.

#1. Christ is speaking in Matt 10:28 NOT Andre - you keep accusing Andre AS IF HE was the author of Matt 10:28 or inspiration for it! He is not. Your argument is with scripture not Andre!


Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b][/quote]

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, [b]do not be afraid of those who kill the body[/b] and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/b]; yes, I tell you, fear Him!




#2. The logic is you are using above is totally flawed as we just saw when we compared the death of David to Christ, and compared the sayings of the God-man jesus Christ about His own divine ability to sustain His life in death.

You have apparently equivocated once too many times.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

And of course - in Matt 22 Christ Himself affirms "God is NOT the God of the Dead"!!

That is absolutely right, and that argument alone defeats soul sleep. God is the God of the living. The God of Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, etc. All these OT saints, as well as all the believers in Christ since that time are all alive with Christ in Heaven today sitting at the feet of Jesus worshiping Him. They are not dead. Their bodies may be in the grave. But their spirits are alive in heaven. God is not the God of the dead. He is the God of the Heaven. And those saints are alive in heaven today.
The doctrine of soul sleep is a hoax.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The doctrine of soul sleep is a hoax.

HP: Very well stated DHK.

 

[BobRyan]

That is absolutely right, and that argument alone defeats soul sleep. God is the God of the living. The God of Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, etc. All these OT saints, as well as all the believers in Christ since that time are all alive with Christ in Heaven

That wild speculative insert into Matt 22 would never suffice to "prove" the resurrection to the Sadducees SINCE the point you are inserting is even MORE fully debated in that context than the point of resurrection.

It would be like saying in a debate with an atheist "And we KNOW the Bible is true because the EASTER BUNNY said it is so - and of course who could ever doubt the Easter Bunny!".

You can not prove a point of contention by bringing in an even more disputed idea as "it's proof".

However for the Sadducees "NOT the God of the dead" was not a way of saying "NOBODY is really dead" as you have wildly speculated.

Rather IN That context - the Sadducees fully accept the Biblical reasons already given for WHY God is NOT the God of "Abraham Isaac and Jacob" at the time He is speaking to Moses at the burning bush.

(reasons already given for the truth of the statment that both the Saducees AND Christ are agreed to in Matt 22 --
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=995635&postcount=165 )

And it is PRECISELY because of that AGREEMENT that they would be forced to conclude for the "future resurrection" as the ONLY solution to the puzzle that Christ presented to them!

Obviously.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

That wild speculative insert into Matt 22 would never suffice to "prove" the resurrection to the Sadducees SINCE the point you are inserting is even MORE fully debated in that context than the point of resurrection.
Bob

"That wild speculative" statement Jesus used against the Sadducees was the exact argument that put the Sadducees to silence concerning the resurrection, and the consequent fallacious hoax of the doctrine of soul sleep.
Take your matter up with Christ. He argues against you.
He is the God of the living not the God of them them than "sleep."

 

[Andre]

And those saints are alive in heaven today.
The doctrine of soul sleep is a hoax.

I would say that Paul disagrees with the above when he writes:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Let me ask a direct question. What do you believe is the state of those who have fallen "asleep" as Paul writes? I assume that you have no choice but to assert that this "sleep" refers to death of the body and not the soul. I leave it to the reader to decide how reasonable this sounds, that a person whose consciousness is in full flower, who is in heaven in a thinking, feeling, communicating state, that such a person can reasonably be described as being "asleep".

Paul goes on to rather clearly declare that it is only after Christ's return that we are "made alive". Again, I would think that those who believe that souls are presently in heaven would need to argue that "being made alive" must refer to the process of getting a resurrection body with which to wrap an already fully conscious soul / spirit.

This does not sound much like being "made alive" to me. It is just getting a container for our souls. If I understand the "immortal soul" view properly, it is the soul that bears consciounsness, engages in communication, thinks, etc. Sounds like the soul that is in Heaven before Christ's return is very much alive already.

Not to mention all the following texts which support the notion that humans effectively enter a state of "sleep" after death. It is interesting to me that none of these texts have footnotes that say "by the way, I was only talking about the body when I wrote this". Since it is the soul that apparently really bears the essence of who we really are, such an oversight seems strange indeed.

1 Kings 1:21
Otherwise it will come about, as soon as my lord the king sleeps with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon will be considered offenders."
Job 14:12
So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.
Psalm 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God;
Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death
Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt
John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover."Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead".
1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.
Acts 7:59-60
They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:18
Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
2 Peter 3:4
Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

 

[DHK]

I would say that Paul disagrees with the above when he writes:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Let me ask a direct question. What do you believe is the state of those who have fallen "asleep" as Paul writes? I assume that you have no choice but to assert that this "sleep" refers to death of the body and not the soul. I leave it to the reader to decide how reasonable this sounds, that a person whose consciousness is in full flower, who is in heaven in a thinking, feeling, communicating state, that such a person can reasonably be described as being "asleep".

Paul never refers to the spirits of those that had died before the Thessalonica believers alive at that time. The word "asleep" refers to those who had died, yes, but it always refers to thier bodies. He is referring to the resurrection. The resurrection always refers to the body, always. Are you a J.W. and believe that the resurrection of Christ was only a so-called "spirit-resurrection" which in reality is no resurrection at all. Paul wasn't referring to this either. Those that are asleep are those bodies that are in the graves. He is not referring to the spirits which are alive and with the Lord in heaven.
Paul says quite specifically:
"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
It is evident that their consciousness and their spirit was with the Lord. That was Paul's teaching. Someday their bodies would rise from their sleep, and meet the Lord in their air. Their spirits would join with thier bodies, of course, at that time.

Paul goes on to rather clearly declare that it is only after Christ's return that we are "made alive". Again, I would think that those who believe that souls are presently in heaven would need to argue that "being made alive" must refer to the process of getting a resurrection body with which to wrap an already fully conscious soul / spirit.

Jesus declares: God is not the God of the dead but of the living.
Paul declared: To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Therefore your assertion is false and wrong.

This does not sound much like being "made alive" to me. It is just getting a container for our souls. If I understand the "immortal soul" view properly, it is the soul that bears consciounsness, engages in communication, thinks, etc. Sounds like the soul that is in Heaven before Christ's return is very much alive already.

The spirit (of those believers that have already died) are in heaven. Read the book of Revelation and see what John saw. He saw those who had been dead and had believed singing the song of the redeemed.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

This isn't an argument for soul sleep is it? What did John see? The resurrection had not yet taken place (that is the resurrection of all believers). He saw the spirits of believers, those who had been redeemed by the blood of the lamb, singing a new song, and praise to God. This is not soul sleep, is it? They were doing anything BUT sleeping.

 

[Andre]

Jesus declares: God is not the God of the dead but of the living.
Paul declared: To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Therefore your assertion is false and wrong

No. A person who sleeps will indeed, in terms of the content of their experience, indeed transition to a state of immediate presence with the Lord, even if they have slept for thousands of years in between. The style of delivery of the "to be absent from the body..." teaching can easily be seen as taking a "what it will be like" perspective.

 

[DHK]

No. A person who sleeps will indeed, in terms of the content of their experience, indeed transition to a state of immediate presence with the Lord, even if they have slept for thousands of years in between. The style of delivery of the "to be absent from the body..." teaching can easily be seen as taking a "what it will be like" perspective.

You have just dismissed all the Scripture I have given you with an opinion.

 

[BobRyan]

No. A person who sleeps will indeed, in terms of the content of their experience, indeed transition to a state of immediate presence with the Lord, even if they have slept for thousands of years in between. The style of delivery of the "to be absent from the body..." teaching can easily be seen as taking a "what it will be like" perspective.

Very true. The status of "no-function" means you don't have the "cycles" to say "Oh dear me I have been asleep for 2000 years and now still waiting". Rather it is "in a moment" from death to the resurrection.

In 2Cor 5 Paul describes that intermediate state as "unclothed" by comparison to bEING clothed in this life in this decaying tent.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul never refers to the spirits of those that had died before the Thessalonica believers alive at that time. The word "asleep" refers to those who had died, yes, but it always refers to thier bodies.

It always refers to THE PERSON and NEVER the body.

In the case of the body it is "from DUST to DUST".

It is ALWAYS the PERSON who "sleeps" not your fingers. Not something "the person HAS" as in "His body is asleep" but rather "LAZARUS SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM".

Not "Lazarus' BODY sleeps I go that I may wake IT".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK proposes a wild speculative interpretation of Matt 22 where Christ is giving a proof for the RESURRECTION based on the conversation between God and Moses about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Originally Posted by DHK
That is absolutely right, and that argument alone defeats soul sleep. God is the God of the living. The God of Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, etc. All these OT saints, as well as all the believers in Christ since that time are all alive with Christ in Heaven

I point out that PROVING the resurrection with the even MORE highly dubious claim that "ALL dead people are alive with Christ" is NOT something we find IN the Matt 22 text - DHK simply "makes it up". The problem with making stuff up is readily apparent -- but the problem in LOGIC is that this is the "easter bunny" argument. ARguing that the Bible is true "because the easter bunny said so"

That point was already made here -- http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=996035&postcount=169

"That wild speculative" statement Jesus used against the Sadducees

Jesus never used a wild speculative statment against the Sadducees -- you simply made one up in the form "All these OT saints, as well as all the believers in Christ since that time are all alive with Christ in Heaven ". Which is wording we DO NOT find Christ using in Matt 22

By CONTRAST what we DO see Jesus saying in Matt 22 is a statement He agreed to as TRUE and in fact agreed upon by BOTH Sadducees AND Christ. He was not making the "easter bunny" argument that you proposed.

Obviously

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Jesus never used a wild speculative statment against the Sadducees -- you simply made one up in the form "All these OT saints, as well as all the believers in Christ since that time are all alive with Christ in Heaven ". Which is wording we DO NOT find Christ using in Matt 22

By CONTRAST what we DO see Jesus saying in Matt 22 is a statement He agreed to as TRUE and in fact agreed upon by BOTH Sadducees AND Christ. He was not making the "easter bunny" argument that you proposed.

Obviously

Obviously not!
You say that Jesus was agreeing with the Sadducees. Hardly! The Sadducees did not believe in the Resurrection. They were the liberals of the day, denying many of the orthodox doctrines of the faith. NO, Jesus did not agree with them. He was sounldy rebuking them.

God is not the God of the dead but of the living. The reason that he made that statement is that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, but of course Christ and his disciples did. He was pointing out the error of their way. There was a resurrection. There are people in heaven--even now.

Matthew 22:31-32 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

There is a resurrection of the dead--dead bodies, not spirits. The spirits are already in heaven as is evidenced by the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Lazarus lay in Abraham's bosom (paradise). But even greater evidence is given by John in Rev.5:9

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

So who are these people? They are the redeemed. They are the spirits of the saved awaiting the resurrection of the dead, which had not happened yet (and still has not happened). But the dead in Christ live on in heaven while their bodies lie dead (asleep) in the grave, turning to dust and ashes.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Jesus never used a wild speculative statment against the Sadducees -- you simply made one up in the form "All these OT saints, as well as all the believers in Christ since that time are all alive with Christ in Heaven ". Which is wording we DO NOT find Christ using in Matt 22

By CONTRAST what we DO see Jesus saying in Matt 22 is a statement He agreed to as TRUE "God is NOT the God of the DEAD" and in fact THAT POINT is agreed upon by BOTH Sadducees AND Christ. He was not making the "easter bunny" argument that you proposed.

Obviously

DHK
Obviously not!
You say that Jesus was agreeing with the Sadducees. Hardly!

Making stuff up and gaming the point is not helping you promote your argument.

THIS IS what we DO find in the TEXT where BOTH sides DO agree -
"God is NOT the God of the DEAD"

This is what we DO NOT FIND IN the text. Where only YOU make it up!
All these OT saints, as well as all the believers in Christ since that time are all alive with Christ in Heaven ".

I keep calling that the "easter bunny argument" because you invent an even MORE incompatible idea as "proof" for the resurrection. That failed logic is NEVER used in a compelling debate.


By contrast we notice that on the DISPUTED points Christ uses scripture to establish fact - on the AGREED UPON points he merely has to reference the fact as a given!

Understanding why this is so Obviously the basic format for ALL such debates is left as an exercise for the reader --

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Obviously not!

God is not the God of the dead but of the living. The reason that he made that statement is that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, but of course Christ and his disciples did. He was pointing out the error of their way. There was a resurrection. There are people in heaven--even now.

As the saying goes "dead wrong" sir.

Christ points SPECIFICALLY to God speaking with Moses at the burning bush saying "I Am the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" and then says "God is not the God of the DEAD".

The argument he was making WAS NOT that the Abraham HAD ALREADY BEEN RESURRECTED as you seem to widly speculate!!

EVEN in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus Abraham is NOT pictured as one who HAS ALREADY been resurrected!!

Christ stated that HIS INTENT was "REGARDING the RESURRECTION" to PROVE the resurrection!

How does he PROVE it to Sadducees? He Shows them from scripture that there HAS to be a resurrection because that is the ONLY SOLUTION for getting God's statement to Moses at the burning bush to be found to be true SINCE "God is NOT the God of the DEAD"!!

The point is glaringly obvious and it only works one way!

In Christ,

Bob