Matt 18 and Forgiveness Revoked

[steaver]

As I said in my last message post, we love others when we realize just how underserving we were and are of God's mercy, THEN His love flows through us to others... and the Bible CLEARLY says in all simplicity that if we do not love our brother WE WILL NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE!

Hi sister, actually you are very near to understanding how one's attributes/fruits show one's spiritual condition. You just kinda miss the point about OSAS which is declared throughout the scriptures. Here is the fine line you have breached so to speak, the Bible does not..... "CLEARLY says in all simplicity that if we do not love our brother WE WILL NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE!"...what it does say is.... "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Where you go wrong is thinking that this is a saved person who has begun or continues to hate his brother. What it really is, is a person who has never been saved. Eternal life is not something coming in the future to the believer. Once saved it is a sealed deal and you have eternal life at spiritual birth.

You see there isn't any conditional list to keep in order to keep your salvation. If there was it would make God a liar when He says "not of yourselves".

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

and THIS SIDE of the cross of Christ we read:


1John:3:

14: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

How can you be "saved" if you are abiding in DEATH and do not have eternal life abiding in you?

Sorry siter, I did not read far enough to see that you did post the text concerning hate and eternal life. Answer to your question here is you can't be saved and are not saved if you are abiding in DEATH and do not have eternal life abiding in you. Not saved...never was.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

I don't mean to say that those who are saved do not sin - just that they can not hand Christ a "conditional surrender" it must be "unconditional"

WHAT!!?? You are going against what you have been lobying for all this time. Now you say it is "unconditional"? Now I am confused. Is salvation a "conditional surrender" or is it "unconditional"?

Make a list Bob...What I must do (that would be conditions) to be saved...and let me see it.

I have to run right now, I will read over all of your post later. I just run out of time for now.

God Bless!

 

[Claudia_T]

Receiving the LOVE of the Truth, not just receiving the Truth

I wanted to add, while I am thinking about it, the fact that so many misguided Christians today do not seem to realize that they need not to only receive the Truth, but they need to receive THE LOVE OF the Truth and the Truth must be IN them.

The man in the parable received the Truth, but then he proved he didnt receive THE LOVE OF the Truth and that the Truth was not IN HIM... by going right out and trying to strangle someone who owed him a debt.

If you dont receive the Truth to become A PART OF you and THE LOVE OF the Truth then you are lost.

Read this:

2Thes:2:
10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

You see, these described people in Thessalonians did not receive THE LOVE OF the Truth and therefore they were not SAVED. They "had pleasure in unrighteousness" and so God sends them a delusion.

The Bible says if we claim to "know God" yet we do not His Law, then we prove we are liars and that THE TRUTH IS NOT IN YOU"

Read:


1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Thats what the Bible is talking about when it says all those things about "ABIDING" in Jesus, Abiding in the Truth... not just accepting the Holy Spirit as some sort of "temporary guest" but rather, allowing the Spirit of God to transform you.

Rv:3:20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I WILL COME IN TO HIM, and will sup with him, and he with me.

The same Holy Spirit that comes to you and woos you and causes you to become enlightened to your spiritual condition and your "undone" state, and that causes you to in humility accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, also continues to work upon the heart to subdue your evil traits.

You cannot ACCEPT the Holy Spirit by allowing Him to cause you to accept the sacrifice of Jesus for your sins and then REJECT the Holy Spirit all the time after that, by refusing to allow Him to subdue your sinful traits of character.

Alot of people want the crown but not the cross.

Lk:9:23: And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up HIS cross daily, and follow me.

They want to stay just like the heathen and only love those who love them. They never really allowed the work of the Holy Spirit to have any deep abiding effect upon their hearts.


Im sorry but I cannot see that a Christian who claims to know and love God yet does not want Him to be Lord of his life, and does not have the Truth IN HIM ... would be saved.

1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Claudia

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I don't mean to say that those who are saved do not sin - just that they can not hand Christ a "conditional surrender" it must be "unconditional"

WHAT!!?? You are going against what you have been lobying for all this time. Now you say it is "unconditional"? Now I am confused. Is salvation a "conditional surrender" or is it "unconditional"?

Make a list Bob...What I must do (that would be conditions) to be saved...and let me see it.

I have to run right now, I will read over all of your post later. I just run out of time for now.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]If one would pay attention it is quite simple:

1. All conditions are preastablished by God, not you or me. So there are condition but not of our own choosing.

2. One cannot and will not enter into a valid covenant knowing of God, but not willing to obey all He commands (Love him buy obeying his commands - faith)

3. Conditions are simple: Be taught the truth, repent of lifestyle for that truth, confess (in word and life) Jesus is Lord, Be baptized (for forgiveness entering into a covenant with God through Christ)

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

1. Is not grace ever present in the lives of unbelievers and believers alike? ( Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. The point: Grace is an ever present enviornment for the living (good or bad).

2. Is not Rom 5:8 grace to those who have not even come to God through faith in Christ yet? I would say so. We done nothing to deserve that Gift of oppertunity to come to God through Christ.

3. But notice how grace is not absent of Faith! Through Faith (Heb 11 the hole chapter should give you a true idea of how faith is not absent of truth, hope and an obedient life style). The path is fully set by Gods grace, however, you still have to have faith to enter the new covenant.

4. Get it out your head that the Apostles are addressing non beleivers and not true christians. They wrote letters to Brothers and sisters in Christ.

5. Admit it to yourself just once that the works the apostles address were of the Law not of Jesus' commands.

Grace and Peace

 

[Avshalom]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I don't mean to say that those who are saved do not sin - just that they can not hand Christ a "conditional surrender" it must be "unconditional"

WHAT!!?? You are going against what you have been lobying for all this time. Now you say it is "unconditional"? Now I am confused. Is salvation a "conditional surrender" or is it "unconditional"?</font>[/QUOTE]I believe what Bob meant is very clear. The condition of salvation is our unconditional surrender. God will not accept anything les than that.

 

[Avshalom]

Here is a good verse that shows the necessity of unconditional surrender for salvation:

Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Just imagine the besieged king trying to negotiate peace. His only choice: take everything we have but let us alive. No conditions.

 

[Avshalom]

Proofs of conditional salvation? The Bible is full of them. Have a look on this.


We must be born again. Jesus told Nicodemus, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again” (John 3:3). Those who have a saving faith are born again. Can a person see the kingdom of God without being born again? No. Jesus stated it is an absolute requirement.

We must be righteous. Jesus said: “For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). Speaking of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, Jesus said, “But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.” As followers of Jesus we must be doers, not speakers and hearers only, making sure our actions match our words. As James said, “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says” (James 1:22).

We must love Jesus more than any other person and than our own life. “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:26). Our marching orders are “to make disciples of all nations” (Matthew 28:19). Surely no one will suggest that we can be saved if we are not disciples of Jesus.

We must follow Jesus and be willing to suffer for him. Jesus said, “And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:27). If we are not Jesus’ disciples we cannot have eternal life.

We must give up everything we have. Jesus taught: “In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:33). We cannot have salvation unless we are Jesus’ disciple.

We must never disown or deny Jesus. Jesus said, “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven” (Matthew 10:32-33).

We must bear fruit. Jesus warned: “He [God] cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful” (John 15:2).

We must remain in Jesus. Jesus said, “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned” (John 15:6).

Taken from www.bereanpublishers.com
under Salvation Issues &gt; Proofs of Conditional Salvation

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by steaver:
Are ye finding it difficult to deal with "not of yourselves"(Eph 2:8)?

When you are able to coinside Eph 2:8 with all of the "I must do's" you have compiled let me know!

You see brother, the only condition of any "gift" offered is that the recepient accept it. That is why it is called a free gift !

I'll bite:

You said the Gift need to be accepted, right? But was not the Gift packaged before a relationship was established? (Rom 5:8) Using a human argument referring to Gods gift -
Would you not give a gift after a relationship is established rather than before?

Well one still have to establish relation with the Giver (God)! Still a gift but lacking a relationship!

Now what is the criteria of the gift giver for a relationship

 

[steaver]

Claudia,

Wonderful post! I must say Amen!

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Proofs of conditional salvation? The Bible is full of them. Have a look on this.


We must be born again. Jesus told Nicodemus, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again” (John 3:3). Those who have a saving faith are born again. Can a person see the kingdom of God without being born again? No. Jesus stated it is an absolute requirement.

We must be righteous. Jesus said: “For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). Speaking of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, Jesus said, “But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.” As followers of Jesus we must be doers, not speakers and hearers only, making sure our actions match our words. As James said, “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says” (James 1:22).

We must love Jesus more than any other person and than our own life. “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:26). Our marching orders are “to make disciples of all nations” (Matthew 28:19). Surely no one will suggest that we can be saved if we are not disciples of Jesus.

We must follow Jesus and be willing to suffer for him. Jesus said, “And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:27). If we are not Jesus’ disciples we cannot have eternal life.

We must give up everything we have. Jesus taught: “In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:33). We cannot have salvation unless we are Jesus’ disciple.

We must never disown or deny Jesus. Jesus said, “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven” (Matthew 10:32-33).

We must bear fruit. Jesus warned: “He [God] cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful” (John 15:2).

We must remain in Jesus. Jesus said, “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned” (John 15:6).

How sad. This is what you present to the lost as "good news"? Doesn't sound good to me. Let me see. My righteousness is as filthy rags, my love for Jesus falls short of perfect, and I haven't given up all that I have. Looks like I will be seeing the lake of fire even with Jesus living in me.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

3. Conditions are simple: Be taught the truth, repent of lifestyle for that truth, confess (in word and life) Jesus is Lord, Be baptized (for forgiveness entering into a covenant with God through Christ)

Let's see, "repent of lifestyle" would be of myself, getting "baptized" would be of myself. But God says that salvation is a gift through faith and "that not of yourselves". Interesting indeed.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

I'll bite:

You said the Gift need to be accepted, right? But was not the Gift packaged before a relationship was established? (Rom 5:8) Using a human argument referring to Gods gift -
Would you not give a gift after a relationship is established rather than before?

Well one still have to establish relation with the Giver (God)! Still a gift but lacking a relationship!

Now what is the criteria of the gift giver for a relationship

There is no "Father/child" relationship until one is born again. One must receive the gift before one can fellowship with God.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Proofs of conditional salvation? The Bible is full of them. Have a look on this.


We must be born again. Jesus told Nicodemus, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again” (John 3:3). Those who have a saving faith are born again. Can a person see the kingdom of God without being born again? No. Jesus stated it is an absolute requirement.

We must be righteous. Jesus said: “For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). Speaking of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, Jesus said, “But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.” As followers of Jesus we must be doers, not speakers and hearers only, making sure our actions match our words. As James said, “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says” (James 1:22).

We must love Jesus more than any other person and than our own life. “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:26). Our marching orders are “to make disciples of all nations” (Matthew 28:19). Surely no one will suggest that we can be saved if we are not disciples of Jesus.

We must follow Jesus and be willing to suffer for him. Jesus said, “And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:27). If we are not Jesus’ disciples we cannot have eternal life.

We must give up everything we have. Jesus taught: “In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:33). We cannot have salvation unless we are Jesus’ disciple.

We must never disown or deny Jesus. Jesus said, “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven” (Matthew 10:32-33).

We must bear fruit. Jesus warned: “He [God] cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful” (John 15:2).

We must remain in Jesus. Jesus said, “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned” (John 15:6).

I'm curious brother. How are you measuring up to this "must do's" list you have given here? Did you make any mistakes today? How about yesterday? Are you right every day, day after day? Did you bear good fruit today? How about yesterday? Do you ever bear any bad fruit or is it always good fruit? Do you own anything? Have you given all that you have to charity? Are you sure you love Jesus with all of your heart, mind and soul? Everyday? Every moment? Have you suffered for Jesus? How so? Just things I am curious about.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Hey Bob, you said..."I don't know of any scripture that supports leaving your wife."

What bmerr was saying is that God does not recognize us as married regardless of what the government declares because she is still married to another man in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore our relationship is adultery and I must put her away or not be saved. What do you think?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Bob, back to your 12:45am post. I have no problem with your four points although I am not sure what you mean by #2. Matt 18 and Romans 11 speak nothing of the gift of eternal life, you are assuming that on your own. Eph 2:8 and Romans 11:29 do not require any asuming at all.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves"

"The gifts and calling of God are without repentance"

These two statements debunk "your" interpretation of Matt 18 and Romans 11 and any other passage which one might "think" goes against the clear teaching of OSAS.

Personally, I think those that believe they must sustain their own salvation are simply weak in the faith. I live every moment of every day relying solely on Jesus Christ for my salvation. Anything from myself would be boasting before my Lord. I will not take credit for one ounce of my salvation. It is ALL Jesus and His work alone that is my salvation. It is ZERO steaver. He hung on the cross, not I.

How about you? Are you keeping yourself saved? Tell me how?

God Bless!

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I'll bite:

You said the Gift need to be accepted, right? But was not the Gift packaged before a relationship was established? (Rom 5:8) Using a human argument referring to Gods gift -
Would you not give a gift after a relationship is established rather than before?

Well one still have to establish relation with the Giver (God)! Still a gift but lacking a relationship!

Now what is the criteria of the gift giver for a relationship

There is no "Father/child" relationship until one is born again. One must receive the gift before one can fellowship with God.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]You are dancing around the question.... On Whose terms do one receive the "Gift"? And what are those terms.

You not very good at answering the questions.

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I'll bite:

You said the Gift need to be accepted, right? But was not the Gift packaged before a relationship was established? (Rom 5:8) Using a human argument referring to Gods gift -
Would you not give a gift after a relationship is established rather than before?

Well one still have to establish relation with the Giver (God)! Still a gift but lacking a relationship!

Now what is the criteria of the gift giver for a relationship

There is no "Father/child" relationship until one is born again. One must receive the gift before one can fellowship with God.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]You have an opertunity to learn something here but your not listening.

What are the terms for receiving the gift? Does it not come to only those who believe? Is it not those that submit to Jesus being Lord of there lives? Is it not base on knowledge of the truth? Is it not on repentance?

So, you admit that there are terms to receiving a free gift!

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 3. Conditions are simple: Be taught the truth, repent of lifestyle for that truth, confess (in word and life) Jesus is Lord, Be baptized (for forgiveness entering into a covenant with God through Christ)

Let's see, "repent of lifestyle" would be of myself, getting "baptized" would be of myself. But God says that salvation is a gift through faith and "that not of yourselves". Interesting indeed.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]This is yet a continuation of your unwillingnes to see that everthing that God established is not of "yourselves", but of him.
He established the mode of salvation, not of yourself
He established grace and mercy, not of yourself
Jesus died, not of yourself.

Eph 2:8 establishes what God has setup for us, but not by us. Thats His grace. I does not address your individual respons to His terms of receiving this gift that was established, not of yourself.

Its obvious, but there is a wall (OSAS Theology), which is of yourselves

 

[steaver]

You are dancing around the question.... On Whose terms do one receive the "Gift"? And what are those terms.

On God's terms. The term is ask (Luke 11:13). The Father draws, the Spirit convicts, the sinner can ask or reject the Spirit's convictions.

You not very good at answering the questions.

That is truly a "good one". The Pharisees were always good at telling the people what they should do all the while they were doing just the opposite. Go back through this thread and see how many times you did not answer a question. Then tell me how you are "good at answering" yourself.

God Bless!