Matt 18 and Forgiveness Revoked

[steaver]

What are the terms for receiving the gift? Does it not come to only those who believe? Is it not those that submit to Jesus being Lord of there lives? Is it not base on knowledge of the truth? Is it not on repentance?

a) no. it comes to those who are convicted and ask. If you call that "belief" then it is only God who has placed that belief in you that you may call on Jesus. I don't see it that way, that is Calvinism. I see it as being shown the truth and convicted that it is the truth. From there you can ask and receive the gift or reject the offer.

b) yes, that would be a result of you asking

c) yes, that is why you were convicted

d) yes, repentance from rejection to acceptance, repentance of sins and fruitless works will follow, some immediately and many over time as the new babe learns and grows.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

This is yet a continuation of your unwillingnes to see that everthing that God established is not of "yourselves", but of him.
He established the mode of salvation, not of yourself
He established grace and mercy, not of yourself
Jesus died, not of yourself.

Eph 2:8 establishes what God has setup for us, but not by us. Thats His grace. I does not address your individual respons to His terms of receiving this gift that was established, not of yourself.

Let's see, you covered grace, you covered salvation, but why did you let out faith in your analysis? Isn't that part of Eph 2:8? Why yes it is and just as you applied what God has established which is "not of yourselves" you must also include "faith" in that group because that is what the scripture states. Or are you just picking out the parts that agree with what you personally feel fits your beliefs?

God Bless!

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> You are dancing around the question.... On Whose terms do one receive the "Gift"? And what are those terms.

On God's terms. The term is ask (Luke 11:13). The Father draws, the Spirit convicts, the sinner can ask or reject the Spirit's convictions.

You not very good at answering the questions.

That is truly a "good one". The Pharisees were always good at telling the people what they should do all the while they were doing just the opposite. Go back through this thread and see how many times you did not answer a question. Then tell me how you are "good at answering" yourself.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, you are right, I have not answered ALL your questions

The pharasee's also had a problem of holding on to there traditions and not accepting Jesus' teachings

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> What are the terms for receiving the gift? Does it not come to only those who believe? Is it not those that submit to Jesus being Lord of there lives? Is it not base on knowledge of the truth? Is it not on repentance?

a) no. it comes to those who are convicted and ask. If you call that "belief" then it is only God who has placed that belief in you that you may call on Jesus. I don't see it that way, that is Calvinism. I see it as being shown the truth and convicted that it is the truth. From there you can ask and receive the gift or reject the offer.

b) yes, that would be a result of you asking

c) yes, that is why you were convicted

d) yes, repentance from rejection to acceptance, repentance of sins and fruitless works will follow, some immediately and many over time as the new babe learns and grows.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Good, so you admit that though all establishments to get us close to God is by God and we must do something to receive the Gift that is not of ourselves, but of God.

Yes or No?

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> This is yet a continuation of your unwillingnes to see that everthing that God established is not of "yourselves", but of him.
He established the mode of salvation, not of yourself
He established grace and mercy, not of yourself
Jesus died, not of yourself.

Eph 2:8 establishes what God has setup for us, but not by us. Thats His grace. I does not address your individual respons to His terms of receiving this gift that was established, not of yourself.

Let's see, you covered grace, you covered salvation, but why did you let out faith in your analysis? Isn't that part of Eph 2:8? Why yes it is and just as you applied what God has established which is "not of yourselves" you must also include "faith" in that group because that is what the scripture states. Or are you just picking out the parts that agree with what you personally feel fits your beliefs?

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Oh don't go there now, the whole reason we are breaking down the principle of the scripture (eph 2:8) is because you refuse to see it in the light of other scriptures that contradict your theology, not eph 2:8. That's all.

Let's continue:
Faith comes from hearing the word and doing what it says. Simple. Heb 11:

The premis of OSAS is against God, because it is soley based on human thinking.

We think 'There is nothing my children can do to be disown by me, and so God is the same way. And I love my children, so if God loves us He will feel the same way'

This reasoning does not point us to God but only to ourselves as the standard. Should Gods love be judged by us?

God does everything he can to keep us, but in the end it is us who decides if we want to love him still or not.

grace and peace

 

[Avshalom]

Hi Steaver,

I guess your argument is with Jesus, not with me. My post just enumerated what Jesus himself said about being a disciple and it seems you took offence at that. If you think you can be saved without being a disciple then let us know. It is a known fact that when they see the high requirements for discipleship many people have to readily admit they do not measure up. Then they come up with all kinds of theories that explain away what Jesus said so clearly.

Regarding perfection, nowere did I say that a Christian must be perfect in the sense of being infallible. We are just humans and we will make mistakes as long as we live. Fortunatelly, mistakes are not sins. Otherwise, God would expect the impossible from us.

The sinfulness or virtue of an action consists only in the motive or the ultimate intention of that action. The root cause of all sin is selfishness and this is where the initial difficulty lies for sinners. In order to get right with God we all have to repent of our selfishness and desire righteousness. Only then will our motives be pure.

Now there many folks who believe "we all sin in word, thought, and deed everyday". In my opinion, this is just a poor man-made theory, as it is the theory of "imputed righteousness". With the risk of being labeled as self-righteous I testify here that I definitely do not sin everyday. "How shall we continue in sin" after receiving the grace of God and the knowledge of the truth? "Having been set free from sin we became slaves to righteousness."

Of course, I often make mistakes and sometimes I do sin. Then I go to God in faith, confess my sin, and ask for forgiveness. But I cannot be forgiven unless I forsake that sin. To believe otherwise is just to fool yourself. God is patient and gives us enough time to repent if we are His children. It is regretable that too many will choose not to repent when they fall ino sin, and believe they can be in a state of justification while continuing in known sin. Now this is a very griveous error that will cost your soul.

I know from my own experience the sad reality of all this. Shortly after getting saved I was overcome by temptation, fell into sin, and continued for a while to indulge in it. I had no doubt that I would have gone to hell if I continued in that sin. Fortunately, the conviction got so strong that I eventualy forsook that sin and was immediately restored. Renewed assurance of salvation followed then naturally.

Now regarding sins we are not aware of, I believe they are automatically covered by the blood of Jesus. God only holds us accountable for what we know. Only willful sin can be properly called sin. Of course, as we grow in faith, He will reveal us more and more sin in our lives that we were not aware of. When God reveals sin, He expects us to forsake it if we are to continue in a state of justification.

Too many people stumble exactly at this point, like I did. They refuse to give up sin when convicted by God. Now this is where the danger of OSAS lies. These poor fellows imagine that an initial act of faith will get them to heaven apart from continuing to walk after the spirit and puting to death the deeds of the flesh.

Christian life is a fight, but the good news is that God provided us with everything we need to overcome. He is always besides us, ready to help, but it is our responsibility to remain in Him. He will never force us to stay against our will. So sad that many are lured by the deceitfulness of sin and are entangled again in the world... to their own destruction.

I hope you will receive this with the right spirit.

In Christ,
Avshalom

[ January 17, 2006, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Avshalom ]

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
Hey Bob, you said..."I don't know of any scripture that supports leaving your wife."


What bmerr was saying is that God does not recognize us as married regardless of what the government declares because she is still married to another man in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore our relationship is adultery and I must put her away or not be saved. What do you think?

I don't deny that there are marriages that God would not approve of - "Christians marrying nonChristian" for example. But even in those cases he says not to leave the unbelieving spouse.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
Bob, back to your 12:45am post. I have no problem with your four points although I am not sure what you mean by #2. Matt 18 and Romans 11 speak nothing of the gift of eternal life, you are assuming that on your own. Eph 2:8 and Romans 11:29 do not require any asuming at all.

#1 - my point number 2 did not say what is in your point above - so I am not sure where you are going with that.

#2. I refused to "gloss over the details" of Matt 18 - I merely pointed out the obvious that is "in" the text. You are free to point to any one of the 4 points and argue that it does not exist.

#3. Your method below is to ignore Matt 18 and entirely and explain why you prefer Eph 2:8 instead.

I merely point out that both Matt 18 AND Romans 11 show the Christian saved state "revoked". In Romans 11 it is being cast out of the vine of Christ and in Matt 18 it is having the original Gospel forgiveness of the massive debt of sin - revoked.

Your point is that Eph 2:8 stays out of the way of "OSAS" whereas Matt 18 and Romans 11 gets in its way.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves"

"The gifts and calling of God are without repentance"

These two statements debunk "your" interpretation of Matt 18 and Romans 11

Exegesis is not found in ignoring the texts that you don't like or in this case - ignoring the section of Romans 11 that does not fit OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said

The Text of Matt 18 is "very clear" and it is addressed TO PETER and those who along with him - are following Christ - the true Messiah!

#1. There is "no escaping" the fact that it IS an illustration of "The Kingdom of Heaven".

#2. There is "no escaping" the fact that the summary words of Christ in that instance are OUTSIDE the PARABLE!!

#3. There is "no escaping" the fact that this teaching OF CHRIST is written more than a decade AFTER the cross in obedience to Christ's command to "GO and teach others ALL that I TAUGHT YOU" in Matt 28.

#4. There is "no escaping" the fact that Christ says to Peter "REAL FORGIVENESS" given to him by God demands that we TOO show that same spirit of forgiveness to others!

If you can show in the details of Matt 18 that any of these four basic obvious points are not in there - now is the time.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
You are arguing your "philosphy" on what you prefer rather than "the details" of the text of Matt 18.

I am simply pointing out the irrefutable details we see in the chapter. You are responding with why you don't like them rather than "showing" in the text - in exegesis how your view stands up to the text under discussion.

Look at the points above - and tell me which one is not in the text if you find that to be the case.

Again the opportunity to review the points and "the details of Matt 18" and show that they don't exist.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

In fact this is a PERFECT MATCH to the MAtt 18 concept of forgiveness revoked and it has been pointed out repeatedly.

In your match up - you completely ignore this section of Romans 11. This is not furthering your argument because you are not addressing the point raised.

IF your interpretation of Romans 11 on the "gifts and calling of God" were applicable to the "Forgiveness" offerred in the Kingdom of heaven through the Gospel - then the Matt 18 text "would not exist" -- AND MORE than that - NEITHER would the Romans 11 text exist saying "NEITHER will he spare you". This alone shows that you have eisegeted part of Romans 11 to the contradiction not only of Matt 18 but ALSO to Romans 11 ITSELF!

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[steaver]

Good, so you admit that though all establishments to get us close to God is by God and we must do something to receive the Gift that is not of ourselves, but of God.

Yes or No?

I do not consider answering "yes" to God's invite a deed or work. I guess that is where we will always differ.

Oh don't go there now, the whole reason we are breaking down the principle of the scripture (eph 2:8) is because you refuse to see it in the light of other scriptures that contradict your theology, not eph 2:8. That's all.

Good deflection.

Let's continue:
Faith comes from hearing the word and doing what it says. Simple. Heb 11:

The premis of OSAS is against God, because it is soley based on human thinking.

We think 'There is nothing my children can do to be disown by me, and so God is the same way. And I love my children, so if God loves us He will feel the same way'

This reasoning does not point us to God but only to ourselves as the standard. Should Gods love be judged by us?

God does everything he can to keep us, but in the end it is us who decides if we want to love him still or not.

grace and peace

Unless you find out what it means to be "born again" you will never understand God's Father to child relationship.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Hi Steaver,

I guess your argument is with Jesus, not with me. My post just enumerated what Jesus himself said about being a disciple and it seems you took offence at that. If you think you can be saved without being a disciple then let us know.

To be perfectly honest brother, I never feel offended by anyone I deliberate with. I even had a brother declare me to hell because I am married to another man's ex-wife. It does not offend me because I know the truth. I also am very at peace with what God has shown me about OSAS. Also, I do not think one can be saved without becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ. Being saved makes one a disciple of Jesus Christ. It comes with the Holy Spirit package.

Take care and God Bless!

 

[steaver]

If you can show in the details of Matt 18 that any of these four basic obvious points are not in there - now is the time.

In Christ,

Bob

What does #2 mean? I wasn't refering to it above. I just don't understand what you are saying "OUTSIDE the PARABLE"

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant (vss. 23-25) was used by Jesus to reinforce the power and importance of the principle of forgiveness. A certain king represents God, the sovereign Father (cf. vs. 35), to whom the debt is owed. The one who owed him is a servant or satrap who had access to the kings money, and represents the individual sinner. Ten thousand talents was an insurmountable debt equivalent to millions of dollars in our society. It represents the debt of sin which the sinner cannot possibly pay by himself. The command that he be sold...and payment to be made indicates his being placed in a debtor's prison. However, an entire lifetime of service could never repay such a debt. The interpreter must stick to the main point of the parable and not be sidetracked by its minor details. The compassion of the king releases him and forgives (cancels) the debt . the picture illustrates God's total forgiveness when dealing with our sins at the point of salvation. The debt has been paid by Christ and we are set free from it forever!
28-35. The contrast in verse 28, where the same servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant a debt of a hundred pence (about ten dollars) is deliberately prersented as a hideous hypothetical situation. As unbelievable as this action would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a Christian discipple, who has been forgiven a lifetime of sin, to be unforgiving of others. In the story, such an unforgiving servant is called a wicked servant because no true believer would do such. The unforgiving servant is not the one who was saved and then lost his salvation. The story is merely hypothetical; no one forgiven a debt of millions would behave this way, therefore, the intention of the parable is to challenge the genuineness of the disciple's conversion. A truly saved man would never behave like the man in the story, who was delivered to the tormentors . This is certainly not a reference to purgatory. One behaving in this manner falls into the condemnation of the lost. The searching threat of verse 35 does not mean that a true believer will be lost, but if he claims to be born of God, he will act like a born-again person. True forgiveness "from the heart" of a regenerated man is one of the true signs of genuine salvation and conversion (cf. Eph 4:32). Saved people are both forgiven and forgiving. Unforgiving people prove that they have never been born of God.

Edward E. Hindson, Th.D., D.Min. B.A., William Tyndale Colledge; M.A., Trinity Evangelical Divinity School; Th.M., Grace Theological Seminary; Th.D., Trinity Graduate School of Theology; D.Min., Westminister Theological Seminary; D.Litt. (Hon.), California Graduate school of Theology.

Now this would allow harmony with Eph 2:8, Romans 11:29. There are other viable interpretations as well, the saved becoming lost is not one of them.

God Bless!

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by steaver:
I do not consider answering "yes" to God's invite a deed or work. I guess that is where we will always differ.

Of course YOU don't and that's the problem. At what point in time did God give you the ability to draw the line between what is a "Work" and what is not?

Yes or No, Is it not true that when the apostles address the issue of "works" that they are specifically referring to the LAW of Moses (Circumcision) and not to the Teaching of Christ?

Yes or No, are Jesus commands "Work"?

Your bleif is not based on Jesus' teachings, but only on your theology. If you did accept Jesus' teachings you would be able to admit:

1. The parable of Mat 18 was given to believers about believers

2. The Master is Obviously GOD

3. The servants Obviously the Disciples

4. Foregiveness was revoked

Unless you find out what it means to be "born again" you will never understand God's Father to child relationship.

Unless you have an ear to Hear what the spirit says to the church you will never repent.

Your problem is simple: you believe man more than Jesus.

Your OSAS theology is causing suffering of not being able to harmonize scripture thus seing the truth, but rather it causes men to not believe Jesus.

Put your guard down for just a second.
Read John 15:1-17

1. you should be able to see clearly that it lines up with Rom 11 (perfectly).

2. Ask yourself one question... "Is Jesus' love unconditional", don't have a knee-jerk reaction to the question, but write down any statements of conditions that he preached to the desciples.

I am truly trying to help you be fair to yourself.

[ January 18, 2006, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Tazman ]

 

[steaver]

Of course YOU don't and that's the problem. At what point in time did God give you the ability to draw the line between what is a "Work" and what is not?

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".(2Ti 2:15)

Yes or No, Is it not true that when the apostles address the issue of "works" that they are specifically referring to the LAW of Moses (Circumcision) and not to the Teaching of Christ?

Jesus taught..."For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast".

Yes or No, are Jesus commands "Work"?

Some are and some are not. We are commanded to believe, but faith is not a "work".

Your bleif is not based on Jesus' teachings, but only on your theology. If you did accept Jesus' teachings you would be able to admit:

1. The parable of Mat 18 was given to believers about believers

2. The Master is Obviously GOD

3. The servants Obviously the Disciples

4. Foregiveness was revoked

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".(2Ti 2:15)

Dig a little deeper.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
What does #2 mean? I wasn't refering to it above. I just don't understand what you are saying "OUTSIDE the PARABLE"

Jesus is not a character IN the parable.

IN the parable you have only the king and the servants. None of "them" say "SO shall MY Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

So when you are trying to wash out "this very detail" claiming that it is something in the parable we should ignore - you are in fact pointing to the words of Christ "outside" the parable. If Christ can not be heard IN the parable and also He can not be heard OUTSIDE the context of the parable - when CAN He be heard?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As unbelievable as this action would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a Christian discipple, who has been forgiven a lifetime of sin, to be unforgiving of others. In the story, such an unforgiving servant is called a wicked servant because no true believer would do such. The unforgiving servant is not the one who was saved and then lost his salvation. The story is merely hypothetical; no one forgiven a debt of millions would behave this way, therefore, the intention of the parable is to challenge the genuineness of the disciple's conversion

This is called eisegesis! It is called "standing the text on its head"!!

Notice that the POINT in the "recast" of the text above is to claim that the text is challenging the "genuine nature" of the KINGS's statement "I FORGAVE YOU".

The total "rework" that OSAS "needs" is to divert AWAY from the KING's claim that the FORGIVEN servant SHOULD forgive others and to twist it around to say "IF you were REALLY forgiven by ME then you COULD only forgive others. But SINCE you are not forgiving others THEN I MUST HAVE LIED when I said I forgave you!"

How such a spin- such a twist and wrench of the text be "ignored"? It testifies to the powerful atraction that the tradition of OSAS has had on Christians in recent times.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Tazman]

no one forgiven a debt of millions would behave this way

Seems to be placing alot of confidence in man.