Matt. 25:30

[Me2]

outer darkness is in relationship to a position of understanding.

in understanding truth of Gods knowledge of Good and evil. once a person is chosen to be a reprobate representative. they are identified as an antichrist and false prophet. designed to be resistance to the true followers and desciples of Christ

in the next age these entities are chosen to be disembodied spirits needed to be resistance overagainst the sons of God and their function.
the next age is the great harvest of Gods creation. it is also a spiritual war taking place between the sons of God and the antichrists and false prophets for the souls of Gods creation.

outerdarkness can be more clearly understood as not a part of the visible world. as well as non understanding of Gods truth.

yet the next age is also temporary.
the vessels of wrath provide a purpose in Gods plans of being resistence within it.
when Gods creation is harvested, then the third age begins with the application of mercy towards the vessels of wrath and their salvation.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

there are three ages (or days) in Gods plans.
Jesus is three days and nights in the earth.
(this the understanding of the sign spoken of)

he is in this age in the "sons of God".
the next age in the great harvest.
in the 3rd age in the salvation of the vessels of wrath.

three nights and days of "death and life" in
mankind.
three experiences of darkness and light with the understanding here of outerdarkness being towards the vessels of wrath.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I'm back.

Understand, during Old Testament period, a servant who loves master, want to serve to the master. So, the master put servent's ear, and pinned his ear posted to the doorpost, and struck with it, cannot leave shows the picture of the servant wants to serve his master through all his life till death.

In the picture that Christ commands us to serve him all the time, cannot serve two masters at same. We must choose one master to serve.

You saying, that a servant died about 60 or 70 years is not an everlasting. I understand what you saying. The point of these verses telling us, we should serve the Lord all the times, not temporary time till our death, but not just end at our death, also, we shall continue serve the Lord froever and ever after our death.

The problem with Matt 25:30, it does not saying that the lazy servant will be finally release out from the 'outer darkeness' after 1000 years of millennial kingdom ends.

Christ taught us, there shall be the only one future judgment day at Lord's coming and the end of the world.

There shall be the only one harvest day at the end of the world in Matthew 13:49-52.

During Christ's ministry, he never teaching to his disciples about 1,000 years beyond of His coming. He taught them, the end of the world will be arrived when Christ shall come with his angels, to gather all nations, cast them into everlasting fire.

Book of Revelation have lot of symbol meanings. Tomorrow night, I will discuss about Revelation chapter 20 and millennium issue.

"outer darkness" is same as everlasting punishment, it is not a temporary place. Notice, Christ never, never saying 'outer darkeness' is a temporary place or time.

By the way, I will discuss more on "The Rod" Will God Spare It?" on chapter: 'Appendix A - Everlasting, Forever and Eternal' from pp. 389 to 399, tomorrow night with verses what Faust intepreted them. I will discuss more on these verses what these are saying.

the next age is also temporary

Bible does not saying it.

there are three ages in God's plan

Bible does not saying it. Bible teaches us there are only two ages.

he is in this age in the "sons of God" the next age in the great harvest. in the 3rd age in the salvation of the vessels of wrath.

You saying of three ages in your own logicals, you need to prove them from the scriptures.

The Bible teaches us there are only two ages. Tomorrow night, I will discuss more about two ages with scriptures.

Also, I will discuss more about 'everlasting', 'forever', and 'eternal' with verses.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Bartholomew,

Thank you for your information. Now I have another question for you, who are the

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> early fundamentalists who rightly pointed out that some Christians will spend the 1000 years somewhere much worse than heaven...

</font>[/QUOTE]Hi Craig,

There were many such teachers, for example Robert Govett (1813-1901), G.H. Pember (1837-1910), S.S. Craig (1855-1936?), D.M Panton (1870-1955), G.H. Lang (1874-1958), A.G. Tilney (1891-1976), and Watchman Nee (1903-1972). The view that the millennial kingdom was a reward (not a gift) was held by almost all early pre-millennialists. Added to that, the idea that Christians could be punished at the judgement seat of Christ was also much more widely held a hundred years ago. Many authors applied the "outer darkness" to Christians, though what exactly the "outer darkness" was seems to have not been quite clear amongst some of them (though I haven't read enough of their works to talk much about that).

Does anyone know anything more about R.E. Neighbour (1872-1945) and his teaching on this subject?

Neighbour is one of those who was adament that Christians could be punished at the judgement seat, excluded from the kingdom, and cast into outer-darkness. However, this is what he had to say about the unfaithful Christian, who will be punished at the judgement seat (p.81 of "If by any Means", 1985 reprint, Conley Schoettle Publishing):
---
(a) He was cut asunder. He had no part or lot with the wise servant.
(b) He found his portion with the hypocrites - he, at least, was not alone, in his condition.
(c)He had weeping and gnashing of teeth. This is only one out of seven similar statements, by our Lord.
To explain these things, we cannot. We, however, certainly accept the Word of our Lord, as authoritative and final.
We accept that "the Lord will judge his people."
We accept Paul's warning: "Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord we persuade men."
We believe "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God;" fearful even to HIS PEOPLE; fearful both in this life and at the Bema.
----

As you can see, Neighbour is adament that the warnings apply to believers, though notice he says he cannot explain these things. So, I suppose that means he's not quite in the camp of those I mentioned above, who believed believers could be punished in hell/hades/gehenna for the duration of the one-thousnad year kingdom. However, he certainly believed that this "outer darkenss" was a punishment (and also involved being barred from the kingdom - the book makes this clear, a whole quarter of it coming under the title "Missing the kingdom"), and did not say it was in heaven. So he seems to have been somewhere between the two camps.

As I said, I agree with Zane Hodges that Chrsitians can be cast into outer-darkness, though it seems to me that others who applied this passage to Christians gave it a lot more force, and didn't just make it a lesser place in heaven.

Hope that helps...?

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:

You saying, that a servant died about 60 or 70 years is not an everlasting.

No, I'm saying it IS everlasting! I'm saying the Bible uses the word "everlasting" in several different ways. As I explained above, the fact that the fire is "everlasting" does not mean it will continue or all infinity (neccessarily). It could just as well mean that it will continue for the whole duration of the kingdom (the fact that hell is cast into the Lake of Fire suggests that the fire that continues for all infinity is actually a different fire). And even if it does mean what you say it does, there is nothing to stop someone being taken OUT of absolutely everlasting fire. Indeed, Rev 20 (as I keep saying) shows that this WILL happen.

The problem with Matt 25:30, it does not saying that the lazy servant will be finally release out from the 'outer darkeness' after 1000 years of millennial kingdom ends.

So what? It doesn't say unbelievers will be in the outerdarkness, but you believe that, don't you? You have to put the teachings of different scriptures together. Notice that the context is the "kingdom of heaven", which I think is easily proven to be the millennial kingdom. There is nothing in the passage that precludes the lazy servant being let out AFTER the kingdom of heaven.

Christ taught us, there shall be the only one future judgment day at Lord's coming and the end of the world.

Yes, but the end of the world happens 1000 years before the universe is destroyed, and when it IS destroyed, there's another (Great White Throne) judgement.

During Christ's ministry, he never teaching to his disciples about 1,000 years beyond of His coming.

No, he taught about the kingdom that the Old Testament continually prophesied. And Rev 20 tells us it will last 1000 years.

"outer darkness" is same as everlasting punishment, it is not a temporary place. Notice, Christ never, never saying 'outer darkeness' is a temporary place or time.

Nor does the Exodus passage tell us that the servant will only serve his master for a limited amount of time. We know that from the context, and from what else the Bible teaches.

Anyway, nice talking with you brother. I'm afriad I have LOADS of work to do in the near future, so don't know when I'll be back.

God bless,

Bartholomew

 

[Craigbythesea]

There were many such teachers, for example Robert Govett (1813-1901), G.H. Pember (1837-1910), S.S. Craig (1855-1936?), D.M Panton (1870-1955), G.H. Lang (1874-1958), A.G. Tilney (1891-1976), and Watchman Nee (1903-1972). The view that the millennial kingdom was a reward (not a gift) was held by almost all early pre-millennialists. Added to that, the idea that Christians could be punished at the judgement seat of Christ was also much more widely held a hundred years ago. Many authors applied the "outer darkness" to Christians, though what exactly the "outer darkness" was seems to have not been quite clear amongst some of them (though I haven't read enough of their works to talk much about that).

Bartholomew,

You have been a great help. It seems as though the teachings of Zane Hodges are not an invention of his, but a further development of teachings by men who preceded him. I have here in my study a copy of Robert Govett’s commentary on Romans (The Righteousness of God the Salvation of the Believer) and G. H. Lang’s commentary on Daniel. I also have six of Watchman Nee’s books. I have read only brief parts of these books and now I can see that I need to read them through. I have come across the names of Pember and Panton in past studies, but I don’t remember what they had to say. S.S. Craig and A. G. Tilney are strangers to me. But now, thanks to your generous help, I know where to get a whole lot of information.

Charles Spurgeon wrote of Robert Govett, “Mr. Govett wrote a hundred years before his time, and the day will come when his works will be treasured as sifted gold.”

 

[Craigbythesea]

Neighbour is one of those who was adament that Christians could be punished at the judgement seat, excluded from the kingdom, and cast into outer-darkness. However, this is what he had to say about the unfaithful Christian, who will be punished at the judgement seat (p.81 of "If by any Means", 1985 reprint, Conley Schoettle Publishing):
---
(a) He was cut asunder. He had no part or lot with the wise servant.
(b) He found his portion with the hypocrites - he, at least, was not alone, in his condition.
(c)He had weeping and gnashing of teeth. This is only one out of seven similar statements, by our Lord.
To explain these things, we cannot. We, however, certainly accept the Word of our Lord, as authoritative and final.
We accept that "the Lord will judge his people."
We accept Paul's warning: "Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord we persuade men."
We believe "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God;" fearful even to HIS PEOPLE; fearful both in this life and at the Bema.
----

As you can see, Neighbour is adament that the warnings apply to believers, though notice he says he cannot explain these things. So, I suppose that means he's not quite in the camp of those I mentioned above, who believed believers could be punished in hell/hades/gehenna for the duration of the one-thousnad year kingdom. However, he certainly believed that this "outer darkenss" was a punishment (and also involved being barred from the kingdom - the book makes this clear, a whole quarter of it coming under the title "Missing the kingdom"), and did not say it was in heaven. So he seems to have been somewhere between the two camps.

As I said, I agree with Zane Hodges that Chrsitians can be cast into outer-darkness, though it seems to me that others who applied this passage to Christians gave it a lot more force, and didn't just make it a lesser place in heaven.

Bartholomew,

I am I correct in assuming that Neighbour, along with Hodges, as well as Govett et. al., believed that naughty Christians, after being punished during a future 1000 year period, will then spend eternity in heaven?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

after being punished during a future 1000 year period, will then spend eternity in heaven?

You HAVE TO prove us a SOLID evidence verse in the Bible to saying it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Later tonight, I will make more posts to continue discuss on Matt. 25:30, because tonight is my night off from work.


In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[brumleyj]

did you found any security salvation in any scripture in the bible ? does Christ teaching security or conditonal salvation? i strong argree with deafposttrib. yes matthew 25:30 is speaking hell. many ifb, other baptist preacher are avoiding this matthew 24:48-51, matthew 25:30,40-46.

i notice many ifb,other preachers, teachers are pulling it out of the context what it saying. they picking one verse rather than follow the context of verses by verse what it is talking about.

brumleyj
ps27:1

 

[DeafPosttrib]

brumleyj,

Right.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Bartholomew,

You have been a great help. It seems as though the teachings of Zane Hodges are not an invention of his, but a further development of teachings by men who preceded him.

Hi Craig,

I'm very pleased that what little I posted was helpful to you. I was not aware of what Zane Hodges taught (I have never read anything of his), though I heard somewhere that he argues you can do bad works and still be a Christian (unlike those who teach if you're doing bad works you're probably unsaved). Is that right? If so, it seems that his way of thinking is similar (though in some ways a long way behind) to that of these other authors. I do not know if he got it from them, or simply found it in the Bible himself. Those authors taught that salvation was absolutely of grace, but that the place where works really mattered was at the judgement seat of Christ. Then our works will be rewarded or punished, as the case may be. BTW - does Hodges think that bad Christians will spend the entire millennium in outer darkness? Will they come out of it after the thousand years?

Also, please do not think I am an expert on any of these men. I have only read one book of Robert Govett ("Kingdom of God: Future"), one of George Henry Lang ("Firstborn Sons"), one of R.E. Neighbour ("If by any means") and most of one by D.M. Panton ("The Judgement Seat of Christ"), though all of these insist (with much biblical support) that the Christian can miss the millennial kingdom. I was only introduced to these authors by a pastor whom I met on the internet, called Joey Fuast, who teaches the same kind of thing. He has recently written a book on the subject called, "The Rod: Will God Spare It?". This is the book DeafPostTrib mentioned in this thread. Perhaps the most interesting part of the book is a long section at the end where he quotes a great deal of authors down through the years who taught this doctrine (in various degrees).

I have come across the names of Pember and Panton in past studies, but I don’t remember what they had to say. S.S. Craig and A. G. Tilney are strangers to me. But now, thanks to your generous help, I know where to get a whole lot of information.

I can tell you where you can find out more: Schoettle Publishing publishes a lot books by authors who taught believers could miss the kingdom. If you go to the following website they even have some books online:

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/booksonline.htm

Charles Spurgeon wrote of Robert Govett, “Mr. Govett wrote a hundred years before his time, and the day will come when his works will be treasured as sifted gold.”

I was just looking in that book I mentioned (The Rod: Will God Spare It?), and are two more quotes by Spurgeon about Govett:

We only express our heart when we say that we venerate and admire this author and preacher, whose works will be more appreciated by future generations than our own.

The day will come when the idols of the hour will perish, and the writings of such a man as R. Govett will be prized as much fine gold.

I am I correct in assuming that Neighbour, along with Hodges, as well as Govett et. al., believed that naughty Christians, after being punished during a future 1000 year period, will then spend eternity in heaven?

Well, they might have argued as to whether it was in heaven or the new earth - but YES, they belived they would be punished no more and be with God after the 1000 years.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />after being punished during a future 1000 year period, will then spend eternity in heaven?

You HAVE TO prove us a SOLID evidence verse in the Bible to saying it.</font>[/QUOTE]There are many passages that teach eternal salvation is by grace through faith alone, e.g. Acts 16:31. However, there are many verses that teach believers can be punished at the judgement seat / excluded from the millennium, e.g. Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Therefore believers MUST come out of that exclusion/punishment, otherwise there is no way to reconcile punishment based on works, and salvation NOT based on works.

Also, what does Jesus promise the saved? John 6:

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Clearly, salvation gives us a ressurection on the LAST DAY. There are many scriptures that teach believers can be banished from the millennium. So this verse DEMANDS that these believers are ressurected on the last day (which is 1000 years later).

Then there is 1 Cor 3, where we learn of the disobedient Chrsitian:

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Then Rev 20 stronly implies that there will be some raised 1000 years AFTER the first ressurection who WILL be found in the book of life:

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

From the above, it can easily be seen that disobedient Christians must come out of that punishment. Indeed, even if there were no verses that explicitly taught that someone would be punished AND later released, we would have to put the scriptures together and see that this is the only option. Indeed, every passage that teaches believers can be excluded on the basis of works, and every one that teaches they are saved on the basis of faith, proves this MUST be true. However, here are two Bible passages that suggest both punishment AND release:

Matthew 5:

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Matthew 18:

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

OK, now where's the biblical evidence that the banished WON'T be released??????

 

[Craigbythesea]

I was not aware of what Zane Hodges taught (I have never read anything of his), though I heard somewhere that he argues you can do bad works and still be a Christian (unlike those who teach if you're doing bad works you're probably unsaved). Is that right?

Yes, that is right, but his teachings go much further than that. He twists and distorts the Bible in an effort to make it agree with his blasphemous theology.

 

[Craigbythesea]

There are many passages that teach eternal salvation is by grace through faith alone, e.g. Acts 16:31.

I would prefer to say that there are several passages in the Bible that, when taken out of context, seem to some people to teach that eternal salvation is by grace through faith alone.

I would also like to say that, in the Bible, faith is NEVER alone, and that grace is the dynamic of God by which we are saved through faith.

James 2:24-26 is just as much a truth of the Bible as is Rom. 4:22.

 

[Craigbythesea]

However, there are many verses that teach believers can be punished at the judgement seat / excluded from the millennium

The millennium is not in view in any of these verses. What is in view is the final judgment in which disqualified believers will be sent to hell.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
I would also like to say that, in the Bible, faith is NEVER alone, and that grace is the dynamic of God by which we are saved through faith.

In the Bible, there are many people who are addressed as saved, brethren, believers, etc. who are doing bad works.

James 2:24-26 is just as much a truth of the Bible as is Rom. 4:22.

Yes, and Jeams 2 is talking of justification at the judgement seat of Christ:

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

So, unless you want a works-based salvation, in which our works justify us, and our forgiveness is conditional upon our forgiveness of others, this must be admitted to be the judgement seat of Christ - where Christ rewards each according to his works.

Romans 4 is every bit as much part of the Bible as James 2.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
The millennium is not in view in any of these verses.

Yes, it is. Most of the warnings are about the kingdom of heaven/God, which can be nothing else other than the millennium.

What is in view is the final judgment in which disqualified believers will be sent to hell.

So you are saying believers can be punished in hell for all infinity? How then are they saved? Or do you not beleive that salvation is only accounted to us by faith? What then do Roamsn 4:3-4 or Acts 16:31 etc. mean??? Also, how do you reconcile this with Rev 20, which CLEARLY states the dead will come OUT of hell (Hades), and then hell itself will be cast into the Lake of Fire??? The Bible is clear - NOBODY is cast into hell at the last judgement. In fact, they will all come OUT of hell! If the passage is about being cast into hell, it must be pre-mill, not post.

 

[Craigbythesea]

So, unless you want a works-based salvation, in which our works justify us, and our forgiveness is conditional upon our forgiveness of others, this must be admitted to be the judgement seat of Christ - where Christ rewards each according to his works.

I disagree. Paul and James compliment each other. We are saved by faith, but faith without works is dead. Hebrews 11 very clearly shows us the Biblical concept of faith. By faith, all of those people did something more than believe.

Whoops! It is 2:20 a.m. here on the west coast of the U.S.A. and I need to go to bed.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
We are saved by faith, but faith without works is dead.

Quite. It is dead because it does not grow. It does not bare fruit. But James is clear:

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You see, it is by faith AND works that one is justified at the judgement seat. Not just faith. Again,

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

The brethren are not told to "become" brethren. They are not told to "really" believe. They are told to "act". Why? Not so that they can get "real" faith. Not so they can keep "real" faith. But so that they can recieve mercy and be justified. It is clearly explained that the WORKS of the believer are what will give him mercy and justification, not the faith. Like Jesus said in Matt 6,

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

That's crystal clear: God's forgiveness of us is CONDITIONAL upon our forgiveness of others; not our faith. However, eternal salvation, and a resurrection on the last day, ARE by faith. Verily, Paul and James (and Jesus) are complementary.

 

[Craigbythesea]

You see, it is by faith AND works that one is justified at the judgement seat.

At the judgment seat?????? Where do you find this in James? How many times do you believe a person needs to be justified in God’s sight to spend eternity with Christ after death? One very common view is that a person needs to be justified only once, and that that justification is the initial step in the process of salvation, followed by sanctification and glorification.

How do you deal chronologically in the salvation process with the following verses?

Rom. 3:28. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Rom. 5:1. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2. through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.